Getting Out of the Intermediate Player-Funk- Fretboard Mapping Help?

[Tarnisher]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Yeah, but I think for the purposes of 'this' thread we're all tryin' to start on a good note.

That works too, and is easy enough. Most of the time you can select any note that comes on a fret with a dot and be okay.

I'm just fascinated by how differently we approach the same thing. I get in the car and drive, confident that one road will lead to another, and that I'll end up somewhere interesting if I keep selecting the better looking tine each time I come to a fork. It seems you guys like to map everything out.

The OP sounded like he was feeling stuck and wanted advice. My advice is to just put your fingers on your guitar and play. It might take a while before you can do that and have it work, but when you can, you'll have another way of making music that might feel liberating.

[Tarnisher]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I'm all for anything that works. However, this method seems a little hunt and peck to me. When I have been in that situation, I avoid really strong, decisive, impactful phrases. Not knowing the fingerboard can make people sound tentative and unsure. This can lead to great music, but it can also close the door to other great music. I know how you feel, though, and it's great that you adapt and make it work. That can lead to interesting, exploratory stuff.

When you say "knowing the fingerboard," what do you mean? Do you mean knowing the name of each note?

I'm like an illiterate person who knows his way all around the city, but couldn't tell you the names of the streets. It's not that I don't know the fretboard, it's that I know it in a different way. I got to know it by wandering around it, getting lost, and finding my way out.

I've since learned the names of some of the major streets, and I agree that that's useful. But I'm glad I have an intuitive sense of where I am and how to get home.

[krowbot]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

CAGED is great but I don't care for the way it's typically taught. I think of CAGED as octave shapes. Instead of seeing CAGED as these larger scale patterns I think if you break it down to it's most fundament component, the octave, then you can very quickly start to see the connections all over the fretboard. To me the octave is the master pattern for making connections.

CAGED is actually based off of the octave shapes that you theoretically would see from open chords. Alot of people may disgree with learning the CAGED system, but it actually works. I also think that many people don't know that the CAGED system actually helps you learn not only scales. You can also map out chords, scales and arpeggios.

From there, you can also map out the CAGED system to fit with static chord playing and improv. For instance you can map out all dom7th chord shapes with its partnering mixolydian pattern and dom7th arpeggios. It practically goes on for all mode related relationships.


At first the CAGED system seems like 5 octave shapes that you memorize. Within each of these 5 shapes, you learn chords, scales and arpeggios. In fact this does seem like a "boxed" in way of learning. However, I get my students to connect patterns 1 and 2, then 3 and 4, and so on. Before you know it the whole CAGED system is just one big pattern.


Yes there are other ways of learning the neck. It all comes down to whatever works for you. The problem is, the CAGED system isn't always taught to its full potention in my opinion. I've got 9 year old students who got this stuff nailed down. Any "packaged' system has a sense of roboticism. That's why it's important to recognize this as a fast way to learn chord shapes, scales, and arpeggios. Once that is done, it is important to concentrate on application.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Tarnisher

Most of the time you can select any note that comes on a fret with a dot and be okay.

ok then

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by klasaine

ok then

Ahhh yup.

Man I sure hope the guy who made my guitar got the dots on the right frets.

[klasaine]

Seriously, I have a Goya steel string (mid 60's?) with a fret dot at the 10th not the 9th fret.

Nylon string guitars generally have no fret markers at all - very Zen, the sound of no note playing.

[Tarnisher]

Try playing a fretless guitar!

[klasaine]

My fretless has dots.

*we all get where you're coming from Tarnisher but this is the Theory and Technique section of the forum. In here we tend to shy away from the "just play and you'll figure it out" or "the beauty of it is in the getting lost" type of discussions. Those are a 'given' and great for learning about a city or when you're sittin around pickin by yourself. Everybody does that and everybody is aware that you can do that.

I think, at this point in his musical development, the OP wants to get past that.

To use your own driving/directions analogy ...
He wants to be a cab driver or a cop or an EMT (or maybe just be able to explain to someone how to get from a train stop to his house) - so he wants/needs to be able to know exactly where the corner of Schenectady and Cortelyou is and what's there.

