Exploring Pentatonic Substitution Helped with Modes - Very Long Post

[rave]

Note, this is an extremely long post and I am sure many people know this stuff already, but below is a way I began to learn how to play modally using pentatonic patterns I already knew. If you stick with this I think there is a useable idea that can be helpful to some beginning to learn modes.

After returning to the guitar after a pretty long layoff, I wanted to expand my playing. This led me to try to learn modes which led me to a bunch of sources for explanations some of which helped and others did not, along with the idea that new fingerings were required to play modally.

After lots of confusion, I then got interested in the idea of pentatonic substitution because I had a good grasp of the five pentatonic patterns and the idea of relative minor/major. I was now trying to get more mileage from what I already knew. There are lots of books, articles and videos on this subject. Some just cut to the chase and give lists of single scales you can play on chords and some give more details. I wanted to dig in and see if I could work some of this out for myself.

Pentatonic Substitution is basically using minor pentatonic scales to imply modes. Note this post is not about Modal Pentatonics which is creating new five note scales to sound modal. So the idea is get more use out of what we already know. Here is what I learned along the way which has also been very helpful in understanding not just modes but the major scale.

The analysis I did is in G.

The first thing I did was ignore the idea that modes are playing the major scale from a different root, i.e. A Dorian is the G Major scale played from A to A. This thinking requires new fingerings. Not that this is ultimately bad, but it does not relate immediately to getting more use from known pentatonic patterns.

So I decided to look at the notes and chords derived from the major scale as they relate to various minor pentatonic scales. I started thinking in terms of a pool of notes that can be played over chords and modes as opposed to fingerings.

G Major Scale notes
G A B C D E F#

Chords derived from the G major
Gmaj7 - A Minor - B Minor - Cmaj7 - D7 - E Minor - F#min7B5

There are three minor pentatonic scales made up entirely of notes from the G Major scale.

E Minor Pentatonic E G A B D

Five tones of the G major scale missing F#, C. This is also the G Major Pentatonic Scale.

A Minor Pentatonic A C D E G

Five tones of the G Major Scale missing B, F#. This is also the C Major Pentatonic Scale

B Minor Pentatonic B D E F# A

Five tones of the G Major scale missing C, G. This is also the D Major Pentatonic Scale.

How does this help imply all of the modes?

By analyzing the tones that create the modal sounds and relating them to these three pentatonic scales. This is where it can get confusing, but ultimately when you get to the end of this you have a usable idea that relates to what we know about the fret board and the pentatonic patterns we have ingrained into our muscle memory. You now find the key tones that create the color of the mode and relate them back to the above pentatonic scale. At this point you are now thinking about the key/chord you are playing in. I have done three below as an example.

A Dorian for the A minor

Since the Dorian Mode highlights the 2 = B and 6 = F# B Minor Pentatonic adds both, mix A and B Minor Pentatonics along with E Minor

C Lydian for the C Maj7

Major Mode or also thought of as a major scale #4 = F#, which is found in the B Minor Pentatonic or pentatonic down one fret. This down one fret trick for Lydian is shown quite a bit. Mix B minor with A minor to get the root or B with E minor.

D Mixolydian for the D7. Major mode altered tone is b7 which is C in the key of D. So start with D Major pentatonic which is B minor pentatonic and mix A minor Pentatonic A Minor Pentatonic which adds the b7.

I took some of these and threw on some YouTube modal jam tracks to test it out and by golly it sounded pretty modal.

The best results for me came when I combined two pentatonics in one spot. Some combinations nail all of the notes, others do not. So mixing A and B at the 5th fret for Dorian. This of course creates the Dorian scale, but because of the years of muscle memory thinking in terms of playing two pentatonic scales ideas flow easier when improvising. B and E at the 7th fret gives a nice Lydian Vibe. B and A at the 7th fret worked well for Mixolydian because you are overlaying the color tone which is in the A minor pentatonic over B minor which is obviously D major pentatonic.

I am going to spend some more time and work out the other combinations. I also have to delve more into understanding what when and why to use the modes, but I hope this idea helps someone.

