Why is it not called the "tenth"?

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by telequacktastic

BigDaddyLH, would you like me to tell you where (which text I originally) learned this. I don't have an emotional need to cleanse the tdpri temple, and tell folks that they are wrong. I just don't know where ppl learned that extended chords come from the same major scale.

I can tell you that I've heard many jazz players use the +11 when voicing an 11th chord. I know the 11th is treated differently in jazz harmony.

I took some music classes at Uni, which was a long time ago, and we used Walter Piston's Harmony, a standard text.

But I'm a jazz guy and I see where you're coming from. The #11 has been part of the furniture in jazz since bebop. If I were playing around harmonizing a "C major" chord, I would use the #11 more often than the natural 11, but as a matter of notation, it's called a #11 -- otherwise it's confusing.

For example: GMaj7(#11): 35x422

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by telequacktastic

BigDaddyLH, would you like me to tell you where (which text I originally) learned this. I don't have an emotional need to cleanse the tdpri temple, and tell folks that they are wrong. I just don't know where ppl learned that extended chords come from the same major scale.

I can tell you that I've heard many jazz players use the +11 when voicing an 11th chord. I know the 11th is treated differently in jazz harmony.

I'm really not being a smart aleck here, but the answer to the bolded part above is every theory source available. The numbers in extended chords come from the same place the first seven numbers do : the major scale. In the key of C major, F natural = the 4th and the 11th. Always has.

[AWH-NJ]

Originally Posted by telequacktastic

I think there is something incorrector unclear about this statement too.

C Major 11 = C, E, G, B, D, F#
C Minor 11 = C, Eb, G, Bb, D, F natural
C Dominant 11 = C, E, G, Bb, D, F#

Just wondering why you thought the Cmaj11 and C11 would have an F#...?

Originally Posted by jbmando

Any C11 I have ever seen is a chord containing C E G Bb D and F. When the F is sharp, it's called a #11.

So you would call that chord C#11?

I would call it C9#11.



So much for being crystal clear. See? Two can play that game.

[AWH-NJ]

This thread is a prime example as to why some people hate theory and others are scared to learn it

[BigDaddyLH]

And here I found this thread good natured!

[telequacktastic]

This thread is a prime example as to why some people hate theory and others are scared to learn it

Who's fault is it that one has fear? I thought we were all disscusing the finer points of jazz notation. I don"t feel bad when I've said something that others don't agree with. I guess some are sensitive and paranoid.

Just wondering why you thought the Cmaj11 and C11 would have an F#...?

That's how I learned it at UNT

[telequacktastic]

but the answer to the bolded part above is every theory source available.

This is not what I've seen, kind sir. If you would like me to recommend some jazz theory books I can do that when I get off work. I honestly couldn't think of one theory book that calls out a major 11th chord with a natual 11 or 4.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by telequacktastic

This is not what I've seen, kind sir. If you would like me to recommend some jazz theory books I can do that when I get off work. I honestly couldn't think of one theory book that calls out a major 11th chord with a natual 11 or 4.

I've got Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book at home. I'll check it tonight.

[telequacktastic]

I've got Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book at home. I'll check it tonight.

That's a good one, Dan Haerle's "The Jazz Language" is also a good one.

[telequacktastic]

[QUOTE]So you would call that chord C#11?

I would call it C9#11.



So much for being crystal clear. See? Two can play that game.[QUOTE]

I never mentioned anything regarding notation or how to write it, this is where it gets debatable. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings dude.

[jazztele]

I think you're misremembering something they taught you at UNT.

My guess is the lesson was prefaced with the idea that jazz players often raise the 11th if it's included in a chord, (I still hear folks say the 4th is an "avoid note" on a major chord, but my ears don't mind the sound) but you still have to specify it in the chord spelling. I have seen actual 11th chords in jazz charts, and certainly m11.

Most of the time, if I see a maj7 type chord with an 11th, it's been raised (it's the lydian sound) but the chart will still specify Cmaj7#11 or whatever. A maj11 chord is a pretty rare thing, but it can exist.

[brewwagon]

[telequacktastic]

My guess is the lesson was prefaced with the idea that jazz players often raise the 11th if it's included in a chord, (I still hear folks say the 4th is an "avoid note" on a major chord, but my ears don't mind the sound) but you still have to specify it in the chord spelling.

You are welcome to have the opinion that I mis-remembered something. The fact that your "ears don't mind" the natural 11th is also fine, how you would like to notate the C major 11th chord is also another thing. I simply spelled the major 11th, minor 11th, and dom 11th chords and they are correct.

[slowpinky]

On the road for a few days and I miss this ? No way!

Teaching this stuff, referring to Larry's post earlier, its virtually impossible to teach Jazz theory without referring to classical harmony - I certainly wouldnt want to get my students to feel that chords are like dead lumps of notes that 'happen' to occur like railway tracks under a melody - which is kind of how Jazz theory was introduced to me - and also how it looks on a lead sheet.

I like my students to appreciate that chords are also like slices of a multi-layered cake - and each layer is a tune! And nobody does or illustrates that better than Bach.

So as to the 10th - its a legitimate interval - and for a while in Europe I was reading charts with 7b10 chords - (written by a theory Professor!) - for the simple reason that as many have said -its heard as a flat 3rd - particularly if it has a natural 5th -i.e not altered.

An altered dominant is a different animal - the #9 and the #5 are also part of a maj triad which includes the root note - i.e in C7 altered - an Ab triad....

As to the Resolution issues, I would consider the "#9" as a Reciprocal Major 3rd. DOWN fron the 5th

Makes sense to me - part of the 'effect' of chords with such strong dissonances is an often inherent bi - or polytonal effect created by the juxtaposition of stacked triads. You can see this in the simplest extension of a Cmaj7 chord up to its 13th-....but your C7#9(with a natural 5th) is really an Eb triad over a C triad .. that's (for me) the flavour of that chord - the amalgam of thirds and its association with the blues.

Great thread - havent seen a meaty one like this for awhile....

[brewwagon]

geez some of these chords in this thread

"i got a bad hand cramp and ran out of fingers"

[telequacktastic]

I know, I keep checking back and nobody has anything to say.

[BigDaddyLH]

"When all's said and done, there's nothing left to say or do."

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by telequacktastic

You are welcome to have the opinion that I mis-remembered something. The fact that your "ears don't mind" the natural 11th is also fine, how you would like to notate the C major 11th chord is also another thing. I simply spelled the major 11th, minor 11th, and dom 11th chords and they are correct.

You're welcome to have the opinion that you're correct, but you're not.

[telequacktastic]

To achieve a better, more open (Lydian) sound the 11th is always sharpened in the major chord and most of the time in the dominant chord.

To construct chords that extend beyond the 9th use therefore these scales :


major chords : the Lydian mode = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

dominant chords : the Lydian Dominant scale = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (see Lesson 20)

minor chords : the Dorian mode =1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Modern chord voicings and chord substitutions use pluralities built on the chord's 3rd.
This means that the root is omitted, but both essential tones, the 3 and 7, are present in the chord.

Omitting the chord root gives the music a less predictable and contemporary quality.
The root of the chord (C in the example below) is either played by another instrument (e.g. the bass in a small Jazz ensemble), or inferred by the melody or improvisation in the right hand.
Note the switch in chord quality :




Jeff, I got this example from http://jazclass.aust.com/lessons/jt/jt19.htm What did I miss exactly?

[McGlamRock]

On the link you provide, they always denote "#11" when referring to the major chords in dispute