Exploring Pentatonic Substitution Helped with Modes - Very Long Post

[slowpinky]

mode = modus = mood. The salient points of the mode have to be heard - this is so important. Your F# min pentatonic will make a statement on G lydian but F# phrygian will just sound as meandering as any scale if you dont hear the heirarchy within it . Its absolutely true for any scale application - its better to use the chord as a guide as to what gives the modal relationship its character - and better still to make an aural study of the character and placement of the tones that give each mode its unique colour.


The trouble is - always has been , that the physical motion of modal patterns on the guitar have nothing to do with music - its become a 'paint by numbers' culture that says more about instructors and players looking for cheap shots than the actual study of the modes themselves.
Anyone who fancies some in depth study into modes - modes do embody the early history of our harmony - should read and pratice "Harmonic Experience" by WA Mathieu. -

[Larry F]

I'm sure this has been discussed here in the forum, maybe even by me. Do many people play and think ii V I as dorian, mixo, ionian?

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by the embezzler

I don't understand how I would sound like I was in the wrong key playing the above
Cross modal thinking can be used to demystify early on in the game, imho. It certainly helped me.

I haven't heard you play so I don't know.
And probably you, I'll assume understand that 'HOME' is E ... and not G#.
Unfortunately, most beginning and many intermediate guitar players don't get that and play as is 'home' is G#.

As for thinking a ii - V - I is Dorian, Mixo, Aeolian (?) ... some do, some don't. I don't. I tend to pick one IF (and in the case of a ii-V - a big if) I decide to think modally. I prefer dor or mixo personally.

[the embezzler]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I haven't heard you play so I don't know.
And probably you, I'll assume understand that 'HOME' is E ... and not G#.
Unfortunately, most beginning and many intermediate guitar players don't get that and play as is 'home' is G#.

Yes - of course! I have a feeling my original post may have been misinterpereted

Originally Posted by klasaine

As for thinking a ii - V - I is Dorian, Mixo, Aeolian (?) ... some do, some don't. I don't. I tend to pick one IF (and in the case of a ii-V - a big if) I decide to think modally. I prefer dor or mixo personally.

I would think 3rd and 7th chord tones and (in addition to that) maybe flat 9 and sharp 5 on the V chord if it is an altered chord.

[slowpinky]

Do many people play and think ii V I as dorian, mixo, ionian?

Not often I would think - in most cases thinking at all would leave you 8 bars in without playing a note....I do hear sounds on the V chord - sometimes modally based - sometimes not - but the relationship between V and I is the important part of that for me. On a straight ii V, I do find myself in melodic minor / lydian dominant world a lot - but you know, that sound to me has giant qualifiers - I've got to be aware of placement of the critical tones there..and it also ,significantly brings to mind many of the licks from Benson or Wes or even Scofield that Ive transcribed over the years..

[P Thought]

I'm waiting for the dawn. . .it's going to be a glorious day!

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I'm sure this has been discussed here in the forum, maybe even by me. Do many people play and think ii V I as dorian, mixo, ionian?

I sure hope not.

You gotta be damn good before you can make the vanilla notes that gives you sound interesting.

Like Ken said, approaching the occasional ii V as say, all Dorian, is a different story. But literally thinking "Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian" over a ii V I reminds me a bit of the game Mousetrap.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

Not often I would think -

in most cases thinking at all would leave you 8 bars in without playing a note

....I do hear sounds on the V chord - sometimes modally based - sometimes not - but the relationship between V and I is the important part of that for me. On a straight ii V, I do find myself in melodic minor / lydian dominant world a lot - but you know, that sound to me has giant qualifiers - I've got to be aware of placement of the critical tones there..and it also ,significantly brings to mind many of the licks from Benson or Wes or even Scofield that Ive transcribed over the years..

This is a huge point.
The 'learning' phase is one thing - whether it's chord tone playing or modal playing. The 'playing' phase is quite another.

I tend to always think/play forward - where the song (or me) is going.

