Modes... Do I Have It Right?

[Twin and Twang]

So, I'll try to make this short. Been working out how to apply modes to my playing and it seems simpler than I thought. Now this worries me and makes me think I have something wrong. So here goes an example for some folks to either confirm or repudiate!

Potentially Wrong (intentionally kept simple) Example:

So, I'm playing a solo over Amaj7.

I'd have the choice of playing in the Ionian or Lydian modes.

My two modal options are to be played over the A major scale, they would just be rooted in different notes.

The Ionian would be rooted in A.
The Lydian would be rooted in D.

The root of the scale changes with the modes, but not the actual scale. The scale remains the same as the backing chord. So my scale patterns on the neck remain entirely the same and I only have to alter the root note of my solo? This sounds right when played, except I have to be careful not to fall back into the Ionian mode when I'm playing in the Lydian. This seems altogether too simple to me

Thanks in advance for being patient!!!

[teledaddyo]

You'd really just be thinking an A major scale (A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A) over both chords. Technically it's correct but modes are really more descriptive of the melody's relationship to the chords themselves. Ionian is Greek for major scale IME. A D major scale (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D) is lydian when you raise the 4th degree (G to G#) and in the key of A major as approached would be considered a D Lydian scale. The key to making it sound like you're playing a Lydian scale would be to play the G# against the D chord. Typically to be identified as a Lydian melody in A Major you'd want to play a D# against the A in your melody to bring out the characteristic of the Lydian scale. With modes, the color tones of each mode affect their perception audibly against the harmonic background. If you really want to experiment record some changes in the key of A (A/F#m/Bm/E) and start a melody using A major/ionian then play over it again with the Lydian scale (raising the D to D#) and hear the tension created. That will get your ear used to hearing the difference. Also, try to play the notes non-scalarly so there's less predictability in your head. Aim for the color tones- 3,Maj7 and #4 versus the 3 and Maj7 sound. Half steps in the scales are also good points to start off the departure into hearing the mode.

[Twin and Twang]

Thanks teledaddyo!

That helped a bunch. It appears that I missed the mark entirely. So, the intervals change with each mode and this is what alters the "feel". Am I right? Wow, can't wait to get home and try this out! Been using info from the zentao website and guess I got confused. I feel sheepish Any shortcuts or tricks to remembering the interval changes per mode?

[jbmando]

What has worked for me is to think of the modes as x to x in Q major, where x = the syllable representing the tonic of the mode you want and Q = the Key signature's major scale. Key of C as an example:

Ionian = do to do
Dorian = re to re
phrygian = mi to mi
lydian = fa to fa
mixolydian = sol to sol
aeolian = la to la (also known as natural minor)
locrian = ti to ti

Remembering that I IV and V are the major triads in the major scale, Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian are going to be major modes, Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian are going to be minor modes and locrian is diminished and a mode used for improvisation over altered chords a lot of the time.

[joel_ostrom]

Modes are used to fit over top of specific chord voicings. Take the key of 'C' for example.

C D E F G A B (C)

if you build all your diatonic 7th chords from these notes you get the following:

C Maj7 (C, E, G, B)
D Min7 (D, F, A, C)
E Min 7 (E, G, B, D)
F Maj 7 (F, A, C, E)
G Dom7 (G, B, D, F)
A Min7 (A, C, E, G)
B Dim7 (B, D, F, A)


The mode that applies to each is determined by how it relates to the major scale.

D Min7 relates to a "Dorian" Scale. Starting from the 'D' (using all the notes in a C Major Scale) you have:

D E F G A B C (D)

compared to a D Major Scale which has:

D E F# G A B C# (D)
you have a flattened 3rd (F) and a flattened 7th (C).




Look at a Lydian Scale. Starting on a F (using all the notes in a C Major Scale) you have:

F G A B C D E (F)

compared to an F Major Scale which has:

F G A Bb C D E (F)
you have a raised (sharped) fourth (B Natural).



