Exploring Pentatonic Substitution Helped with Modes - Very Long Post

[slowpinky]

I was ready to frame a question about the relationship between modes--mysterious to me--and the CAGED scale patterns I have worked to learn,

Interestingly - Ive never thought of the different caged shapes as modal - its all major or minor to me with scales starting either on the tonic , third or fifth of the chord. Its probably because I think of the chord first , pretty much every time.

To some degree it comes back to whether you perceive the sounds on the guitar derived from the major scale or; as parallel to it - i.e mixolydian being like a major with a b7. Hearing it from the chord tends toward the latter in my experience.

[slowpinky]

I should say its all major, minor and dominant to me actually. With whatever alterations needed.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

Interestingly - Ive never thought of the different caged shapes as modal - its all major or minor to me with scales starting either on the tonic , third or fifth of the chord.

+1
Caged is about visual shapes (and a fine learning tool for beginners).
Modes are about a 'sound' ... or at least they should be.

[boneyguy]

I think a common error is for people to think of CAGED as a music concept and it's not. CAGED is simply and only a map of the guitar fretboard. There's nothing inherently 'musical' about CAGED. Modes, on the other hand, are a music concept. You can use CAGED to map modes onto the fretboard and that's the nature of their relationship.

I'll offer this analogy: you can have a very detailed map of the neighbourhood you live in which might include where all the streets are and the houses and buisnesses etc. but that map will never be able to describe the activities that are taking place at any given moment on those streets and in those houses.

CAGED is the map of the neigbourhood and modes are an activity that may be taking place at any given moment. They do have a relationship for guitar players in that the activity (modes) is taking place on the thing (the fretboard) that the map (CAGED) represents. That's the nature of their relationship and nothing more.

[slowpinky]

CAGED is the map of the neigbourhood and modes are an activity that may be taking place at any given moment.

I like it - If CAGED is the map - Modes are the weather....

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

I like it - If CAGED is the map - Modes are the weather....

That's a great metaphor.

[klasaine]

I would say the 'restaurants'.
Modes are like flavors (IMO). We all have our favorites.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I would say the 'restaurants'.
Modes are like flavors (IMO). We all have our favorites.

In keeping with the original metaphor I would say that 'restaurants' are actually part of the map like streets and houses. The meals served with all the different flavors would be the modes. But you can't have both restaurants and flavours being the modes because it violates the metaphor. And I just won't stand for any metaphor violations. I mean...what were you thinking!!

(Hey what can I say....it was my metaphor to begin with so I get to be anal about if I want!)

Okay so let's say the map brought you to a restaurant where you're eating a deliciously spiced meal and the weather outside captures your attention.....what, then, is the relationship between the meal and the weather?

[klasaine]

of course!

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by klasaine

of course!

And what if you're in the restaurant having 'pie a la modes'? I'm blowing my own mind!!!

[slowpinky]

I'd mixoliddle okri in before it goes in the phrygian......

[Mr Perch]

Originally Posted by rave

This is where it can get confusing, but ultimately when you get to the end of this you have a usable idea that relates to what we know about the fret board and the pentatonic patterns we have ingrained into our muscle memory.

With all due respect, I think that the really good guitarists are the ones that fight to break free from "the pentatonic patterns we have ingrained into our muscle memory." The ones that are really free improvisers have done things like copy phrasing from horn solos, so that they are not chained down to what their fingers find convenient.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

I'd mixoliddle okri in before it goes in the phrygian......

Okay, you win.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by Scantron08

I was taught to view these kinds of progressions in terms of key center, and to play over them accordingly. Thus, when playing over Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 as a ii-V-I , I should simply use the C major as my key center (or you could say D dorian). Of course, playing D dorian over the ii, G mixo over the V, and C major over Cmaj7, means I'm all still within the exact same grouping of notes the whole time, anyway. So playing with that idea in mind, I'm not so much changing the mode I'm using with each chord change as I am simply staying in one place to get my melodic ideas across for that ii-V-I progression.

I also would focus on key centers of chord patterns. When I teach classical music analysis, one of the first things to do is map out the key centers. There is a sense of personal taste involved, as some key centers are so fleeting that they shouldn't be treated at the same level as more important ones. Secondary dominants are a textbook example of that.

Now, to modes. I have finally realized that Ken, Jazztele, and slowpinky use scales and modes to introduce pitches that fall outside the key centers. I am completely 100% interested in that, and wished I would have understand where they were coming from earlier on. But, better late than never for me to realize this.

[Mr Perch]

I'm a N00b here, so I hope I'm not too much of a contrarian, but I think that a good improviser should look for opportunities to call attention to the "fleeting" key centers. I think that was the genius of Charlie Parker -- to be able to incorporate those slight half-step shifts in the 6ths, 7ths, 9ths and so on to reflect rapid chord changes, without sacrificing a melodic idea (the danger in playing every chord is that you could conceivably wind with a dull series of arpeggios. But the ideal should be to walk and chew gum at the same time.) Also, the more I play, the more I realize that dominant 7 chords are my friend, and you can play them when they are only implied -- like if you are playing over a sustained Dm vamp, you can throw in an A7 idea at the end of a phrase to prepare for the next phrase, and since you are playing an A7 idea, you can extend it into a C7 or a Eb7 or Gb7 idea and it all can resolve beautifully back to Dm. And there you have your passport to introduce pitches that fall outside the key center.

