Talent vs Practice

[emu!]

Talent is subjective.

If a space craft full of aliens who never heard music before landed in Bakersfield (or substitute any music city), what would they think of the sounds they hear? Would they know if someone has practiced 10,000 hours or not?

[3 Chord]

Lot's of folks can pratice and rip on a guitar, but it is the ones with talent who are able to break out of the pack and offer something different. These are the ones who make their mark. SRV, Albert Lee and the countless others have talent. They probably were on to something after just a little practice, then the talent took over.

I say talent is the main thing that separates the great players from guys like me, without it, practice will only get you so far.

Practice doesn't make you think up cool grooves or give you feel. It just makes whatever your doing happen easier, and that might be a bad thing.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by emu!

Talent is subjective.

If a space craft full of aliens who never heard music before landed in Bakersfield (or substitute any music city), what would they think of the sounds they hear? Would they know if someone has practiced 10,000 hours or not?

are they cool aliens or the Dorky kind?

[Topfooldugster]

About 6 years ago I stumbled into being a high school guitar teacher. The most enjoyable job I've ever had. I have about 130 to 150 students a year, as well as a few private lessons. I am always blown away by the kid who has been playing for less than 2 years, and can play circles around me... and there has been at least one almost every year. Fortunately for me, they still need to understand what they're doing, and even pro athletes still need a coach. I agree that practise and time are important, but I play often six or seven days a week, and have been playing for many years, and I will never be as good as the talented ones. Having said that, I still love to play, and like playing with people better than me, as they make us all sound good.

[friedrice]

Aren't talents advantages you're actually born with, like photographic memory. The word is being stretched to refer to people who've worked very hard, and isn't the desire to play music was something that was developed?

[jjkrause84]

I gotta say practice, if for no other reason than it's a positive thing that everyone can do. EVERYONE can get better, most people can get good, only a few can become great. My natural talent is at best mediocre, and perhaps it has helped me along the way, but the REAL changes to my playing have ALL come from specific practice.

If you practice well and often you WILL get good one day....eventually....

[J-man]

Too many variables to come to any real answer, IMO.

Who's to say what we percieve as talent isn't, to at least some extent, the result of practice we didn't realise we had because we don't associate the actions/events with guitar playing/music? For instance, a person who spent time studying foreign languages may years later pick up a guitar and, as a result of their study find it easier to memorize and figure out melodies, chord progressions from hearing a song. Not a great example but hopefully it illustrates my point..

[Tommy Biggs]

Practice will only take you so far - far enough to be "good" as in the OP Poll question. to be great takes both.

How good are we talkin' here?

[TxTeleMan]

Originally Posted by allen st. john

What's more important to being a "good" player?
Practice.
What's more important to being a "great" player?
Talent.

Change it to sports. To get to a point in basketball where you can shoot baskets consistently and dribble effectively, there's no substitute for practice.

But no matter how much I practice and how much I improve, I'm never going to be Michael Jordan. I'm going to reach a point where I'm just not getting any better. (I did something pretty close to that in tennis, actually.)

That's what the NBA Dev league and AAA baseball is, a bunch of guys who reached the ceiling of their talent. (Mixed in with some talented guys who weren't willing to work hard enough.)

Talent or practice? You need both.

Pretty much.

Eric Johnson put in 6-8 hours of practice a day to get as good as he was. No matter how many hours I put in, I won't be able to play as well as he does.

Originally Posted by getbent

What gets missed in this equation is the talent to be happy to practice...

being able to concentrate and focus and work toward a goal... that is a great natural talent that is very difficult to acquire...

This, too.

I don't have whatever it takes to put in 6 - 8 hours a day of practice.

- - - - - -

All this being said, I do practice, and when I do, I work on not only improving speed and technique, but also learning more... more about scales, chords, fingerings, licks and their applications, etc.

This makes me a better player.

Bottom line?

1. Practice lets you achieve your talent.
2. Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent, so be sure and practice well, and the right way.

- - - - - -

[AngelStrummer]

The trouble is that practice can be defined and measured, i.e. number of hours spent in the woodshed, on stage, etc.

No quite so clearcut as far as talent is concerned.

My point? Not sure, just an observation, hopefully pertinent in some way to the discussion.

[zimbo]

I believe that talent comes naturally in many cases. Some people are simply born with it. You only need to look on YouTube and see 16 yr old kids playing amazing stuff with perfect timing. They may have practiced hard for a few years but when you've been playing many years and can't play that good you know that they were born with the gift. Not to say you can't develop what you have by hard work.

[stealyerface]

I think there is also some separation with regards to being a guitarist, and musically gifted. I have listened to guys who can tear up a fretboard like crazy, but have been more blown away buy the guys who may not have the scales chops, but by the ability to play THE perfect notes and fills at the perfect time.