To play over an A Maj7 you would indeed use an Ionian scale (same as a plain A Major Scale). A Lydian scale rooted in D possesses the same notes as the 'A' Ionian, it just starts from a different scale degree. They're the same thing.

Let me show you:


A Ionian = A B C# D E F# G# A
B Dorian = B C# D E F# G# A B
C# Phrygian = C# D E F# G# A B C#
D Lydian= D E F# G# A B C# D
E Mixolydian= E F# G# A B C# D E
F# Aeolian= F# G# A B C# D E F#
G# Locrian= G# A B C# D E F# G#

See, they all contain the same notes, they just start on different scale degrees (roots). You use modes to appropriately solo on top of specific chords. For instance.

a D Min7 contains D, F, A, C.
compared to Dmaj7 which contains D, F#, A, C#.

in order to make

Dmaj7 --> Dmin7

you need to:

flatten the 3rd (F#-->F)
flatten the 7th (C#-->C)

Therefore, you use a scale which contains those specific alterations.

D Major Scale = D E F# G A B C#
D Dorian Scale= D E F G A B C

the Dorian scale has a flattened 3rd (F) and a flattened 7th (C).
Therefore you would use a Dorian scale.

Lastly - the idea behind the use of modes in jazz and all kinds of music lies in this simple concept; Tension & Release.

You can use many modes over top of many different chords. Its not a rigid system. You emphasize chord tones (I, III, V, VII) for release of tension that you build by playing notes that do NOT belong to the chord you're playing over top of.

Hope this makes sense. It can sometimes be a confusing concept to grasp.
Cheers!

[slowpinky]

If you really want to experiment record some changes in the key of A (A/F#m/Bm/E) and start a melody using A major/ionian then play over it again with the Lydian scale (raising the D to D#) and hear the tension created. That will get your ear used to hearing the difference. Also, try to play the notes non-scalarly so there's less predictability in your head. Aim for the color tones- 3,Maj7 and #4 versus the 3 and Maj7 sound. Half steps in the scales are also good points to start off the departure into hearing the mode.

__________________

That's all good advice - keep it simple as you can. Messing around with a whole scale or mode can be really cumbersome... so do take teldaddyo's advice on working with small cells of melody - particularly focussing on the characteristic sounds of each scale.

If you number the scale degrees - 1-7 - work with 4 at a time

i.e #4 5 3 1 and juggle the tones around until you find a cell you like the sound of

And dont forget to think rhythmically with any of these - assign a strong rhythm to each cell - its import and effect will sink in better.

[BigDaddyLH]

So far we've just been talking about the modes of the major scale. The modes of the melodic minor (AKA jazz minor) are important, too.

[joel_ostrom]

Originally Posted by Twin and Twang

Any shortcuts or tricks to remembering the interval changes per mode?

You can turn any key into a mode by simply making the alterations to the notes in the following way.

Dorian = b3, b7
Phrygian = b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian = #4
Mixolydian = b7
Aeolian = b3, b6, b7
Locrian = b2, b3, b5, b6, b7


Ex.) E Major --> E Phrygian

E Major = E F# G# A B C# D# E

by flattening the 2nd (F#) the 3rd (G#) the 6th (C#) and the 7th (D#)
you end up with this:

E Phrygian = E F G A B C D E

(btw - play the Phrygian scale on your guitar, it sounds very ethnic. Very spanish-like, very commonly used for flamenco guitar styles)

Apply the alterations listed above to any major key and you will produce that particular mode of the major scale.

[dwlb]

Wow, I'm still really lost. Have been for years, though, despite my father and my music teachers trying to explain it to me. Keep talking, though; I'll try to pick it up.

[joel_ostrom]

For a bit more detail and in depth coverage, i'd look at something like this:

You can get it on Amazon.com here:
Jazz Theory Workbook by Mark Boling

Its got a lot of good jazz ideas, but more for your purposes it has a good explanation of the differences in modes and their applications. It also covers modes of the melodic minor and the harmonic minor as well.

[String Tree]

I went through this when I was in College.
Great stuff.
With Modes, you need to get as many different points-of-view as possible.

