Minor blues with major 4 and 5 chords??

[stax]

So we all know that some minor blues have all minor in the 1-4-5 positions but a lot have major or 9ths in the 4-5.
I've been playing both all my life but I have no idea of the theory behind the minor major changes so if anyone can enlighten me I'd appreciate it.

[Donelson]

There is a form of minor blues that is as you say; I minor, IV7, V7. Mentally I call this the "Hendrix minor blues" because he did a tune in that form. Forgotten the name of it. Doubtless Jimi didn't invent that, but it is a somewhat rare bird. I'll search through the recordings & see if I can find the tune I'm talking about.

I use this as a blowing form sometimes. Very fun!

P.S. Minor blues, other than this, always uses IVm. That's the normal sound.

[Donelson]

Well, I just searched & couldn't find the tune I was referring to. Pleasant effort, though. If I do come across it I'll PM. It's in there somewhere.

BTW, amazing how the early hippie rockers such as Hendrix, could use such deep & dark fuzzy distortion & not have a big roar of hum, with the single coils & old-timey "technology" that they had.

[Telenator]

Freddie King's San-Ho-Zay is a C minor, F7, G7 and sounds great!

[Samrsmiley]

Originally Posted by Donelson

Mentally I call this the "Hendrix minor blues.

That is mental man! :)

Chitlins Con Carne is like this, the old Kenny Burrell tune that SRV covered (among others).

[boneyguy]

The theory behind it is simple....it sounds good.

It's a sound I really like myself. The song that we play that comes to mind is "Gotta Serve Somebody' by Dylan.

[waparker4]

correct me if i am wrong but they are playing mostly the IV7 in this song... the descending bassline over the I minor, however, hits the minor 6th.


whereas this is all IV minor.. they just sound different, both good sounds

[jbmando]

Red House is I IV V.

[waparker4]

Originally Posted by jbmando

Red House is I IV V.

Ok but the bass line is going I VIIb VI VIb; and that last note gives it alot of minor tension I think.

[klasaine]

'Theoretically' it's the all minors that are a little weird - i iv v.
Minor Blues' that use major V are in keeping with the centuries old tradition of raising that leading tone a 1/2 step on a V chord utilizing 'harmonic' minor. Using a major or dominant IV just puts it in Dorian minor.

Jazzers will alternate freely between minor and dominant IV (iv) chords sometimes even using both in bars five and six.

*For a real interesting take on the minor blues check out Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" the melody sections in particular ...

[jefrs]

Fairly common for minor blues to have a major in treble and minor in bass or the other way around. It creates tension.

Django's "Minor Blues" is something-else.
http://www.brookadams.com/docs/djangos-minor-blues.pdf

[krowbot]

Originally Posted by klasaine

'Theoretically' it's the all minors that are a little weird - i iv v.
Minor Blues' that use major V are in keeping with the centuries old tradition of raising that leading tone a 1/2 step on a V chord utilizing 'harmonic' minor. Using a major or dominant IV just puts it in Dorian minor.

Jazzers will alternate freely between minor and dominant IV (iv) chords sometimes even using both in bars five and six.

*For a real interesting take on the minor blues check out Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" the melody sections in particular ...

Yep. Thats how I would attack it. When I hear a Imi to a IV7 (or dom9), I hear Santana's "Oye como va", definitely Dorian over the dom IV chord.

The major 3rd in the dom V chord is also the natural 7 in the I chord, which is missing due to the fact that the I chord is minor. So when that dom V chord appears, that natural 7 sticks out like a sore thumb. Playing the I chord's harmonic minor fits like a glove over the dom V chord.

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by waparker4

Ok but the bass line is going I VIIb VI VIb; and that last note gives it alot of minor tension I think.

The third is what makes a chord major or minor. No other note determines this aspect of a chord. The fact that the minor 6th is played has no bearing on whether the chord is major or minor. I'm not sure what you are hearing as "minor tension" but it is a simple walking bass line moving from one chord to the next according to the changes.

[jbmando]

BTW, when talking about music, theoretically, the Roman numerals are generally referring to chords. When we talk about scale degrees, we usually just use good old American (I know, they're Arabic) numerals. A bass line goes 1, b7, 6, b6...etc.

[slowpinky]

Birk's Works is a cool alternative too.. Im bVI7 V7

BTW, when talking about music, theoretically, the Roman numerals are generally referring to chords. When we talk about scale degrees, we usually just use good old American (I know, they're Arabic) numerals. A bass line goes 1, b7, 6, b6...etc.

Yeah I agree its certainly clearer that way - but not all texts follow that rule..

[Larry F]

I know I am weird and probably alone about this, but I don't "feel" San-Ho-Zay as minor, even though I have played it a lot. This is because the minor third, Eb if we are in C, is a very common note to use in blues in major keys. The question is, is this Eb a blue note in a major key, or a minor third in a minor key? One way that I determine keys is by mood. San-Ho-Zay is not like the minor moods of jazz, folk, or classical pieces.

As I say, I am probably alone in this.

[jbmando]

Larry is not weird. S-H-Z is I IV V as well.

[slowpinky]

As I say, I am probably alone in this.

I very much doubt it Larry - you're just articulating that the sound of a #9 or a b3 on a dom 7th chord is entirely different to a minor - which makes perfect sense to most of us. On a dominant chord some reference to a major 3rd will appear elsewhere in the chord - and that will change the mood.
I think some people take the presence of a min 3rd on the I too literally - that's all

The "Thrill is Gone" is minor.

I hear "Chitlins' both ways though - not because of the I7#9- but because you sometimes hear it with the bVI chord in bar 9 - that does give it a 'minor' mood.

[klasaine]

I've never thought of "San-Ho-Zay" as minor - .
It's really 'bluesy' but the changes are definitely I - IV - V (all dominant).

I think we need to agree that a m3 in the melody (or the solos) does not dictate major or minor tonality in a blues.