Why is it not called the "tenth"?

[telequacktastic]

To jazz dudes like me, its assumed to be natural if they don't call it out as altered. So G7#9... which is a dominant chord.... ok to the jazz folks that could be interpreted as:

G the root (can be omitted in a voicing bc the bass player may play that note and is somewhat implied)
B the M3rd (should NOT be omitted bc that is a key essential to the quality of the chord)
D the P5th (can be omitted bc the bass player may play that note and is less implied)
F the flat 7 (should NOT be omitted bc it is another key essential in the harmony)
Bb or A# the #9 (should NOT be omitted bc well, it wouldn't be a #9 chord anymore)

An altered chord does not necessarily mean you use the altered scale, its simply a color tone. Hope that helps

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by telequacktastic

To jazz dudes like me, its assumed to be natural if they don't call it out as altered. So G7#9... which is a dominant chord.... ok to the jazz folks that could be interpreted as:

G the root (can be omitted in a voicing bc the bass player may play that note and is somewhat implied)
B the M3rd (should NOT be omitted bc that is a key essential to the quality of the chord)
D the P5th (can be omitted bc the bass player may play that note and is less implied)
F the flat 7 (should NOT be omitted bc it is another key essential in the harmony)
Bb or A# the #9 (should NOT be omitted bc well, it wouldn't be a #9 chord anymore)

An altered chord does not necessarily mean you use the altered scale, its simply a color tone. Hope that helps

You know more about this stuff than I do, but, IMO, it really feeds the confusion and keeps theory illiteracy alive when you call the #9 Bb or A#. It's only A#. If it were Bb it would be the flattened third or 10th. People have to start realizing that enharmonic tones are not to be used interchangeably in theory.

[telequacktastic]

Well, I guess I don't see the difference in an A# or a Bb. Its a matter of taste said the man who kissed the cow.

[jbmando]

Cute cow-kissing analogies notwithstanding, there is a big theory difference. The ninth degree of a G scale is A, not B. To sharp the 9th, you have to write A#. Yes it sounds the same but it isn't written the same.

[telequacktastic]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The cow kissing analogy is totally withstanding.

[jbmando]

Well, you aren't only disagreeing with me.

[klasaine]

The #9 is the same as the #2, only up an octave from the lowest root of the chord.
In G you absolutely can not 'academically' in any style of music - jazz, classical or otherwise - ever call it anything but A#. You'd get a big red mark on your theory test if you did.

*Personally, I think of it and call it a Bb (the minor third because it sounds minor or lowered to me) in the key of G ... but I'd never write it that way when 'spelling' the chord in notation. It's also very cluttered on the staff having a major 3rd and a minor 3rd with potentially two (or even sometimes three) different accidental symbols. (You will see that once in awhile - mixed accidentals - but copyists/composers/editors try their best to avoid it like the plague ... it's a b1tch to read!)

[Wally]

Well, my first memories are of living on a farm....with cows around. ONE thing a farm kid knows is that there is definitely a difference in which end of a cow that one might kiss!!!
+1 with jbmando here. Isn't the 'magic' of the #9th chord that disonnance that is created between the #9th and the major 3rd? As mentioned above by telequackstic himself, that third defines the chord. IF you flat it, you have a minor chord. IF you don't flat it, you have a major chord....with whatever other intervals you might add to it.
Is that a correct point of view on the G7#9 chord that might resolve the disagreement?



Ya'll know my theory is really weak. My Sense of humor is good today, though, right? ONe doesnt have to kiss the wrong end of a cow to know that it stinks back there!?!?!?!!

[telequacktastic]

My Sense of humor is good today, though, right? ONe doesnt have to kiss the wrong end of a cow to know that it stinks back there!?!?!?!!

That literally did make me smile Wally! I've always been a fan of southern humor.

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by klasaine

The #9 is the same as the #2, only up an octave from the lowest root of the chord.
In G you absolutely can not 'academically' in any style of music - jazz, classical or otherwise - ever call it anything but A#. You'd get a big red mark on your theory test if you did.

*Personally, I think of it and call it a Bb (the minor third because it sounds minor or lowered to me) in the key of G ... but I'd never write it that way when 'spelling' the chord in notation. It's also very cluttered on the staff having a major 3rd and a minor 3rd with potentially two (or even sometimes three) different accidental symbols. (You will see that once in awhile - mixed accidentals - but copyists/composers/editors try their best to avoid it like the plague ... it's a b1tch to read!)

And yet, if we think of it and even call it Bb, should we not actually call the chord G7b10 rather than G7#9, even though I was kidding before? I'm with Ken. I think of it and call it the minor third when I play this chord.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Boy, it is difficult for me to hear the major third as a flat 4 in this chord. Also, what about the 5th of the G7#9, the note D. This note is not found in the G altered scale. Is this because the 5th is not considered part of the chord? I'm not judging, just trying to hear the chord in relation to the altered scale.