[rave]

Originally Posted by Mr Perch

With all due respect, I think that the really good guitarists are the ones that fight to break free from "the pentatonic patterns we have ingrained into our muscle memory." The ones that are really free improvisers have done things like copy phrasing from horn solos, so that they are not chained down to what their fingers find convenient.

I think that is what this concept allows one to do. By patterns i meant the scale patterns the idea is to use them in new ways.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by Mr Perch

I'm a N00b here, so I hope I'm not too much of a contrarian, but I think that a good improviser should look for opportunities to call attention to the "fleeting" key centers. I think that was the genius of Charlie Parker -- to be able to incorporate those slight half-step shifts in the 6ths, 7ths, 9ths and so on to reflect rapid chord changes, without sacrificing a melodic idea (the danger in playing every chord is that you could conceivably wind with a dull series of arpeggios. But the ideal should be to walk and chew gum at the same time.) Also, the more I play, the more I realize that dominant 7 chords are my friend, and you can play them when they are only implied -- like if you are playing over a sustained Dm vamp, you can throw in an A7 idea at the end of a phrase to prepare for the next phrase, and since you are playing an A7 idea, you can extend it into a C7 or a Eb7 or Gb7 idea and it all can resolve beautifully back to Dm. And there you have your passport to introduce pitches that fall outside the key center.

I'm with you 100%.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Now, to modes. I have finally realized that Ken, Jazztele, and slowpinky use scales and modes to introduce pitches that fall outside the key centers. I am completely 100% interested in that, and wished I would have understand where they were coming from earlier on. But, better late than never for me to realize this.

Yes but also - and this is maybe even more important - to isolate and focus on pitches and groups of pitches that are not the 'obvious' ones - even if they're in the key/chord/scale.

For example: a static Bbmaj7 chord - Yes, I can think Bb maj or even Bb lydian but I prefer A phrygian because of what I hear as phrygian's signature sounds: A Bb D E ( and G and F to some extent). *That's also a susb9 chord, which is a great V chord in Dm. Those notes are a beautiful outline for an Em7b5 as well as C13 chord - see where I'm going? Visually it also allowed me to 'see' early on a very guitar friendly minor penta shape at the 5th fret - "wow!, an A blues scale for a Bbmaj7#11 " - "I wonder if that's how they ... dam, it is!". When I was a lot younger I'd always loved the way Eric Gale and Robben Ford could play blues licks over any pretty and/or altered jazz chord and make it work. When I discovered that a min penta box was hiding w/in a Phrygian scale (as well as few others) my ears really opened up - another light bulb moment.

[slowpinky]

but I think that a good improviser should look for opportunities to call attention to the "fleeting" key centers. I think that was the genius of Charlie Parker -- to be able to incorporate those slight half-step shifts in the 6ths, 7ths, 9ths and so on to reflect rapid chord changes, without sacrificing a melodic idea (the danger in playing every chord is that you could conceivably wind with a dull series of arpeggios. But the ideal should be to walk and chew gum at the same time.) Also, the more I play, the more I realize that dominant 7 chords are my friend, and you can play them when they are only implied -- like if you are playing over a sustained Dm vamp, you can throw in an A7 idea at the end of a phrase to prepare for the next phrase,

Thats it - and in some ways it doesnt matter how you get there. But for me this isnt talking about modes anymore - or not solely modes at least. Its more about what is sometimes called 'linear harmony' - the kind of thing you'll find in a Bach violin sonata - where its always harmonically specific - spelling the chord out in beautifully shaped and measured phrases- it has to; because the instrument is unaccompanied.

The thing about most Jazz players though -the really good ones anyway, is that they can be harmonically specific when need be - or really not at all - by choice...
Playing with a rhythm section allowed Bird to move in and out of the role of chord speller - sometimes a line would be an arpeggio - at other times it was more gestural , following the contour of the harmony in a general way. To me this isnt modal playing.

Perhaps its useful in retrospect for when you use chord/scales to ascertain the logic of certain note choices - or in Bird's case - the use of say, the octatonic scale and licks generated by that.

Modal playing - needs the harmony to 'sit' a little so that the unique relationships of the pitches within that mode can be explored. If you do this a lot - then sure its going to affect all of your playing - you'll hear those little things (like the A maj sound in a G Lydian Dominant) at the drop of a hat.

Ultimately though, the idea of modes fitting entirely or partially, over chords even in abstract terms tells us more about the chord than the melody - but doesnt provide melodic solutions to how chords change. Harmonic specificity is about arpeggios and how they connect - Ken's example of the A phrygian is still based around an A7susb9 chord - and I know he knows exactly how that connects with Dmin - and how everything else does as well....

It's the non -specific playing that makes that harmonic outline more interesting - what gets added in - how to maintain the integrity of the connection without resorting to just the chord tones all of the time(although it worked for Coleman Hawkins).

edit* I just wanted to add that being harmonically specific can mean being specific about outlining things away from the underlying harmony too.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Mr Perch

like if you are playing over a sustained Dm vamp, you can throw in an A7 idea at the end of a phrase to prepare for the next phrase, and since you are playing an A7 idea, you can extend it into a C7 or a Eb7 or Gb7 idea and it all can resolve beautifully back to Dm. And there you have your passport to introduce pitches that fall outside the key center.

Yes. And this of course now extends it even further. The beauty of realizing that, minor 3rd motion for anything even slightly resembling or functioning as a dominant chord, is all fair game.
*Convert all those doms. to their Vm7 or V mel.min. and potentially you're really taking it somewhere (ex: A7 = Em7 or E melodic minor, C7 = Gm7 or Gmel.min, etc.).