If anyone read this far and has questions, please ask, thanks

[chabby]

What you talk about in this post is why mastering guitar (if anyone really ever does) takes a lifetime. Most of this stuff I learned by accident and couldn't write a paragraph that would be much use to anyone trying to learn, but I've been led to purely by instinct, massive amounts of practice and experimenting.

I know what I know, if you know what I mean, but you put it into words people can use to shorten the learning curve - thanks for goinjg to the trouble. Because just analyzing the examples you list, can open many doors to other chord modes/scales and linking. It also explains some of the mystery in how it all works.
Although some of it just can't be explained as much as experienced.

Guess that's why they call i9t "art".

[yelserpdog]

This is exactly what i've been working on. I've now started applying the same logic to substitutions for jazz. It's good stuff. The Ron Lemos book has come in handy also, it uses reworked pentatonics.

Here's a couple of other things i've found on a similar theme. (warning, jazz content!)

http://nickwalters.wordpress.com/tag/jerry-bergonzi/

http://allegedartist.wordpress.com/

This video of Scott Henderson gives a couple of really simple techniques for swapping pentatonics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm_VSjadCiU

rock
Yd

[rave]

Yelserpdog,

I have seen a few of the Ron Lemos videos and he really has some great ideas and sounds great. I have progressed more since I made a conscious attempt to stop learning new scales and fingerings for the time being and get better at using what I know. Part of that is not getting new books or DVDs for the time being. At some point I will get Ron's book and check into it.

Thanks

[rolling56]

Originally Posted by yelserpdog

This video of Scott Henderson gives a couple of really simple techniques for swapping pentatonics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm_VSjadCiU

rock
Yd

If i had not watched this video none of this would have sunk in my one brain cell left......thank you

[rave]

Originally Posted by rolling56

If i had not watched this video none of this would have sunk in my one brain cell left......thank you

I probably should have posted this link. It is one of the more common pentatonic impositions. For Lydian use the minor pentatonic down one step from the root. My example was B Minor pentatonic to imply C Lydian. The link below shows a basic Ab Minor pentatonic over an A Lydian backing track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KUTOX6Pc7o

[gtroates]

OK, I'll be the pedant this time. One step down means one whole step, so in your examples one step down from C would be Bb. The written examples posted were one half step down. Just trying to clear up any confusion, please don't give me a wedgie!

[gtroates]

The examples are correct if you meant one "scale step" down, as the intent is to place the minor pent on the major seventh of the chord you are playing over. Again, no offense intended.

[rolling56]

Originally Posted by rave

I probably should have posted this link. It is one of the more common pentatonic impositions. For Lydian use the minor pentatonic down one step from the root. My example was B Minor pentatonic to imply C Lydian. The link below shows a basic Ab Minor pentatonic over an A Lydian backing track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KUTOX6Pc7o

ah k i got you now. I thought you were talking about major pent only.

[rave]

Originally Posted by gtroates

OK, I'll be the pedant this time. One step down means one whole step, so in your examples one step down from C would be Bb. The written examples posted were one half step down. Just trying to clear up any confusion, please don't give me a wedgie!

I am not sure I said it correctly but I meant one fret down, so B Minor pentatonic to imply C Lydian, Ab Minor Pentatonic to imply A Lydian etc.

[klasaine]

One fret is a half-step.
Two frets is a whole-step.

*Explanation is correct. The terminology was where the question was.

[jazztele]

Back to the OP, some of this is a bit over-complicated and convoluted, BUT--the big idea you're getting at is the most important thing about modes--they have a SOUND.

If you think of modes as the major scale starting on a different note, you'll never get modes.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Back to the OP, some of this is a bit over-complicated and convoluted, BUT--the big idea you're getting at is the most important thing about modes--they have a SOUND.

If you think of modes as the major scale starting on a different note, you'll never get modes.

+1 ... and thank you JT!

[rave]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Back to the OP, some of this is a bit over-complicated and convoluted, BUT--the big idea you're getting at is the most important thing about modes--they have a SOUND.

If you think of modes as the major scale starting on a different note, you'll never get modes.

I agree, the major scale starting on a different note idea was a source of confusion and as I mentioned led to thinking about new fingerings instead of sounds.

As far as being over complicated, I think the part about finding the color tones of the mode was the part that got complicated because you are then thinking about the "new" chord/key/sound you are trying to get at.

