Scales with 'out' notes for blues and rock

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Budda

Hre's a quick way to access the Melodic Minor 1/2 Step Up from any Dominant Chord:

Play m7b5 Arpeggios off of the Root and the b7th. (A Whole Step Below the Root).

Over D7, play Cm7b5 and Dm7b5.

This sounds good in a G Blues, over the V7 (D7).

Pentatonic minor off the b9 and major 3rd is good too.

So over a G7 you would get the following relationships:

Ab Pentatonic minor:
Ab : B : Db : Eb : Gb : Ab
b9 : 3 : b5 : b13 : 7 : b9

B Pentatonic minor:

B : D : E : F#: A
3 : 5 : 13: 7 : 9

Also, don't discount passing tones.
For instance you could take a regular G Pentatonic Minor scale and use the pentatonic box at the 5th fret:



When I look at like that I see some passing tones between the b7 and the root and again between the b3 and 4th.



I have a pattern that I do a lot (probably too much) that I think sound quite cool.
I did a quick (meaning bad) recording of the line that you can hear here:

http://www.jamesrichmond.com/audio/p...icbox_idea.mp3

I just choose my exit note depending on where I am in the song.
You can use the same line/idea in applied/extended situations (off the b9 or 3rd etc) as outlined above too.

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by dburns

Try throwing in some m7b5 arpeggios a Major Third up from dominant 7 chords.

For example, in a G blues: Mess around with an Em7b5 arpeggios/licks over the C7 (IV) chord.

Just to explain the "why" here-- Em7b5= a rootless C9 chord.

Not really an outside sound, but a cool sound nonetheless...I like to show folks arpeggio superimposition because it breaks them out of ruts instantly--there's no root to hang on in this example, uh...for example.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by Charlesinator

JJ, you know you are my man and I've got your back, but ...



Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwt9eKDxbbM

How you can't appreciate Robben Ford, is beyond me this is a textbook answer to the question you asked. I can't get this CD out of my player.

Try this next vid it is a little more blues influenced than the other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f64XZ...eature=related

Sorry, man.....I tried'em and they're just way too "white" for my tastes. The only part of either that I really liked was 3:57 into "Cold, Cold".....and that's only because Carlton was aping BB King licks.




Still, I always appreciate the exposure to new music, even if the exposure only rarely leads to someting I'll enjoy.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

To quote Bruce Lee: Don't think..... Feeeeel.

Let's say you're playing the normal pent wank box in A Minor. To turn it on it's head Robben style, check this out:



I call it the "Break-out-of- the-box Box".

Thanks, man. I never play a straight pentatonic....how could anyone do that? My "pentatonic" is a meld of Dorian and Aeolian, VERY much like the above picture except with a b6 thrown in and the 7 virtually ignored (it's rare that I play it in a blues context....I'll use is more for rock or when things get a little psychedelic).

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Just to explain the "why" here-- Em7b5= a rootless C9 chord.

Not really an outside sound, but a cool sound nonetheless...I like to show folks arpeggio superimposition because it breaks them out of ruts instantly--there's no root to hang on in this example, uh...for example.

This is a good point.

When I first heard superlocrian I thought it was 'extremely weird and outside' where not I think of it as inside an altered chord (or vice versa, really).

Truly outside playing is really something that people use very rarely.
I think what JJ (forgive me for second guessing you, mate) was really asking was 'inside playing of greater sophistication'.
Or am I wrong?

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by jazztele

Just to explain the "why" here-- Em7b5= a rootless C9 chord.

Not really an outside sound, but a cool sound nonetheless...I like to show folks arpeggio superimposition because it breaks them out of ruts instantly--there's no root to hang on in this example, uh...for example.

Yeah, but don't listen to jazztele too much...he'll get ya in trouble! At my roommate's birthday party last month a bunch of his friends (all muicians) came over and, obviously, guitars came out at some point. Late into the night after we'd been playing for a while I start noodling blues while we stare at each other trying to figure out what to play next. My roommate offers to play a mini-blues jam so we do, I offer to start with rhythm and he can solo. After about a minute he looks at me, slightly cross, and says, "Dude, can I get a root-note please!?"



Now, sure, we were both intoxicated (and it was my fault for trying to play a root-less 9 chord on the 1, T-Bone Walker style) but some of these jazz chords will screw with your head!

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Truly outside playing is really something that people use very rarely.
I think what JJ (forgive me for second guessing you, mate) was really asking was 'inside playing of greater sophistication'.
Or am I wrong?

I think that's it. As for the Em7b5 arp over C7, the D note it delivers is the major ninth of C7 -- that's the most inside and consonant note you can play over C7 that is not in the chord. A better example would be an Edim7 arp (E-G-Bb-Db) where you resolve the Db to C. Still not outside, just a but of tension.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by octatonic

I think what JJ (forgive me for second guessing you, mate) was really asking was 'inside playing of greater sophistication'.
Or am I wrong?

Sorry, Jim...I meant "outside" (by my definition, maybe or even probably not yours). I'll take the greater sophistication stuff, too, don't get me wrong. I was looking for a little skin-crawling, "that's so wrong" sort of sound that still sounds musical and resolves well. Wholetone-type sounds. 13 arpeggio over a dom7 type sounds. I got my answer (for now) but I'm very happy for the conversation to continue so I can learn more.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

Sorry, Jim...I meant "outside" (by my definition, maybe or even probably not yours). I'll take the greater sophistication stuff, too, don't get me wrong. I was looking for a little skin-crawling, "that's so wrong" sort of sound that still sounds musical and resolves well. Wholetone-type sounds. 13 arpeggio over a dom7 type sounds. I got my answer (for now) but I'm very happy for the conversation to continue so I can learn more.