At this point, Music starts to look like an Equation with a lot of variables.
In many ways it is. IMHO.

There are a lot of ways to set-up your musical equation.
'Proving' your equation where all the fun is.

~ ST

[Larry F]

Not all musicians use modes to understand harmony. None of the local jazz players in town think modally, unless they are playing a modal tune. The problem with modes is that they are cumbersome and unnecessary, unless one is playing a modal song. I've been through this many times before in this forum and realize mine is not a popular viewpoint. It is very sad to me to have seen the proliferation of modes as a pedagogical tool in all the books in music stores that I see. Even blues guitar books have modes in them now.

The alternative approach is to find the harmonic center, or key, implied by the chord progression and use the notes of that key as freely as people use modes. In both cases, guide tones are also an important consideration, as are altered tones.

If I see an A7 chord, I play in A major with a b7. I know to use the G natural because it is a chord tone. Alternately, I could use an A mixolydian mode. How do I know to do this. Because of the b7. Why introduce another layer of theoretical construct?

OF course, there are more legit uses of modal terminology, but, in my, view modes are hyper-grossly overused in improv pedagogy.

When Ken chimes in, though, he will always be right. But his thinking of modes is not the same as in the music store books, I'm pretty sure.

[joel_ostrom]

Originally Posted by Larry F

The alternative approach is to find the harmonic center, or key, implied by the chord progression and use the notes of that key as freely as people use modes. In both cases, guide tones are also an important consideration, as are altered tones.

If I see an A7 chord, I play in A major with a b7. I know to use the G natural because it is a chord tone. Alternately, I could use an A mixolydian mode. How do I know to do this. Because of the b7. Why introduce another layer of theoretical construct?

OF course, there are more legit uses of modal terminology, but, in my, view modes are hyper-grossly overused in improv pedagogy.

I think your method is sensible. If it works for you then i'm not about to knock it.

I think everybody makes sense of theoretical harmony in their own way. Personally i wouldn't want to limit myself by excluding something from my knowledge base simply because i didn't seem like something i'd use frequently enough.

Technically speaking you can be a great player even without knowing all your modes and their functions. But i think you're a better player for knowing them all the same.

[Larry F]

One of my students told me that when he was a jazz guitar major at Berklee, one of the tests at juries was to see an isolated chord and be able to play the modes that could apply.

A chord is found in a song. The song is in a key. The key can be changed by using different chords. You always know the key this way. Just play the notes in that key, and emphasize the guide tones. Use altered notes as you wish. It is a very simple relation between chords and keys. I do not see how modes fit into that view.

However, if you want to be a robot and rattle off notes, then train yourself to play all possible modes for a minor 7 chord, and other types. That is a weird response system, to me. I associate this pedagogical development with John LaPorta and other architects of the berklee curriculum.

Here is the wiki entry on LaPorta: He taught at the Parkway Music School, then at public schools on Long Island, followed by Manhattan School of Music, and, ultimately, at Berklee College of Music in Boston.[1] Along with guitarist Jack Petersen, LaPorta helped fashion the Berklee curriculum. Specifically, the pair pioneered the use of Greek modes for teaching chord-scales, a technique which has become the standard for teaching music theory worldwide.

It saddens me that musicians come to think of modes as being inextricably tied to chords, to the point of being knee-jerk responses. The downside, as I see constantly in the forum, is that rarely to people wonder what the key center is in a series of chords. All they care about are the modes, a one-one relationship with chords. A broader view would be to see/hear chords and ascertain their relation to each other by sharing the same of different key centers. I think you should always be able to the stop a tune and ask a band member what the tonic is. That is, after, the point of reference of a series of chords, and ultimately the entire song. The mode school does not encourage tonic thinking, as far as I see and read in music store books. Can't anyone see how wrong-headed that can seem? Do you know the key center right now-here? And now, two bars later, what key are we in now? Key centers generally more slower than chords. This lets you create ideas that are related more broadly than chord/mode to chord/mode.

Why do I do this? Ken, help me.

[lucascostner]

Here's the essence of modes. If you really memorize/understand this you're most of the way there.

