Chord Inversion Help?

[upinthemteles]

Originally Posted by Mjark

If you don't think that way it can get really confusing trying to think about harmonizing a scale for instance. I probably used Db because I was thinking about the way the bass line descends, or I'm just a dummy.

So harmonizing a scale, you mean playing chords for the notes right? Like key of C would be, Cmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7.... and so on. I don't really see how it would help to think of things in this way for that.

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

I kinda get it now. So key of G has F# as the seventh, can't say Gb because we already used G. Key of Bb the fourth is Eb as D is the third and we can't say D#.

So key of C, if there's a flat fifth what would it be? Db or C#?

Neither. The flat fifth of C is Gb. FWIW, flat anythings are always written with the flat symbol unless they were sharp to begin with. The fifth of B is F# so the flat fifth would be written "F."

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

So key of C, if there's a flat fifth what would it be? Db or C#?

The flat fifth in the key of C is Gb ... but ... often when people talk about a 7b5 chord, it's actually a 7th chord with a #11. That's the weight of history there.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

I kinda get it now. So key of G has F# as the seventh, can't say Gb because we already used G. Key of Bb the fourth is Eb as D is the third and we can't say D#.

Yes, that's it exactly.

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

So key of C, if there's a flat fifth what would it be? Db or C#?

As others have pointed out Gb would be the flat five in C. The reason being that G is five letter names above C. It's that simple. C-D-E-F-G. So a flat five above C couldn't be F# (even though it's enharmonic) because the letter F is four letter names above C so F# has to be some kind of fourth above C. In this case it's an augmented fourth.

So knowing this we can make some really fast calculations when figuring this stuff out. This is simply a memorization game. For example, if someone asks you what is a minor 6th above Db the first 'calculation' you make is to know that 6 letter names above the letter D is going to be B. So the answer has to be some sort of B. In this case it would be Bbb. So a major 6th about D# is still going to be some sort of B. A maj 6th above Bbb is also going to be some sort of B. I'm sure you get the pattern now, right? All we're doing is counting the distance of how many letter names any two notes are from each other.

You see in a sense spelling and naming this stuff doesn't even really have anything to do with music. It's a convention that was developed over time as a way of talking about music. Music is a sound experience but what we're describing is a way of talking about that auditory experience. And as someone once said "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". It only serves to provide a visual and verbal representation of what is fundamentally an experience of sound. And as a representation it will always be flawed and limited in it's accuracy and usefulness. But it's important to know especially if you want to communicate musical ideas to another person without having to pull a guitar or a tuba out of your pocket.

[upinthemteles]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

Yes, that's it exactly.



As others have pointed out Gb would be the flat five in C. The reason being that G is five letter names above C. It's that simple. C-D-E-F-G. So a flat five above C couldn't be F# (even though it's enharmonic) because the letter F is four letter names above C so F# has to be some kind of fourth above C. In this case it's an augmented fourth.

You see in a sense spelling and naming this stuff doesn't even really have anything to do with music. It's a convention that was developed over time as a way of talking about music. Music is a sound experience but what we're describing is a way of talking about that auditory experience. And as someone once said "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". It only serves to provide a visual and verbal representation of what is fundamentally an experience of sound. And as a representation it will always be flawed and limited in it's accuracy and usefulness. But it's important to know.

Yeah I know that Gb is the flat fifth of C, I just had a brain fart.

Thanks, I get it now.

So how about those double flats I've seen around?

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

Yeah I know that Gb is the flat fifth of C, I just had a brain fart.

Thanks, I get it now.

So how about those double flats I've seen around?

Yeah, I figured you just had a brain fart.

I've added to my post above while you were posting this so maybe I've already answered your question. Let me know if I have or not.

[upinthemteles]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

A maj 6th above Bbb is also going to be some sort of B. I'm sure you get the pattern now, right? All we're doing is counting the distance of how many letter names any two notes are from each other.

Thanks for your help. You had me right up til this part. So a maj 6th above Bbb would be six letters away, B C D E F G

Wouldn't it have to be some kind of G? Gb to be specific. And major 6th above Bbb is making my head hurt haha.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

Thanks for your help. You had me right up til this part. So a maj 6th above Bbb would be six letters away, B C D E F G

Wouldn't it have to be some kind of G? Gb to be specific. And major 6th above Bbb is making my head hurt haha.

Yes. That's correct. That's why I made that 'mistake' on purpose just so I could test you. Sure that's it. It was a test

I actually meant to type Dbb. My turn for a brain fart typo. Good catch. It really does show that you've got the gist of this thing very quickly.

And major 6th above Bbb is making my head hurt haha

The point of me choosing a brain hurting example was to show the simplicity of the idea. Counting letter names. Figuring out how many sharps or flats to add to alter a note is simply the second step in the process. Eventually it will all just be instant recall.

The place to start I think is with the major scales. For example in the maj 6th above a Bbb example I know that in the key of Bb the maj 6th above the tonic is a G. That G is diatonic to Bb. So I simply add a flat to adjust that G down a half step to maintain a maj 6th interval over a Bbb.

Bb - G = maj 6th
Bbb - Gb = maj 6th

You can see how the congruency is maintained right?