Oh ok- no worries.

Well for outside stuff one of my fave bands is the Bad Plus.
Have a listen to this (I think I played it to you already though).



What we have here is a bass/drum minor riff establishment (with b5's in there too) then is perverted (oooh, so perverted) by the pianist laying the VERY major Chariots of Fire riff.

This track is really a masterclass in outside playing- what you can get away with when you have the right setup, the nerve to see it through and the appropriate exit notes.

I can't recommend it enough- the album 'Suspicious Activity' in in my top 10 albums of all time.

A dom13 arpeggio over a dom 7 chord is still inside playing.
You are just extending the dom 7 chord by continuing to stack major 3rds.
Outside would be playing a Major 9 arpeggio over a minor chord (for instance) but then finding a way back to playing inside that is smooth logical and musical.

The trick to playing outside isn't the outside playing itself, you can kinda do ANYTHING- the resolution and to a certain degree the entry into it is really (for me) when it starts to be musical and useful in improvisation.

Check this helpful link: http://www.opus28.co.uk/outside.pdf

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

Thanks, man. I never play a straight pentatonic....how could anyone do that?

Well, I do. It's the bricks and foundation of Blues and Rock guitar. Don't be too cork-sniffer about pent boxes. TG wasn't.

[jjkrause84]

[QUOTE=fezz parka;3005865]Well, I do. It's the bricks and foundation of Blues and Rock guitar. Don't be too cork-sniffer about pent boxes. TG wasn't.

Well, maybe I should re-phrase: I am never in a situation where some of the non-pent notes are not an option. Obviously I play lots of licks that are straight pent. but I couldn't do a whole song that way.....I lean way too heavily on the 3 (a result of my transription of early Clapton stuff when Ifirst started transcribing).

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

After about a minute he looks at me, slightly cross, and says, "Dude, can I get a root-note please!?":

See, that's when I'd say "wuss" and pare my voicings down to only a 3rd or 7th + a color tone...

Just consider me the Eddie Haskell of music theory.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Oh ok- no worries.

Well for outside stuff one of my fave bands is the Bad Plus.
Have a listen to this (I think I played it to you already though).

Yeah you did....at points it accomplishes one my highest musical goals: to make the pretty parts prettier by dissonance (either simultaneous or preceeding), if that makes sense.

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by octatonic

The trick to playing outside isn't the outside playing itself, you can kinda do ANYTHING- the resolution and to a certain degree the entry into it is really (for me) when it starts to be musical and useful in improvisation.

Absolutely.

And I'll add--attitude. You can't be all namby pamby about going outside--and sign of trepidation and it'll just sound like mistakes.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jazztele

See, that's when I'd say "wuss" and pare my voicings down to only a 3rd or 7th + a color tone...

Just consider me the Eddie Haskell of music theory.

Or comply- and launch into 'Giant Steps' playing just the root notes.

[middy]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

Thanks, man. I never play a straight pentatonic....how could anyone do that? My "pentatonic" is a meld of Dorian and Aeolian, VERY much like the above picture except with a b6 thrown in and the 7 virtually ignored (it's rare that I play it in a blues context....I'll use is more for rock or when things get a little psychedelic).

Sounds like you're already playing a bit "out."

I might play a b6 every now and then over the IV as a passing tone to the 6 (the major third of the IV chord), but that's a pretty un-bluesy note to play.

I don't see why you would avoid the the 7 seeing as it's a chord tone of the I in your typical dominant 7 blues... unless you meant the major 7?

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

I was looking for a little skin-crawling, "that's so wrong" sort of sound that still sounds musical and resolves well. Wholetone-type sounds.

Here is a little wholetone approach idea that I do a lot.
The riff (left speaker) is a blues-rock type idea that outlines a dom7 chord (you have the maj3rd and b7 in there).

I play a G whole-tone scale (right guitar) as an approach into the beginning of the solo.
I just gave you a snippet- very quickly recorded- but it outlines the idea.

http://www.jamesrichmond.com/audio/w...neapproach.mp3

As far as visualising the wholetone- I tend to use it most on the 2nd and 3rd strings as they are easier to finger:



Over a dominant chord the inside notes are R, 2, 3, b7.
Outside notes are #4, #5.

[jjkrause84]

The major 7, yes (in my mind its 7 or b7). I don't intentionally avoid it, it's just so rare that I can find a use for it.

The b6 is lots of fun, I think. I use it as a dark, dirty passing tone in Aeolian licks/runs (which often end up on the b3 or 4).

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Here is a little wholetone approach idea that I do a lot.
The riff (left speaker) is a blues-rock type idea that outlines a dom7 chord (you have the maj3rd and b7 in there).

I play a G whole-tone scale (right guitar) as an approach into the beginning of the solo.
I just gave you a snippet- very quickly recorded- but it outlines the idea.

http://www.jamesrichmond.com/audio/w...neapproach.mp3

Cool! Thanks. That's sorta heading in the wrong direction (except I am a much slower, cleaner* player). I need lots of 'space' to do my thing.


* Clean as in very little overdrive

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

Cool! Thanks. That's sorta heading in the wrong direction

'Wrong' as in right, right?