1 Maj. 7 = 9 11 13
2 min. 7 = 9 11 13
3 min. 7 = b9 11 b13
4 Maj. 7 = 9 #11 13
5 dom 7 = 9 11 13
6 min. 7 = 9 11 b13
7 min. 7 b5 = b9 11 b13

That's all there is to it. People make it too hard.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

.........
Why do I do this? Ken, help me.

Well I'm not Ken (or Barbie either) but I'm with ya Larry. I have understood the concept of modes as taught by Berklee for more than thirty years but the 'mode thing' does not inform or direct my playing/improvising at all. It seems like an artificial and clumsy concept to me. It was also the soup du jour at the college I went to when I studied music back in the early 80's.

To me key centers as you describe them are a more useful and musical approach. That and guide tones and how to decorate and embellish triads and connect them melodically. Then there's an unrestricted pallette of chromaticism to choose from right from the start. A piece of music is not chopped up into little boxes of chord/mode/scale minutae. That's the basis of my approach at least.



For me it just makes more musical sense to approach playing that way because it seems more direct and more logically related to what's actually happening musically.

[klasaine]

Modes (for me) and the Berklee method is all about key centers. The problem with just reading about the Berklee method of chord/scale relationships - and this goes for anybody trying to figure out their method w/o actually attending at least two years there - is that you get a very incomplete picture of what the curriculum is trying to present. It's deep and you don't get into the chord/scale thing until you already know the basics of harmony - like what keys you're in as you cycle through "All the Things you Are" or "Stella". The chord/scale relationship method that they try to teach is to gear you up for John coltrane and Wayne shorter type songs where each chord may be the key of the moment or may have a non-standard resolution which can alter some of your choices.
Example: Night and Day (in 'C') it's Abmaj7 to G7+ to C major. Yeah, the key center is "C", but are you really gonna play C major stuff over that Abmaj7 ... really?*
Here's another more subtle example ... Dm7b5 to G7alt. that resolves to a C major chord. Are you in C major for that whole sequence? What, because of that Major I that we resolve to, could be a cool option on the m7b5 chord? D Locrian nat. 2 is a great 'scale choice' over that particular m7b5 in that context (because you're resolving to a Cmaj, which has an E natural). Also, and obviously thinking modally is a great way to approach longer static vamps. Which, as Larry mentioned is playing modally. In modern Jazz, which is what Berklee really teaches, a lot of tunes are successions of short (or longer) static vamps ala Maiden Voyage etc. One of the very misunderstood concepts of the 'modal' players (Miles, Trane, Shorter, etc.) is that they just played long one or two chord tunes (Impressions, So What, etc.). No, they were trying to get away from the trad bop vocabulary. They broke down the bigger key centers into smaller sub key centers. Exploring more possibilities over the chords than just the standard chord tones/alt tones. As some have said, 'trying to get away from the b9 to 3 thing' (on dom7th chords). All these players had a total and complete understanding of traditional harmony and chord tone playing too. I think that's obvious when listening to them. They were/are able to think modally over and across fast changes.
Anyway, enough of me defending Berklee. Great colleges all over the world and throughout history have produced multitudes of both good and bad students. Berklee is no different. You get out of it what you put in to it (shrug).

Yeah, I'm a 'modal' player if one were to classify me. It's a method that works for me.
As an example: when I play blues and it goes to the IV chord I don't usually think IV, I think im - dorian to be specific. It has all the cool elements of IV but is still rock solidly in the overall key of the tune. And unless it's a really trad blues when it's gets to V - even if the band is playing a V chord - I usually think iim (dorian). I stress 'usually'. Sometimes I think chord tones, other times I just play the blues scale of the key we're in. Again, it's not an either/or proposition. I like a gestalt approach. Don't think for a second that I or any other competent 'modal' player doesn't know what chord he's on or what the overall key center is.

For anyone that really wants to get into 'modal' playing as it applies to improvisation ... if you don't know already know your chord tones? forget it. Learn chord tone playing and basic harmony first.

