Backcycling

[ryokan]

Can someone explain backcycling chords? I've googled it and can't find a simple explanation...

I know it's a chord substitution technique to deal with a situation where you are holding one chord over a few measures, and that you 'backcycle' chords thru the circle of fifths. But that's about all I've got...

[jazztele]

Music tends to move in fourths...backcycling is just moving backwards through the key cycle to get where you want...

It's often used to set up the chord you want or to break up a long stretch of a chord...you can start as far away as you want, if you're clever...root motion is what we're talking about here...

You can set up any chord with it's V...you can set up that V with a ii...this can be done very simply or more drawn out...

So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb...follow the roots...right backwards through the cycle...if I started to use a tritone sub or two in there you'd really get some great motion...

[klasaine]

You do have to know what the diatonic maj, min, dom chords are in all 12 keys - as well as their tri-tone subs to use it effectively - Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5.

*It also helps to be able to know when it's cool to use a dom or alt dom chord in place of a m7 (vi and iii are the most common places to do it).

[ryokan]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Music tends to move in fourths...backcycling is just moving backwards through the key cycle to get where you want...

It's often used to set up the chord you want or to break up a long stretch of a chord...you can start as far away as you want, if you're clever...root motion is what we're talking about here...

You can set up any chord with it's V...you can set up that V with a ii...this can be done very simply or more drawn out...

So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb...follow the roots...right backwards through the cycle...if I started to use a tritone sub or two in there you'd really get some great motion...

OK, that makes sense, but how are you choosing the quality of those chords? I see why you are choosing those roots (going thru the cycle of fifths) but how do you decide what quality (maj, min, 7b5) each chord will have?

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by ryokan

OK, that makes sense, but how are you choosing the quality of those chords? I see why you are choosing those roots (going thru the cycle of fifths) but how do you decide what quality (maj, min, 7b5) each chord will have?

See my above post.
You have to know the 'quality' of the chords in a harmonized major scale at least. For both the target chord and where you're coming from.
(Blues For Alice by C. Parker is a great example of this - sometimes it's referred to as 'circle' changes.)
JT backcycled from the F w/in the F major scale and then adjusted to Bb by doing a ii - V just before the Bb. He sub'd a Cm7 and F7 for what would normally be a C7 and F (which would actually work fine too). This is why you really need to know your major scale harmony cold.

*Then melodic minor and then finally how you would harmonize modally.

[ryokan]

Originally Posted by klasaine

See my above post.
You have to know the 'quality' of the chords in a harmonized major scale at least. For both the target chord and where you're coming from.
(Blues For Alice by C. Parker is a great example of this - sometimes it's referred to as 'circle' changes.)
JT backcycled from the F w/in the F major scale and then adjusted to Bb by doing a ii - V just before the Bb. He sub'd a Cm7 and F7 for what would normally be a C7 and F (which would actually work fine too). This is why you really need to know your major scale harmony cold.

*Then melodic minor and then finally how you would harmonize modally.

I do know the quality of chords in a harmonized major scale. Seems like to backcycle from F to Bb would be : Edim7, Dm7, C7, BbM7. I must be missing something here...

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by ryokan

I do know the quality of chords in a harmonized major scale. Seems like to backcycle from F to Bb would be : Edim7, Dm7, C7, BbM7. I must be missing something here...

Yeah, definitely missing something.
Re-read the above posts.

[Scantron08]

I don't understand the first jump from the F to the E - all the others are in fourths. Why is that one not?

[ryokan]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Yeah, definitely missing something.
Re-read the above posts.

Duh, I was backcycling by degree, not by fourths.

I think what I'm missing is the V ii connection.

Jazztele wrote:
You can set up any chord with it's V...you can set up that V with a ii...this can be done very simply or more drawn out...

Can you provide the simplest set of chords (no subs) to backcycle from F to Bb?

[jazztele]

How about something like Gm7 to C7 to F7, setting up the Bb...

[ryokan]

Originally Posted by jazztele

How about something like Gm7 to C7 to F7, setting up the Bb...

Cool, I'll give that a try tonight when I have my guitar in hand. Thanks!

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by Scantron08

I don't understand the first jump from the F to the E - all the others are in fourths. Why is that one not?

just a jump to a chord diatonic to the F...Em7b5 would be the vii(a half diminished)

[slowpinky]

I don't understand the first jump from the F to the E - all the others are in fourths. Why is that one not?

Basic substitution is one way to explain that - and really all of the above examples. Em7b5 is the vii chord subbing for the V at the point that they change - but theres also the sheer compelling motion of semi tone root movement.

[klasaine]

Em7b5 is basically a C9 chord w/o a C.

E G Bb D = Em7b5
(C) E G Bb D = C9. And C would be a fifth from F.

[Leon Grizzard]

These guys are getting too fancy. You can precede any chord by its "V7" or properly speaking a dominant chord whose root is a fifth above the chord, ie: in the key of C, you can precede the V7, G7, with its V7, D7. You can precede the D7 with its V7, A7. And precede the A7 with its V7, E7, although that is fairly rare in most popular music (Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone, and 5 foot 2, Eyes of Blue).

To extend it further you can precede each of those V7s with the minor 7th chord whose root is a fifth above, ie precede the D7 by Am7, the A7 by Em7 and the E7 by Bm7.

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

[slowpinky]

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

Its true - married with 2 kids and working this crowd is nearly going in the too hard basket!

Im off to the Lydian Chromatic forum to show off with the other geeks...

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

To extend it further you can precede each of those V7s with the minor 7th chord whose root is a fifth above, ie precede the D7 by Am7, the A7 by Em7 and the E7 by Bm7.

That's kinda fancy Leon. In fact very 'jazzy' fancy .

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

I feel a t-shirt coming on.

I don't need no girlfriend.....
I just need mysteriously complicated Jazz!!

You funny Leon.

[Leon Grizzard]

"Look at these jazz people. Of course they play soft. It's a trick so you can't hear them" - Nigel Tufnel

Sorry for lashing out, guys. Had a semi-rough week. Never post after 9:00 p.m.

But all seriousness aside, how can a regular player use that knowledge, incorporating it in soloing or something? Or is it just compositional? On a good day, on a cycle of dominants progression, I can stick in a ii7 line, or maybe a note or two of it, before a dominant line, but that's about as far as I can take it, ie: play E7 A7 D7 G lines as Bm7 E7 Em7 A7 Am7 D7 G lines. That will work in a Western Swing tune like Right or Wrong.

[jazztele]

Good thing I'm married....I thought my example WAS simple.