[AlexArkansas]

Didn't mean to start a theory vs. intuition debate, and for what it's worth, I appreciate Tarnisher's insights, even though I know I'll never get as good as I want to be without some sort of system. It fascinates me that guys like Jeff Beck and Albert Lee can play like they do without knowing what they're doing in a traditional sense.
So if I'm understanding you theory guys right, CAGED isn't just a means of learning all the positions one can play a major chord in, but a way of identifying octave patterns, which makes sense of the different positions that scales are played in, by showing the shapes that need to be connected in different ways. Am I in the ballpark?
Last question for now: are excercises like the Scofield vid as useful to someone playing country/rock stuff as jazz? I'd love to be able to play jazz, but for what I'm serious about, I'm probably not going to be connecting 13th and #9 arpeggios at breakneck speed.

[McGlamRock]

I found memorizing many chord shapes all over the neck to be very useful. When I first began this I was just arpeggiating basic triads all over the place (pretty vanilla sounding). But as I got more comfortable and learned more shapes, I was able to concentrate more on adding colorful extensions and resolving to chord tones while throwing some of my favorite licks and cliches in there too. CAGED is a great first step for this, but there are a lot more than 5 ways to play each chord.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by AlexArkansas

Last question for now: are excercises like the Scofield vid as useful to someone playing country/rock stuff as jazz? I'd love to be able to play jazz, but for what I'm serious about, I'm probably not going to be connecting 13th and #9 arpeggios at breakneck speed.

That's a matter of personal perception and then absorption, application and implementation.

If you learn one cool move over a minor or dom7 chord that you can apply into even just a blues tune then yeah, it's worth it. For me I've always felt that if I get even just one lick, line, chord voicing or concept out of a book, lesson, DVD, etc. it's more than paid for itself. Case in point: I've had the John McLaughlin "this is the way I do it" set of DVD's now for about a year. I'm still working on the 1st section of the 1st lesson of the 1st DVD. And I'm finding ways to use the miniscule amount I'm working with/on in every friggin' type of music I play. Cats like McLaughlin and Scofield are DEEP! An hour or two of 'repeatable' instruction from them can fill several lifetimes of study.

*And this is maybe here nor there for anyone but me(?) but I find that when I work on harder things, whether it be Jazz improv, classical guitar pieces, a chord melody or a Doc Watson solo ... the meat and potatos rock, blues and soul pretty much takes care of itself. YMMV.

[slowpinky]

It fascinates me that guys like Jeff Beck and Albert Lee can play like they do without knowing what they're doing in a traditional sense.

I guess the real question is whether or not you believe those guys would have ignored the knowledge that is so readily available now , had it been so accessible when they were up and coming players. I dont believe that. I do know (from experience) that it seems to get harder to adopt and apply new knowledge as you get older - but Scofield is a great example for me of someone who has even in his later years , built an instantly recogniseable voice on the instrument from a really comprehensive harmonic knowledge - the guy also has a killer feel and squeezes great sounds out of the instrument.

[klasaine]

+1 to the above post.

I know from personal experience that in fact yes, Jeff Beck and Albert Lee actually can tell you what note they're playing - if asked to stop look and tell you. They can't necessarily articulate 'academic harmony and theory' in traditional terms but they know EXACTLY what they're doing. They have amazingly honed ears and a deep sense of musicality.
And, as has been reiterated ad nauseum, guys of that caliber don't 'hunt and peck'. They've learned, by practicing and listening incessantly for years, how to pick good notes ALL THE TIME.

*You don't have to call it anything - or, you can call it 'Jane' if you want - but if you don't put in the work and the time, you won't really play anything worthy of any term.

[ryokan]

Originally Posted by AlexArkansas

So I'm one of those solid intermediate players who knows my scales, chords, riffs, etc, but just can't move around the fretboard fluidly. I think the problem most of us at this level face is that we see a bunch of boxes (like the pentatonic) but have troube connecting them. Therefore, we're randomly jumping from one 'safe zone' to another rather than seeing the fretboard in an integrated way. I've learned the CAGED system (somewhat helpful I suppose), read Pat Martino's articles on triads (mostly confused the hell out of me), and practice scales in all positions across the fretboard until my hands cramp up, but I'm not sure I'm any closer to achieving fluency. Can some of you advanced guitarists talk about what you think helped you make the leap?