* For night and day, try G Phrygian over the Abmaj7 and the G7+. That's modal playing in action. Make sure you resolve to C major

[slowpinky]

The chord/scale relationship method that they try to teach is to gear you up for John coltrane and Wayne shorter type songs where each chord may be the key of the moment or may have a non-standard resolution which can alter some of your choices.

These guys composed tunes with those sounds in mind - they were at the front of a lot of the discourse about modes - and wrote some beautiful music to explore it.
- a great example is ESP -

its a derivative of a standard song form. But the first cadence is E7alt to F maj.
You can target the chord tones - E,G#,C, D - F,G etc - but youre also targeting the tones of F min/maj.
If you think modally - its just F melodic minor to F major - which is simple parallel harmony - on another level its also a C9#5 chord - the dominant of F. The functions in melodic minor harmony are ambiguous , so the possibilities open up.

The trick (as I mentioned above) is to know your scales/modes but be creative with them. Playing those scales will sound - well, like scales. But creating melodies with them creates a unique relationship between the chords.

The texts hardly ever talk about rhythm either.
Without a great 1/8 note groove, and and a sense of placement, no melodic/harmonic
wizardry is going to sound hip. Theres another aspect to this too - the syntax of jazz isnt passed down through the theory - its like any other idiom. Its passed on by the music - and without learning the lines and voicings aurally from the music - the conceptual part of the pedagogy is worthless. A half decent jazz programme addresses the need to get your basics down - conceptually and on the instrument - voiceleading chord tones, recognising key centres - cadential analysis - and the role of secondary dominants in modulation etc.

It also sets essential tasks in transcribing, practicing sounds, learning repertoire and composing with those tools. And every now and then a student finds some remarkable things with the abstract material - and comes up with something fresh.

[teledaddyo]

I agree with some of everything you cats have dropped up there. Modes aren't a cure-all. I thought in my youth they were the key to the soloing kingdom and came to find out in school they were useful tools when applied alongside rhythmic and harmonic tools in the creation and understanding of lead lines. I think learning the vernacular, both solos of other musicians and the songs themselves (Changes, head, form) help one assimilate the ideas and have the foundation to explore concepts of modal playing. I can honestly say I don't step out into any playing situation and aim for a mode period. I may use it as a starting point but generally I let my ears do the listening and my fingers do the speaking. Visualizing the notes in my head and hearing them come out of the instrument is more useful to me than remembering the formulas for all the modes. We learned them as altered Major and Minor scales ex. dorian is a minor with a raised 6th.
Don Latarski has a great guitar book- Practical Theory for Guitar which goes through all the modes, the minor derivations, and altered scales (whole tone, dim. aug, symmetrical) and has audible clips and fingerings for the whole fretboard. In my instruction I teach my students to find the fingerings that work for them, master them and incorporate into their vocabulary then try to play them without sounding contrived, and scalar. Focusing too much on one area leaves out all the possibilities the rest of the instrument holds. When you can play 10 different voicings of a 7b9 chord you have 10 different areas you can pull out notes that are guaranteed to work over that 7b9 chord and you don't have to think dorian b2 to get there. It's more organic and less heady which in the end is what music's all about- creating from the moment not from prefab ingredients.

[Twin and Twang]

First off, thank you everyone for contributing. I know there are a few "mode" threads already and was wary starting a new one. Those threads just didn't work for me, though.

After a lot of thought at work, I came to visualize the modal system. Went home to check it out and sure enough I feel secure that I at least have my own way of understanding it. Having been self taught and having played for a long time, I've found that I usually discover names for things after I have already been applying them. Sure enough, I've been using predominantly two or three modes for years, just been "feeling" them rather than "thinking" them. Now I'm confident that I'll be able to smoothly, melodically and rhythmically apply some new modes (and feels) to my solos. Really excited about all this. And I am now going to work through the entirety of this thread, as you all have very excellent things to say. I like the "understand it, but don't be confined by it" advice.

Thanks again!

I'll follow up some more later. At work now (and would rather be playing!!!).