Example: I played Autumn Leaves on a gig last night (not a very good gig but that's another story). I kind of laughed as the tune was called because of all the discussion about it here. So I'm thinking, "what do I do on this tune?". And I realized that at this point I just think overarchingly major to minor - as long as I know where the chord 'quality' changes everything else in between works. I realize that that's no help whatsoever but it illustrates the need to go to the woodshed - figure out what to do, what you like, how it works, etc. As I isolated and highlighted in SP's quote above. If you're thinking about it on the gig (or even at the jam) you're probably not playing anything.

[Eric71]

This thread has reiterated some stuff that I may have already known about modes somewhere (that it's about which notes you emphasize, not the scale necessarily), but the replies to the OP have helped me immensely in beginning to grasp how modes work and why they always elude me.

I just wanted to say thanks for some of the 'common misconception' posts that have popped up in here. Very useful.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Eric71

This thread has reiterated some stuff that I may have already known about modes somewhere (that it's about which notes you emphasize, not the scale necessarily), but the replies to the OP have helped me immensely in beginning to grasp how modes work and why they always elude me.

I just wanted to say thanks for some of the 'common misconception' posts that have popped up in here. Very useful.

That's EXACTLY what 'can be' attractive (and is to me) about modal playing. I feel that's what was attractive to Miles, Trane, Wayne Shorter, McCoy, etc in the late 50's and through the 60's and 70's. The focus on some different choices from the be-bop era.

[jazztele]

And of course, I like to stress--that's some heavy stuff.

I'm not anti-modes--I use them...or should I say, I use their sounds (I really don't practice scales or view the fretboard as a series of scales) But I'm very "anti-beginner doesn't even know his major scales or the fretboard and he's taking on modes."

[ac15]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Back to the OP, some of this is a bit over-complicated and convoluted, BUT--the big idea you're getting at is the most important thing about modes--they have a SOUND.

If you think of modes as the major scale starting on a different note, you'll never get modes.

I think it's fine to use the major scale as a reference for learning the modes, as long as you drill "the sound" into your head with repetition. I used to think playing scales over and over was to develop dexterity. That is one purpose, but I eventually learned that playing scales is about learning the sounds more than anything else.

[klasaine]

Most of the guys here, who have been here for a few years, know that the 'modal advocates' - me being possibly the primary one - understand that I (JT, SP, etc.) talk about it with the assumption that you know major scale harmony, intervals, all your 3rd's, 7th's and b9's instantaneously.

For those that are newer here remember that those players that I mentioned in a previous post - McCoy Tyner, Wayne Shorter, Sam Rivers, Miles, Trane, etc. went through the be-bop era and gradually moved into more modal playing. These cats are the pinnacle of improvisational musicians. Any style, any era, any genre.
Personally I wouldn't even concern myself with a mode until I could name the 3rd, 4th, 5th 7th, and b9 of of any and all key/scale/chords in my sleep.

[Scantron08]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I'm sure this has been discussed here in the forum, maybe even by me. Do many people play and think ii V I as dorian, mixo, ionian?

I was taught to view these kinds of progressions in terms of key center, and to play over them accordingly. Thus, when playing over Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 as a ii-V-I , I should simply use the C major as my key center (or you could say D dorian). Of course, playing D dorian over the ii, G mixo over the V, and C major over Cmaj7, means I'm all still within the exact same grouping of notes the whole time, anyway. So playing with that idea in mind, I'm not so much changing the mode I'm using with each chord change as I am simply staying in one place to get my melodic ideas across for that ii-V-I progression.

[rave]

Originally Posted by jazztele

And of course, I like to stress--that's some heavy stuff.

I'm not anti-modes--I use them...or should I say, I use their sounds (I really don't practice scales or view the fretboard as a series of scales) But I'm very "anti-beginner doesn't even know his major scales or the fretboard and he's taking on modes."

