Getting Out of the Intermediate Player-Funk- Fretboard Mapping Help?

[AlexArkansas]

So I'm one of those solid intermediate players who knows my scales, chords, riffs, etc, but just can't move around the fretboard fluidly. I think the problem most of us at this level face is that we see a bunch of boxes (like the pentatonic) but have troube connecting them. Therefore, we're randomly jumping from one 'safe zone' to another rather than seeing the fretboard in an integrated way. I've learned the CAGED system (somewhat helpful I suppose), read Pat Martino's articles on triads (mostly confused the hell out of me), and practice scales in all positions across the fretboard until my hands cramp up, but I'm not sure I'm any closer to achieving fluency. Can some of you advanced guitarists talk about what you think helped you make the leap?

[rave]

I am not advanced but this is what I try to do to move around the neck. I mostly play blues. Using a backing track

I play a chorus in the familiar box.

Then I play a chorus moving through the other four positions

Then I play using the major pentatonic on the one and minor the rest of the way again using all of the positions

Next I will play a lick in one place and then repeat it in another position.

Next I will start a lick one place and finish in the other boxes.

Next mix minor and major all positions

I will also try using other keys, so try to play a B minor or E minor pentatonic over an A blues. Again using all positions. Then mix A and B A and E etc.

Hope this helps

[Mjark]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish but the smaller moves you make the hipper it is usually. Like a line with the flat 7 for the IV and then over the IV, one that ends on the major 3 a half a step down.

[boneyguy]

CAGED is great but I don't care for the way it's typically taught. I think of CAGED as octave shapes. Instead of seeing CAGED as these larger scale patterns I think if you break it down to it's most fundament component, the octave, then you can very quickly start to see the connections all over the fretboard. To me the octave is the master pattern for making connections.

[Mjark]

That's how I have always viewed the fret board too.

[chabby]

Same here with the octive view.

Other than jazz, most genres of music are constructed (fortunately) so that you don't always have to have that many scales running through your head to try and connect.
Sure, you can interpret things in new ways, but it always comes back to taste and familiarity for the type of genre you're playing in. For example Blues - if you are playing in a certain key (which you always are) you only usually alternate through minor or major scales, with a few odd ball things you can add for your own spin, or because tthe song calls for it (like mixolydian type riffs over blues progressions, or parts of scales you don't normally see standard in blues, but they just work, like SRV's use of mixolydian in the tune "Empty Arms".

It's great to practice scales, but juat as important to know where or when they can be used. It usually comes naturally in the feel as you get wound up, especially in a rocking blues shuffle. But not always intuitive toward the very basics, which is why I cite "Empty Arms" as an enlightening tune for me.

But there is something to what Mjark state's above in that "smaller moves are usually hipper anyway, again "Empty Arms" is a shining example of that in that it's in the standard C box (8th fret) of the pentatonic scale, but makes use of the Mixolydian in a way that shows will answer a part of your question. For almost everything but Jazz, it applies pretty strongly. It's not so much what you play, but how you play it. Meaning that in the Tune "Empty Arms" SRV doesn't have go all up and down the neck playing scales, because he puts so much charchter and feeling into a compact position.

I'm not just a blues player at all, I play country, rock and a bit of swing too (learning), but blues is a prime example of why it's important to make each note meaningful.
That doesn't always take alot of linking of scales, especially if you know all the scales you talked of. Maybe concentrating on just one or two is usally enough for most Rock, blues, country and pop. I like to find ways to juice up country sometimes, if theirs a tasteful opportunity to thrown in bluesy stuff. Alterantively playing country music has spiced up my blues playing to because I'll trhow in more major stuff nowadays if the mood and feel of the song can take it.

I know I didn't answer your question completely, because there is no short answer without getting into a bunch of theory. That's why making use of what you do know now is often best done by mixing things up a little between genres. (Rock, Blues, Rockabilly, Country, pop, Soul, R&B etc)

But if you are purely a jazz or prog rock player, then that's a different deal and alot of theory is warranted to answer completely.

[JayFreddy]

Working on my reading actually helped open up the fretboard for me. As practice, I'll try and play a particular passage in as many different places on the fretboard as possible.