Once you are through all of that one can go back to a very simple use of all of this and remember stuff like

One fret down for Lydian
Up two frets for Dorian etc.

I found all this helpful because once I related it to patterns my fingers had played thousands of times it became easier to use.

[Larry F]

I dig your thinking on this.

On the concept of step, what I am going to say might create more confusion, but it is, nonetheless, standard terminology in classical music. The concept is that there are two kinds of steps: diatonic and chromatic. A diatonic step means a step within the key. For example, in G major: G-A, A-B, B-C, C-D, D-E, E-F#, F#-G. B-C and F#-G are half-steps, and the other are whole-steps. They are all diatonic steps. Other terms are tonal and generic.

Chromatic steps need a qualifier, as the word step has two possibilities: half-step and whole-step.

All of this could be extended to the other intervals.

[the embezzler]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Back to the OP, some of this is a bit over-complicated and convoluted, BUT--the big idea you're getting at is the most important thing about modes--they have a SOUND.

If you think of modes as the major scale starting on a different note, you'll never get modes.

But that's what they are?! And this is also key to understanding their future application i.e you can play a G# Aeolian in the key of E major for a lydian sound. You have to internalize the sound of them first but then also realize that you can change the way they sound by transposing them.
Plus, it's actually a good way to introduce the modes as well - it demystifies them to a student who is encountering them for the first time and thinks 'Oh heck! 6 new scales to learn!'.

These days I think of modes as a roadmap for 6 different permutations of the major scale that I can transpose into any key and change the tonal quality of.

[jazztele]

Modes have characteristic pitches. I see folks all the time trying to just play a major scale subbed over a modal vamp. They sound aimless, because they're emphasizing the wrong notes.

You'll have a better sound understanding of what Lydian sounds like by playing a D major triad over a C chord than you ever will playing a G major scale over it.

It's much better to view the mode as a color and not as a scale. If a student is at the point where the concept of characteristic pitches would mystify them, they ain't ready for modes.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by the embezzler

But that's what they are?! And this is also key to understanding their future application i.e you can play a G# Aeolian in the key of E major for a lydian sound.

And this is a perfect example of why 'modal' harmony/theory is so maligned.

In the VERY BEGINNING it's 'ok' to explain that the fingering and hand positions can be thought of as a major scale but then one needs to get away from that ASAP. *Common fingering position stuff should be used as visual learning guide only.
Learn E Lydian - not G# aeolian or you'll sound continually as if you're playing in the wrong key. Cross modal thinking should be way down the line.

*The guitar is a grid ... and there's only 12 notes (that repeat themselves) so naturally 'patterns' will arise. String instruments, especially guitar due to it's frets, are very visual and humans are good at recognizing 'patterns'. That's pretty much just a coincidence with the modes and has absolutely nothing to with their sound or how a musician should use them.

[the embezzler]

Originally Posted by jazztele

You'll have a better sound understanding of what Lydian sounds like by playing a D major triad over a C chord than you ever will playing a G major scale over it.

It's much better to view the mode as a color and not as a scale. If a student is at the point where the concept of characteristic pitches would mystify them, they ain't ready for modes.

Agreed. If I wanted to show a student how E Lydian sounds i.e the tonal colour of that scale I would show them that it is a major scale with a sharpened fourth (or flattened 5th) and then get them to play the basic triads of the B major scale against an E pedal tone. But, instead of having to learn new fingerings for the mode all over the neck they should understand that they can use the ones they already know from playing the modes in the key of B major; and using the Bb as a tension tone. You could also show them how to play scales off of the chord tones E, G#, A#, D#, F#.

Originally Posted by klasaine

Learn E Lydian - not G# aeolian or you'll sound continually as if you're playing in the wrong key. Cross modal thinking should be way down the line.

I don't understand how I would sound like I was in the wrong key playing the above
Cross modal thinking can be used to demystify early on in the game, imho. It certainly helped me.

[Budda]

When I first "learned" the Modes, I was taught that these particular "Fretboard Patterns" were the Modes.

Jeez, that caused me a lot of confusion, for a long time! LOL

Whomever is reading this Thread, here's some heartfelt advice:

LISTEN to what the guys here are writing, and believe them!

;)