[upinthemteles]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

Yes. That's correct. That's why I made that 'mistake' on purpose just so I could test you. Sure that's it. It was a test

I actually meant to type Dbb. My turn for a brain fart typo. Good catch. It really does show that you've got the gist of this thing very quickly.




The point of me choosing a brain hurting example was to show the simplicity of the idea. Counting letter names. Figuring out how many sharps or flats to add to alter a note is simply the second step in the process. Eventually it will all just be instant recall.

The place to start I think is with the major scales. For example in the maj 6th above a Bbb example I know that in the key of Bb the maj 6th above the tonic is a G. That G is diatonic to Bb. So I simply add a flat to adjust that G down a half step to maintain a maj 6th interval over a Bbb.

Bb - G = maj 6th
Bbb - Gb = maj 6th

You can see how the congruency is maintained right?

Yes, I see the congruency now. I had to look up the work congruency, but I see yeah. So... Cbb - Abb = maj 6th

Is Cbb even a thing? Does it just keep going? Fbbbb, B###. Haha

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by upinthemteles

Yes, I see the congruency now. I had to look up the work congruency, but I see yeah. So... Cbb - Abb = maj 6th

Is Cbb even a thing? Does it just keep going? Fbbbb, B###. Haha

So... Cbb - Abb = maj 6th

That is correct sir. You've got the congruency figured out.

Yes Cbb is a thing. And theoretically I suppose #'s and b's could go on and on but they don't for practical reasons.

[Scantron08]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

Most of the time I'm using dom7 type inversions (the blues, right). I just sat down some years ago and figured out how to do them up and down the neck on different string sets.

. . .

That's how I personally use and think of triad type inversions.

Great explanation, and easy to understand; however, since this seems to be a thread with a group that appreciates the nuances of being accurate, I have to point out that dom7 chords aren't triads. They are extended chords with four notes, not three. Thus, there are three inversions of these chords, instead of just two like a triad has. Not nit-picking, but trying to add to the OP's complete understanding of all the great info on here in response to his question. (I also thought for years that "inversions" was a silly word, when we should just be saying "versions" ... until I realized that what we mean by that is that we're actually *inverting* the chord. D'oh!)

It also took me years to understand why Db would be wrong instead of C# in the key of A (or why we would ever say things like "double-flat" or "E-sharp"), but then the other day, bam, I finally got it. I think it's because I've finally made it my goal to read standard notation for guitar - when I started studying that, it made perfect sense. Those explaining it on here have nailed it. The other day, my bassist said to play an "Ab" when we were in the key of E, and it made me cringe.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Scantron08

Great explanation, and easy to understand; however, since this seems to be a thread with a group that appreciates the nuances of being accurate, I have to point out that dom7 chords aren't triads. They are extended chords with four notes, not three. Thus, there are three inversions of these chords, instead of just two like a triad has. Not nit-picking, but trying to add to the OP's complete understanding of all the great info on here in response to his question. (I also thought for years that "inversions" was a silly word, when we should just be saying "versions" ... until I realized that what we mean by that is that we're actually *inverting* the chord. D'oh!)

It also took me years to understand why Db would be wrong instead of C# in the key of A (or why we would ever say things like "double-flat" or "E-sharp"), but then the other day, bam, I finally got it. I think it's because I've finally made it my goal to read standard notation for guitar - when I started studying that, it made perfect sense. Those explaining it on here have nailed it. The other day, my bassist said to play an "Ab" when we were in the key of E, and it made me cringe.

I used the word triad to mean that I use three note voicings of dom7 chords. Of course I didn't actually explain that part of it did I.

[Scantron08]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

I used the word triad to mean that I use three note voicings of dom7 chords. Of course I didn't actually explain that part of it did I.

Got it, cool. Now we have to explain partial chords and eliminating fifths, etc.......

[Leon Grizzard]

Is it dyads, or diads?

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

Is it dyads, or diads?

From what I understand, yes.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

Is it dyads, or diads?

You mean as opposed to "Is it mom's?". I don't know exactly who's it is Leon but that Texas drawl of yours is real thick.

[Mjark]

Dryads are tree nymphs, ladies of the oaks and pines.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by Mjark

Dryads are tree nymphs, ladies of the oaks and pines.

I thought those were Druads and they were like priests or something. But clean your glass and look at that again.

[' burn 08]

ok, when I see something like Bbb-Gb = maj 6th, what I see is A-F# = maj 6th. I understand that Bb-G =maj6= Bbb-Gb, you are just moving the maj 6th a semitone flat. But what I don't understand is why that notation is used? Is it the key? Basically I'm asking why would you write it as Bbb instead of A, in the key of Bb? I mostly get inversions as I use a few. But it is this notation I don't get. I've seen it before, but I've never really understood why you would write it as a double flat, for guitar anyways. I've been told that it does matter with another instrument but I forget which.

[Leon Grizzard]

It depends on what you are trying to convey. Sometimes you are keeping the letter names consistent. I'm not sure it would matter in your Bbb in the key of Bb example. But if you were in the key of Eb, where Bb is the V chord, and you want to convey the idea that you are taking the V chord down 1/2 step, you call it Bbb, to keep the letter name interval the the same. Bbb is the b5 of Eb. A would be the #4. It keeps the relationship to the key in terms of scale degrees consistent.