7th note of a scale..

[Andy Summers]

Anyone ever notice, that while improving a solo over a given key, there are two notes that just sont sound quite right..mainly the 7th...or is it just me?? I know that usually the 7th chord in a key is diminished..is there a relation??

[Dana]

The 7th wants to resolve to 1, and the 4th wants to resolve to 3, for major chords anyway.

[krowbot]

I'm sure someone else can elaborate more on the subject. However, this is all due to the tension and release concepts that are found when digging into more specific improv.

Yes there is a relation. Remember, harmonization is based off of the scale. In this case, I am assuming you are talking about the major scale. So yes, in the harmonized major scale, the 7th chord is diminished.

Harmonization is based off of taking each note/degree in the scale, and then stacking thirds on top of it. After this process is completed we are left with these results.

Ima IImi IIImi IVma Vma VImi VIIdim

so for example in the key of C you have the harmonized scale :

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

A good example of tension and release would be to play a III VI II V I. This progression sounds complete...especially since it resolves to the home chord or the I chord.

If you were to play only the III VI II and V, you should "hear" how badly the V WANTS to resolve back to the I chord.

This chordal relationship is very similar when applying it to single string improvisation.

I hope this helps at least a little bit.

[Andy Summers]

Originally Posted by Dana

The 7th wants to resolve to 1, and the 4th wants to resolve to 3, for major chords anyway.

EXACTLY!! I am learning more and more every day, that I really need to know what notes are on what frets without thinking about it and the whole theory thing..and to not bend to the 7th.

Thanks for chiming in, Dana!

[Andy Summers]

Originally Posted by krowbot

I'm sure someone else can elaborate more on the subject. However, this is all due to the tension and release concepts that are found when digging into more specific improv.

Yes there is a relation. Remember, harmonization is based off of the scale. In this case, I am assuming you are talking about the major scale. So yes, in the harmonized major scale, the 7th chord is diminished.

Harmonization is based off of taking each note/degree in the scale, and then stacking thirds on top of it. After this process is completed we are left with these results.

Ima IImi IIImi IVma Vma VImi VIIdim

so for example in the key of C you have the harmonized scale :

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

A good example of tension and release would be to play a III VI II V I. This progression sounds complete...especially since it resolves to the home chord or the I chord.

If you were to play only the III VI II and V, you should "hear" how badly the V WANTS to resolve back to the I chord.

This chordal relationship is very similar when applying it to single string improvisation.

I hope this helps at least a little bit.

Thanks Krowbot..it definitely helps..I love this stuff :)

[jmaul]

Isn't there a whole subforum for theory?

[Andy Summers]

Originally Posted by jmaul

Isn't there a whole subforum for theory?

Mods can move it if theyd like...but thanks.

[emu!]

The flatted 7th...now THERE's a cool note. Makes me want to get drunk and dance like a fool.

[Andy Summers]

Originally Posted by emu!

The flatted 7th...now THERE's a cool note. Makes me want to get drunk and dance like a fool.

Works for me

[jazztele]

Just because chord changes stay in one key doesn't mean all the notes of the scale are cool to just "hang" on...

This is why I dislike looking for a catch all scale to just blow in over a set of chords...better to understand what's going on.

Sit down at a piano...play two keys right next to each other...hear that dissonance? This is what's happening anytime you hang on, say, a "B" note over any chord with a "C" in it in the same octave.

That little half-step dissonance is built right into the major scale, between the seventh and the tonic (the first note of the scale)

It's only nasty sounding in certain circumstances, mind you...I love putting these close intervals right inside a chord...

[jbmando]

I do not agree with your premise. There are no notes which inherently sound bad in improvisation. Sometimes a note works and sometimes it doesn't , but it's not the note's fault, it's the composition's. As to bending the 7th - why not? It's done all the time. Sounds good in the right context.

[grinchmonkey]

Originally Posted by jbmando

As to bending the 7th - why not? It's done all the time. Sounds good in the right context.

Like say you were going to the V chord.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by jazztele

It's only nasty sounding in certain circumstances, mind you...I love putting these close intervals right inside a chord...

So true. If you play a close voiced chord on a piano, it sounds perfectly fine:

G-B-C-E [CMaj7]

This is harder to finger on a guitar, of course. The B-C interval inside there sounds cool to me. And if you noodle up and down (CMaj Dm7 Em7 Dm7...) it maintains its tastiness!

G-B-C-E
A-C-D-F
B-D-E-G
A-C-D-F
G-B-C-E

No complicated chords or progression there, just the major scale.

[superchicken_VI]

Originally Posted by emu!

The flatted 7th...now THERE's a cool note. Makes me want to get drunk and dance like a fool.

Flat 7 was going to be my tip too!

The 7 is touchy unless you're playing in majors, and rarely does that happen. Modal is much more fun, even over a major progression.

[jazztele]

Huh?

[Andy Summers]

Thank you all for your comments...maybe it was a dumb question..but Im cool with it..this is how I learn..keep 'em coming!!

[ricks1]

Have you tryed G Major Diatonic Chords G A B C D E F#m7b5.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Huh?

Double "huh"?

I play a lot of blues and funk and my attitude is that every note is available for me to flavour the stew with.

I use the maj7 scale tone in blues quite a bit. I don't typically hang on it (sometimes I do) but it sets up a nice release to the tonic. Maj7-9-1 or maj7-9-b9-1 or 6-b7-7-1 etc. if phrased appropriately works in a blues. Usually I would play the maj7 on an up beat so I land on a chord tone on a down beat. But really I find as I grow as a musician there are less and less 'rules' other than make it musical and that pretty much means learning how to phrase and more specifically how to end a phrase I would say. It's amazing what I can get away with at a blues jam that the audience's ear will accept as long as I finish a phrase with something that sounds even vaguely like a cliche blues lick.

[Andy Summers]

Maybe I should have phrased my question differently. I know there are all kinds of applications where anything works..Im really not as dumb as the question sounds. I know the 7th works fine as a passing note or whatever..but hanging on it just sounds off.

I appreciate everyones comments. I have ben playing by "feel" and learning othe peoples music for so long..that I figured Id better start learning actual theory..and holy cr@p, there is soooo much to learn. One answer leads to 10 other questions. Working on modes now with my teacher..my head is about to explode!

[Andy Summers]

Originally Posted by ricks1

Have you tryed G Major Diatonic Chords G A B C D E F#m7b5.

Working on all the modes now, ricks..but I will try this one next..thank you :)