The altered scale is a crazy thing. What makes a scale a "scale" anyway? G altered is technically the 7th mode of the Ab melodic minor scale (ascending) but I usually don't think of it as a scale but rather as a bunch of colour tones: you have the skeleton of a G dominant (G B and F), b5 and #5 tones (Db and Eb) and b9 and #9 (Ab and Bb) -- then stir in some enharmonic notation to make it look like a scale.

As for the Dnat in G7#9 clashing with the Db and Eb -- I like the tension! I'd say G altered works over a vanilla G7 as long as it resolves.

[telequacktastic]

I remember in Jazz Guitar Fundamentals class going up to the professor with Joe Pass' Chord Solos (the book with Joe's Blues and Watch What Happens in notation) and asking him something along the lines of "What does this notation mean, shouldn't it be?" and being told "Well, how do you think it goes?" Under that premise I started realizing I had to use deductive reasoning and find the harmony in the context of the chord before it and after it. This shaped my working knowledge and carried over into this post. I think its all context and I feel you are better prepared for the working world of performing jazz if you use deductive reasoning to learn your parts.

I wouldn't bring it up to a band leader that "you should have written it like this".

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

As for the Dnat in G7#9 clashing with the Db and Eb -- I like the tension! I'd say G altered works over a vanilla G7 as long as it resolves.

I was afraid someone would bring up the idea of resolution. Since we're here, then, where does the #9 resolve? If in C and the V chord G7#9, the A# can only resolve on B. If it were Bb, then it would resolve to A. When A#, the I chord would be C maj7. If Bb, then C6. If I is not the resolving chord, then A# could resolve on B, the fifth of Em. If Bb, it could resolve on Am, Dm, and F maj. For jazz, you can add extensions to all these chords.

However, the concept of resolution of tendency tones is stronger in classical music than jazz. Think of how often guitarists use voicings in which the tendency tones jump to non-resolutions. This is one reason why jazz does not sound the same as classical (in the mid-18th-early 19th sense).

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by acalan

Too much theory for me.

Noted.

[jazztele]

Since when is it not called the tenth?

EDIT: Oh, we're talking chords. Well, there's no "3rd" chord either.

[Wally]

IF this chord..
x
x
3
3
2
3
or...
6
6
4
3
5
3

were to be called G7b10, wouldn't it involve having two different notes for the 3rd interval of the scale??? The chord name G7#9 avoids that, doesn't it? Did I pass, KEn?

IF we drop/eliminate the B natural..the major third, then what do we have?
3
3
3
3
5
3

We flatted the 3rd(?enharmonically? sharped the 9th).....Gm chord, right? So, I agree with ....which Ken and jb that we can 'hear' a minor 3rd in this G7#9, but we also hear the major 3rd. The dissonance is what we are after with the #9. Why not cal it GMm....hey, that is close to the Gjimi I suggested earlier in a response that I did not post!!! LOL

I am still ....G7#9. I don't see how we 'call' a major
3rd and a minor 3rd---b10-- in the same chord....even if the frequency of a
b10 is the same frequency of a #9.

Here's one for you.....????
13
0
0
0
0
0

Em11b23 ?????

How do you play an Em#26?

Come on...someone kiss that cow!!! I haven't seen that since Joe Bob got sent away for 'correction'.

[jbmando]

Wally you can have two different notes as the third degree of the scale within a chord if you choose to name it that way. We are not talking about how it sounds, we are talking about how to spell it on a staff. What we hear has nothing to do with what we call it. If you spell a chord G B D F Bb, it HAS to be called G7b10, or as you note, GMajor/minor. If you call it G7#9, it HAS to be spelled G B D F A#, EVEN THOUGH THE TWO CHORDS SOUND IDENTICAL.
I would amend what I said before about how I think of that note and what I call it. When I fret the chord like this: 353466, I think of that note as a Bb, and as a minor third along with a major third. When I fret it like this: X 10 9 10 11 X, then I think of it as A# and call it #9. Why? I don't know.

[jbmando]

BTW, Wally, 353333 is a Gm7. There's no B natural there. Both of your first two chords are G7#9. The point is what name you give to the #9 note. If you call it Bb, it's b10, if you call it A# it's #9.

[brewwagon]

enharmonic note

(with all kudos respects and thank yous i like how the music professor types get all ruffled explaining stuff )

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Wally

x
x
3
3
2
3
or...
6
6
4
3
5
3

were to be called G7b10, wouldn't it involve having two different notes for the 3rd interval of the scale??? The chord name G7#9 avoids that, doesn't it? Did I pass, Ken?

A+

Theoretically you can call that first voicing G7b10 and the second one 'theoretically' G7b17 (m3 is two octaves above lowest root, or G7#16 - how's that for f'd up?) ... but I wouldn't - unless you want the Nipper the RCA dog look from a keyboard player(?).