Why is it not called the "tenth"?

[BigDaddyLH]

I think this thread can withstand some diversions. I saw this version of the "Bond/Pink Panther" chord elsewhere:

Emin13(Maj7): 025642

Me likey long time!

[slowpinky]

Fascinating stuff...Larry, you mentioned that the quality of the intervals in the continuo part above is determined by the key signature - isnt the key signature an indication of the notes in the scale? Isnt a scale simply representative of the consonant or diatonic tones of a key? It may be purely semantics, and I dont disagree with the notion that the relationship between chords and scales is overstated - but it sure would be interesting to research the history of that theory.


There is a lot of music in the 20th century in particular which is based on harmony generated by just the resonance - consonant or dissonant between tones - Hindemith's system of chords is an example of some the theory behind that. Pitch class is another way of describing those relationships - in order to remove a sense of the old terms of tonality from the nomenclature.

But I have to say that in jazz - the relationship between chords and scales isnt purely academic - and that at some point especially from the Bebop era onward, there was some conscious application by some pretty innovative players in the genre including Bird, Coltrane , Miles, Bill Evans, Dave Leibman, Scofield and others - and many of those were students of George Russell. Of course there are great players who havent employed the chord /scale thing to the same degree as well. But certainly one of the most 'convenient' ways to explore complex harmony as an improviser is by knowing how the two types of constructs relate. And that proabably has its roots in theory that falls outside of the Western canon to some degree as well.

Sometimes I think that I'd give up any musical knowledge I've gained over the years to be able to accurately identify and play every interval I hear, either "out loud" or in my head. That might just be the pinnacle.

+1 -after all the study and listening over all of these years, its what I come back to - and forms the core of my own practice - and interestingly, all my scale practice is essentially intervallic.But you know, even at the core of the Lydian Chromatic concept , is an understanding that its the intervals within each scale (and those outside of it) that create the gravity, not simply the scale entire against the chord..

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I think this thread can withstand some diversions. I saw this version of the "Bond/Pink Panther" chord elsewhere:

Emin13(Maj7): 025642

Me likey long time!

Oh man, that's all kinds of good.

[rolling56]

Now where's that dead horse at?

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I think this thread can withstand some diversions. I saw this version of the "Bond/Pink Panther" chord elsewhere:

Emin13(Maj7): 025642

Me likey long time!

Yeah, yeah! Where's the 'LIKE' button.

*Other than than some older blues guys that I know personally. The musicians I'm in contact with that have the best ears - either perfect pitch or seemingly instantaneous relative pitch guys - are also the ones that know and utilize academic harmony knowledge a lot.

[jazztele]

True enough Ken. As my "book smarts" have gotten better my "street smarts" have as well.

There probably is no one and not the other for normal folks like me.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I think this thread can withstand some diversions. I saw this version of the "Bond/Pink Panther" chord elsewhere:

Emin13(Maj7): 025642

Me likey long time!

Gorgeous chord..

also as a ii chord in Bm? maybe?

025642
335340
220220

[Mjark]

Originally Posted by jazztele

An interval is the space between two notes, in a scale or not.

Sometimes I think that I'd give up any musical knowledge I've gained over the years to be able to accurately identify and play every interval I hear, either "out loud" or in my head. That might just be the pinnacle.

Wow, digression, eh?

Right the space. I could have phrased it better. But how do you describe the interval?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I think this thread can withstand some diversions. I saw this version of the "Bond/Pink Panther" chord elsewhere:

Emin13(Maj7): 025642

Me likey long time!

That is nice.....hits it.

[AWH-NJ]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Yeah, yeah! Where's the 'LIKE' button.

*Other than than some older blues guys that I know personally. The musicians I'm in contact with that have the best ears - either perfect pitch or seemingly instantaneous relative pitch guys - are also the ones that know and utilize academic harmony knowledge a lot.

Originally Posted by jazztele

True enough Ken. As my "book smarts" have gotten better my "street smarts" have as well.

There probably is no one and not the other for normal folks like me.

Same here. But there have been threads on other forums about "theory vs. feeling". Which is ridiculous if you ask me.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by AWH-NJ

Same here. But there have been threads on other forums about "theory vs. feeling". Which is ridiculous if you ask me.

True. But I've done my best to make those folks feel as unwelcome and alienated as possible . This is the theory section.

[Budda]

Originally Posted by Mjark

Right the space. I could have phrased it better. But how do you describe the interval?

Maybe as a Ratio?

Like this:

2/1 = ratio of a just octave

3/2 = ratio of a just fifth

[Larry F]

Theory and ear-training have a close, but sometimes troubled relationship in academics. There are lots of dichotomies. Ideally, ear-training should be taught in close conjunction with book theory, for obvious reasons. However, I'd estimate that a good third of our undergrad theory students lag in one or the other. One aspect of our curriculum we revisit every 5 years or so, is whether to keep both topics together under one name and section, or whether to de-couple them. We have never de-coupled as long as I have been here. But it is frustrating for a student who excels at book theory to fail the entire course when it is the ear that needs work.