I also think knowing where your octaves are is invaluable, but learn the other intervals too...

As far as connecting the CAGED shapes, I use the 2-3/3-2 pentatonics a lot. You probably know these, but if not, this ought to help.

In Cmaj/Am:

2-3 diagonal pentatonic
---------------------------8-10-12--
----------------------8-10----------
----------------5-7-9---------------
------------5-7---------------------
------3-5-7-------------------------
--3-5-------------------------------

3-2 diagonal pentatonic
---------------------------------------------15-17--
-----------------------------------13-15-17---------
----------------------------12-14-------------------
------------------10-12-14--------------------------
-----------10-12------------------------------------
--8-10-12-------------------------------------------

[Budda]

Yah, those "Diagonal" forms really help to open things up!

Also, maybe try limiting your self andfinding new pathways around the Fretboard?

Try this. Take any Phrase/Lick/Riff, and learn how to play it exactly, but only using 1 String. This will force you to move Up and Down the Fretboard, as opposed to staying in a comfortable "Box".

Also, try Singing or Humming something when the guitar is no where around. Keep repeating it over and over, until it's easy for you to recall. THEN....go get the Guitar and try to play exactly what you Sang/Hummed. And don't quit until you can do it. Repeat this process forever. Really helps to keep you learning new things!

[klasaine]

All good. I like the octave recognition too. Definitely works for 'sign posts' so to speak.

Me personally - and this may not necessarily apply to you right now - when I need to really learn a tune, even if I'll only ever play it one key - I work it out in at least 3 keys and maybe even play with a capo somewhere.
If it's just a lick or a cool turn-a-round ... all 12 keys and usually two different sets of strings.
A transcribed solo - usually one other key (a forth or fifth away generally).

I was forced to do this in my early musical education. I hated dealing with it then but now of course understand the benefits of such work.

[Tarnisher]

Wow, it's amazing how differently people can approach the same thing. I don't know any scales, and I couldn't tell you what key I'm playing in half the time.

I listen to the other instruments, put my fingers on the strings, and play. If the note I start on sounds wrong, it's just a matter of playing something that puts in a context that works.

[klasaine]

Yeah, but I think for the purposes of 'this' thread we're all tryin' to start on a good note.

[ac15]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Yeah, but I think for the purposes of 'this' thread we're all tryin' to start on a good note.

[Larry F]

I have two sets of responses.

First, trying playing a scale up and down the length of the first string, then second,..., then sixth. As you do this, name the notes aloud. Now, play the scale in second position, third, then fourth, naming the notes aloud. Next, play the scale on the sixth string up and down, then fifth string,..., then first string, naming the notes aloud. Now play the scale in 5th, 6th, and 7th positions, etc., etc., etc. Don't worry about timing or hesitating, as this is for brain technique, not hands.

Second, create some licks that incorporate linear movement that links one position to another. Practice each one until it is fluid and natural.

My rule of thumb is if something that you want to be able to play feels awkward, to work on it until it feels natural. When something does not feel natural, then I don't think I would play something like it on the bandstand. The awkwardness is a sign that says road closed ahead. This means that not only will I avoid playing something like that, I will not even be able to "hear" it in my mind will improvising. It's a mind/body dualism issue for me.

Finally, I have found that if there is some weakness that I have, it helps to find an example of something that is awkward or difficult, and just zero in on that, right then and there. If you cannot connect shapes very well, then make up a lick that does just that and work on it until it become reflexive.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by Tarnisher

Wow, it's amazing how differently people can approach the same thing. I don't know any scales, and I couldn't tell you what key I'm playing in half the time.

I listen to the other instruments, put my fingers on the strings, and play. If the note I start on sounds wrong, it's just a matter of playing something that puts in a context that works.

I'm all for anything that works. However, this method seems a little hunt and peck to me. When I have been in that situation, I avoid really strong, decisive, impactful phrases. Not knowing the fingerboard can make people sound tentative and unsure. This can lead to great music, but it can also close the door to other great music. I know how you feel, though, and it's great that you adapt and make it work. That can lead to interesting, exploratory stuff.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I have two sets of responses.