I would suggest that you find a good teacher. I think it's almost impossible to learn theory from the internet. Nothing takes the place of sitting with a human being who knows this stuff and is able to guide you through it.

[gatimberframer]

Originally Posted by rave

Next I will play a lick in one place and then repeat it in another position.

Next I will start a lick one place and finish in the other boxes.

This is helpful.

[Samrsmiley]

The suggestions so far are great, I have one to add-
Try playing your vocabulary or licks in different positions. Take one short lick and try playing it starting on each finger. Then move it to a different string and do the same thing. You'll get your ears really in tune with the axe and understand how to make MUSIC with it rather than just running a bunch of scales (scales are fine though! :) ). It really works!

[Samrsmiley]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

I guess the real question is whether or not you believe those guys would have ignored the knowledge that is so readily available now , had it been so accessible when they were up and coming players. I dont believe that. I do know (from experience) that it seems to get harder to adopt and apply new knowledge as you get older - but Scofield is a great example for me of someone who has even in his later years , built an instantly recogniseable voice on the instrument from a really comprehensive harmonic knowledge - the guy also has a killer feel and squeezes great sounds out of the instrument.

I Think when you hear guys who 'don't know what they're doing' they usually have such a deep connection with the notes and sounds that they bypass the naming process-so not exactly helpful to communicate what they're doing, but they still know what they're playing. Two other guys who tend to fall into this mythical category are Van Halen and Wes Montgomery. But there's absolutely no way they don't understand what's going on-they might just have a different way of describing it with words.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Samrsmiley

I Think when you hear guys who 'don't know what they're doing' they usually have such a deep connection with the notes and sounds that they bypass the naming process-so not exactly helpful to communicate what they're doing, but they still know what they're playing. Two other guys who tend to fall into this mythical category are Van Halen and Wes Montgomery. But there's absolutely no way they don't understand what's going on-they might just have a different way of describing it with words.

Exactly. To reference the Mick Goodrick pages you scanned ... you can call it Fred and Mary if you want. It doesn't matter the term when you can use it/apply it in a musical situation.
Too often novice players make the mistake of thinking that just because Django didn't call it a Dm11b5 that he was as ignorant about music as they are.
I always say that when you've got the ears of Chet Baker or when you write a tune as good as 'wind cries mary' then you can eschew the theory. Until then I don't know, maybe a little education wouldn't hurt - ?

[slowpinky]

Yep theres not much in a name.. In fact names can be misleading. But I figured out a long time ago that if I was going to understand some new sounds, that I was going to have to ask some questions... That means learning the collective language of music theory if you want yourself to be understood. Perhaps if I had the kind of innate understanding of music that Wes or Jimi had, I'd have answered those questions myself in my own way .. But I aint...although I realise there things I understand now that I constantly seek words for in order to teach! But yes , Its fascinating and also strangely comforting to think that there are a handful of players who codify the music in such an individual way. Having said that there is some great video footage of Wes teaching a Dutch rhythm section some tunes for a TV show.. He knows the chord names, keys and for the rest the guitar does the talking.. The point being that the band are experienced enough to hear exactly what he means..

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

there is some great video footage of Wes teaching a Dutch rhythm section some tunes for a TV show.. He knows the chord names, keys and for the rest the guitar does the talking.. The point being that the band are experienced enough to hear exactly what he means..

Yes! 'Live in 65' - awesome Euro TV footage of Wes.
It's kinda hard to hear him but he's says something like "yeah, iii vi ii V at the end of ?" and something to the effect of "you can do ya know Coltrane changes here too".
Anyone who tries to argue that Wes Montgomery didn't know music is completely deluding themselves. No, he didn't 'read' music or at least not sight read it but he ABSOLUTELY knew everything he was doing.