Another dichotomy is whether ear training should focus strongly (or even only) on tonal ear training or also include abstract intervals. By tonal, I am referring to tonality, the name for harmonic practice from, say, 1750 to 1900. I got reamed by someone on the forum once for these dates, so go ahead and substitute your own, and include all the necessary sentences of qualifiers. The tonal system is based on the idea of chords that have functions like tonic-dominant relations, and other chord patterns based on the idea of resolution. Almost all classical music in that time period, jazz, blues (in its way), popular, country, bluegrass, polka, folk, etc. music is to varying degrees tonal. Tonal ear-training focus on the relations notes have to each other in they in which they reside. For example, the notes in a major key of scale 1 and scale degree 3 are a major third. In a minor key, a minor third. Between degrees 3 and 5 in a major key, a minor third. Between 3 and 5 in a minor key, a major third. Since a great deal of the music played by music majors is tonal, it makes sense for them to learn intervals this way. The opposite approach is considering the absolute distance between pitches. For many students with good ears, thinking of intervals in the absolute rather than relative, tonal sense, is very difficult. Our theory area used to leave this matter up to the individual teacher. Increasingly, the teachers coordinate with each other more than before. I really don't know if absolute intervals are used in ear training. Both viewpoints have merit.

In learning absolute intervals, it is a widespread practice for students to use mnemonics. For example, an ascending major 6th is the first two notes of "N B C." A minor seventh is the first two notes of Bernstein's song from West Side Story, "Tonight."

In learning tonal intervals, I found the solfege system is very, very good. Instead of singing, in a major scale, "1 ,2 ,3 ,4 ,5 ,6 ,7 8," in solfege you sing, "do re mi fa sol la ti do." Probably related to my inability to sing on pitch without a lot of work, I struggled for years with dictation and sight-singing. As grad students, we had to pass six practicum exams, which included figured-bass realization at sight, Bach choral transcription, and sight-singing of either a song by Schubert or Schumann, or that level, or an aria from an opera. I practiced sight-singing use scale degree, like, "1 3 3 2 5 5 #4 5 nat 4, 3 5 2 7 1." One of my classmates was hired by the department to help students pass the practicums. You could not defend your these until all practicums and languages were finished. My friend put his foot down and insisted I learn solfege. The first day in the shower I could definitely tell the improvement. Within a few days, I could zip around all over the place with this. (The system has ways to sharp and flat notes, as well as modulating to a new key and back. A month later I passed on a Wagner aria that changed keys at least 4 times. Solfege gave me a rock solid orientation. It would up being one of those things in life that was ridiculously easy once I knew the method.

As for Jeff's goal of alway being able to identify any interval, I can at least identify the two scale degrees. When I was paralyzed 5 years ago and in the hospital, I did a lot of hearing and playing in my head. Now when I listen to music, it seems sometimes that I can out out into it and know every note and interval in frozen real time. What a blessing it is to finally be able to do something like that. I would guess that for many people here, a month of solfege will change your ear. (Make sure you use the moveable do method).

[Larry F]

Another method of describing an interval is the number of semitones. Minor third = 3; minor seventh = 10; etc.

A branch of music theory as a discipline is called transformational theory. Here, an interval is described as a transposition by n semitones. For example, a minor third above any note is described by the transformation T3. This may seem cumbersome at first, too much work for a single interval. But atonal analysis (atonal = not in a key) often reveals interesting structures through nested transformations or networks of transformations.

[AWH-NJ]

Originally Posted by klasaine

True. But I've done my best to make those folks feel as unwelcome and alienated as possible . This is the theory section.

That's usually my goal too.

It's always those who don't know theory too well that claim they don't need it and feeling is all that's important. I can't understand how someone would think music theory knowledge will suck out all the feeling or creativity. The "science" does not diminish (no pun intended) the "art".

I had to laugh at these guys on another forum who were saying stuff like "extensive theory knowledge is the reason so many songs sound the same". My reply was something like "ok so the guy who knows dozens of chords and scales and how to apply it is going to write all songs that sound the same, but the guy who knows 10 chords, one pentatonic scale mode, and no theory will somehow magically come up all these brilliant and unique ideas?"

[Big Tony]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Theory and ear-training have a close, but sometimes troubled relationship in academics. - - - - I would guess that for many people here, a month of solfege will change your ear. (Make sure you use the moveable do method).

Very interesting post. Thanks, Larry!

/ Tony

[Bolide]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I think this thread can withstand some diversions. I saw this version of the "Bond/Pink Panther" chord elsewhere:

Emin13(Maj7): 025642

Me likey long time!

I'm gonna have to see if this is also the mystery chord at the end of Edwin Astley's High Wire.

That would be a British Hat trick and

[brewwagon]

part of being a musician is having an open mind to learn something new this is how we grow

theory gives us all a way to expand our knowledge and explain what we might hear when encountering music either on a sheet or live thru our ears

to not know how to talk about and read music well that limits us as does fighting about concepts of expression

if you took a class of artists and asked them to paint a defined picture would you not get 30 different paintings?

music is the same

the sad thing is to alienate anyone because they do not understand or see or hear things from a different perspective right or wrong

only thru questioning discussion experiments do we move collectively foward this creates new ways of thinking and even more growth knowledge evoultion

[robotguitar]

Originally Posted by Bolide

I'm gonna have to see if this is also the mystery chord at the end of Edwin Astley's High Wire.

That would be a British Hat trick and

SOrry but this chord is rather silly and hard to play. Doesn't seem to want to resolve anywhere but to an E minor. much better is 026422

[slowpinky]

Doesn't seem to want to resolve anywhere but to an E minor. much better is 026422

How can 1 chord be better than another one? Hard to play? - yeah I'll buy that: doesnt make it silly though...

(I got the afore-mentioned chord resolving to Bm with out too much drama btw.).