First, trying playing a scale up and down the length of the first string, then second,..., then sixth. As you do this, name the notes aloud. Now, play the scale in second position, third, then fourth, naming the notes aloud. Next, play the scale on the sixth string up and down, then fifth string,..., then first string, naming the notes aloud. Now play the scale in 5th, 6th, and 7th positions, etc., etc., etc. Don't worry about timing or hesitating, as this is for brain technique, not hands.

Second, create some licks that incorporate linear movement that links one position to another. Practice each one until it is fluid and natural.

My rule of thumb is if something that you want to be able to play feels awkward, to work on it until it feels natural. When something does not feel natural, then I don't think I would play something like it on the bandstand. The awkwardness is a sign that says road closed ahead. This means that not only will I avoid playing something like that, I will not even be able to "hear" it in my mind will improvising. It's a mind/body dualism issue for me.

Finally, I have found that if there is some weakness that I have, it helps to find an example of something that is awkward or difficult, and just zero in on that, right then and there. If you cannot connect shapes very well, then make up a lick that does just that and work on it until it become reflexive.

+1 Not surprisingly these are all really great suggestions.

[slowpinky]

CAGED is great but I don't care for the way it's typically taught. I think of CAGED as octave shapes. Instead of seeing CAGED as these larger scale patterns I think if you break it down to it's most fundament component, the octave, then you can very quickly start to see the connections all over the fretboard. To me the octave is the master pattern for making connections.

Indeed - its the position of octaves in the position that determines the physical shape of the chords and the surrounding scales and if its not being taught that way - its missing the point - or rather the point is always there anyway, but just not acknowledged.

One thing I will say about the 'boxes' or 'cages' we play in is that many guitarists are weak at intervallic work - restricted to stepwise movement or the inherent intervals of the pentatonic - and have a limited way of playing whats under their fingers much of the time. I've referred this clip before and I wont apologise for it - its still a great habit breaker for many of my students - as it was for me. From about 2;10 on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKSg2kw7KfA

[klasaine]

That set of Scofield lessons is possibly the best set of actual 'jazz' improv instructional videos for guitarists.
I've owned it since the late 80's and I learn something new from it every time I see it.
Pointless to say but the guy 'knows his notes and intervals'.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

Indeed - its the position of octaves in the position that determines the physical shape of the chords and the surrounding scales and if its not being taught that way - its missing the point - or rather the point is always there anyway, but just not acknowledged.

Yeah, I've ranted on about this a few times here. I think making the CAGED patterns explicit to guitarists is a really great thing but it makes me nuts that people come away thinking that CAGED is about scale patterns or chord shapes when it's really about 5 octave shapes as you've pointed out.

I blame the popularity of the Fretboard Logic books because scale and chord shapes is how CAGED is presented in that series of books and subsequently most other CAGED books and videos present exactly the same idea. That's how I was introduced to it initially. Fortunately it quickly became apparant to me that the octave shapes were the engine of the thing and the very thing that makes it such a powerfully useful roadmap of the fretboard. A meta-pattern - a pattern that organizes all other patterns.

The next step for people to realize is that the octave shapes of CAGED don't just apply to the tonic of whatever particular scale you're playing but every scale degree has an octave shape or CAGED shape. It sounds like a very basic realization but most people miss that as well. That's when the fretboard really opens I think in regards to using octaves as 'sign post' as Ken as said.

And that's all I've got to say about that (for now.)

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by AlexArkansas

So I'm one of those solid intermediate players who knows my scales, chords, riffs, etc, but just can't move around the fretboard fluidly. I think the problem most of us at this level face is that we see a bunch of boxes (like the pentatonic) but have troube connecting them. Therefore, we're randomly jumping from one 'safe zone' to another rather than seeing the fretboard in an integrated way.

To me it almost sounds like you gon't actually know the notes on the fretboard yet.

I suggest you get out of your comfort zone(s), and play something completely different than what you are used to. This will force you to see, hear, and think about things differently.

[slowpinky]

That set of Scofield lessons is possibly the best set of actual 'jazz' improv instructional videos for guitarists.

+1