I agree that to get the most out of the above analysis, one should know the major scale and be able to name notes. As far one of the posts above and knowing home, some of these scales don't contain the root and still sound good.

I think in general music like any other topic, people should find the their own personal mix of theory and practice. There are lots of things in life I can "work" but can't tell you how they work.

[the embezzler]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Personally I wouldn't even concern myself with a mode until I could name the 3rd, 4th, 5th 7th, and b9 of of any and all key/scale/chords in my sleep.

Well, one of the first things we teach beginner's is the Major scale (the Ionian mode) and I see a lot of 'How do I learn the notes of the fretboard?' posts here. There's nothing wrong with encouraging a student to play say the G major scale laterally up and down all six strings and get them memorizing the note names and then getting them to take the scale up incrementally on the 6th string and using the root 6 to build the modes (while still saying the names of the notes out loud).
You can show them how the dorian sounds against an A minor chord or how a minor7b5 sounds against the Locrian mode.
I agree that harmony knowledge is important but I also think that everybody learns differently and there is no harm in showing a guitar player possibilities outside the minor and major pentatonic (we hear so often how players are stuck inside these ruts) early on in the game.

[slowpinky]

There's nothing wrong with encouraging a student to play say the G major scale laterally up and down all six strings and get them memorizing the note names and then getting them to take the scale up incrementally on the 6th string and using the root 6 to build the modes (while still saying the names of the notes out loud).

No there's nothing wrong with learning major scales. Theres a lot right with it if "the ears' get in on the act too. My biggest issue with scales and modes is when the material doesnt make it to the "inner ear". The 'patterns' have to have an aural imperative as well as a physical one - which is why singing all that stuff is so important.
All of those great improvisers that Ken mentioned came from the most sophisticated aural harmonic and rhythmic tradition that exists in Western music - in contemporary terms at least. Thats why I reiterate the need for approaches like Mathieu's to the study of modes.

[klasaine]

And because guitar in particular is a big pattern generator/grid, it's SO FRIGGIN' EASY to just let your fingers do the walking and not hear a thing.
One of the best things an early guitar teacher did for me was 'not' tell me that those major scale positions up the neck were called modes. I had no idea that starting the major scale on the different degrees were the modes until my 2nd year of college - when I started studying modal counterpoint (16th cent. counterpoint). Also at about the same time I took a few months of private guitar lessons with Steve Vai. Coincidentally he showed/informed me that all those major scales I was practicing for technique were also really great for emphasizing certain 'colors' over certain chords and chord progressions. It was easy for me to then literally within a week start to relate those sounds with sounds I was hearing in other players conception and hearing in my own head. It was the proverbial 'light bulb' moment (one of many) for me. But only and I reiterate only because I knew my major scale harmony inside and out - technically/physically as well as mentally.

[P Thought]

I am up again, as I almost always am, at 3:30 in the morning, and I was ready to frame a question about the relationship between modes--mysterious to me--and the CAGED scale patterns I have worked to learn, in this wonderful thread I've pondered for the past few mornings.

I think you have sent me the dawn I am seeking: I don't want my answer just yet. What I need first is a ready understanding of the notes and intervals in each chord and scale I play within those patterns, and an ear for differences in how each pattern sounds. I'll get to work on that.

I have been making a blindman's progress: before this thread came along, I'd begun to pluck pairs of notes in a "box" up the neck, and use them to move back down to a chord in my key closer to the nut, and it made me begin to wonder about how each pattern functioned differently. . .och, tamale.

Again, thanks to all of you. I am your humble student, less diligent than I should be, but more diligent than I was,

--Luke

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by P Thought

.........the relationship between modes--mysterious to me--and the CAGED scale patterns ..........

Well the CAGED patterns can be used to organize major scale patterns on the fretboard and the modes are constructed out of those major scales. That's the connection. Pretty straightforward really.

It's also useful to see that each note in a major scale pattern on the fretboard can be thought of as the beginning of a different CAGED shape. So you can apply that to modes as well.