Timing and musical sensibilities are as important to the mix to me as absolutely shredding the frets are to the angst-ridden teenage hopeful.

A perfect example for me was going to see Chris Duarte and watching his very impressive skills on the guitar. However, the guy that opened up for him was Chris Beard, who is the son of legendary bluesman Joe Beard.

Duarte obviously has the chops of a guy who attacked his guitar with zeal, and can absolutely tear it up. But after watching 45 minutes of perfectly timed, tasty, right-where-they-were-supposed-to-be ringing notes by the opening act, it made the thrash blues scales disguised as Countrified Rock seem boring and senseless.

So, could one argue that although Duarte might be a better "guitarist" based on his chops and his frenetic movement around the scales, would perfectly placed notes at a slower pace, and at just the right time and volume- might actually make Chris Beard a better "musician"?...

syf

[stealyerface]

"Every musician adds something to a song; some when they play, and some when they don't."

********************

I just read this in TxTeleMan's signature.

So completely andundeniably true.

syf

[hudpucker]

If we assume that everyone practices then what separates the great players from the average?


Talent.


You can practice all you want but if you lack talent that banging sound will be your head hitting your talent ceiling.

IMO.

[Agave_Blue]

Originally Posted by J-man

Too many variables to come to any real answer, IMO.

....

I'm sure you're right. None the less, there are some really good thoughtful answers here.

[J-man]

Originally Posted by Agave_Blue

I'm sure you're right. None the less, there are some really good thoughtful answers here.

Definitely, wasn't suggesting otherwise.

[GregB]

1. Tons and Tons of natural ability and talent, but NEVER practices or works at it.

I don't think this actually happens. Malcomb Gladwell has the 10,000 hour rule where he's found that people who are considered "Unnaturally talented" like Tiger Woods have also spent over 10,000 hours perfecting their skill. Practice seems to have a much larger effect than so called natural talent.

Think about that. That's a full time job for 5 years. If you practiced 40 hours a week for 5 years you'd easily be as good as your favorite musician. This also explains why there are so many great child musicians. They go to school, get their homework done, and then play music and practice for the rest of their spare time. After only 2 or 3 years of that they've already logged over 1000 hours.

I had a bad injury in July that's kept me from practicing, but before that injury I was logging my practice sessions and was trying to get 10 hours per week of practice. Even at that level that's 520 hours per year. If you're practicing efficiently you can gain a lot. I saw a serious change in my playing after about 3 months of 10 hours per week.

2. Tons and Tons of practice and hard work, but ZERO talent/ability.

Again, to have ZERO natural ability is so rare as to be essentially nonexistent. Tons of practice (proper practice, not just noodling) will help you gain a lot of ability. To have zero ability you'd almost have to be physically handicapped in a way that keeps you from performing the activity.

3. Some natural ability/talent and lots of hard work and practice.

This gives the greatest return.


4. Lots of natural ability/talent and some hard work and practice.

This gives far less return than one would imagine. And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's such a thing as natural ability without practice. Natural ability is probably better described as a passion for whatever they're practicing. You have to have that passion to allow yourself to practice for 3, 4 , 6 or more hours a day.

Chris Thile said that he practices a minimum of 3 hours a day. It's closer to 5 hours a day, even when he's on tour. He started when he was 7 or 8 so by 12 years old, when he produced his first CD, he's already practiced roughly 5000 hours. Now that he's in his 20's he's easily surpassed the 10,000 hour mark and it shows. He has the technical ability to play pretty much anything he can hear in his head.

As a music teacher for the past 5 years I think that, unfortunately, the majority of music students actually fall into a fifth category: In love with the IDEA of playing guitar, but without the passion or commitment to actually spend the time practicing.

[Controller]

I have pondered this a lot, given my self-imposed idea of limited natural ability. I used to think that you just had to make due with what you were born with, be it little or much. But over the course of my life I have seen desires and talents and ability that seem to spring forth from nothing into something amazing in people's lives.

I have come to believe that there are seasons in everyone's lives and that you can actually "grow into" more talent or ability as you grow older. Not raw physical skills, such as running fast, but creative skills like music, writing, art, teaching. And as some have said, the discipline to practice may come later in life.

I think we much too easily buy into the idea that if you weren't born with it, you can never have it. We give up too soon in life. My byline says "not dead yet." While I may never be a famous guitarist, I have decided I want to become as good as I can and that I am not going to limit that by some idea of how much talent I may or may not have.

I am enjoying practicing and playing more than I ever have and it is really like a completely new musical chapter in my life. Where did it come from? I don't know, but I am running with it.

[BigDaddyLH]

Forum members, if you had put in those mythical 10,000 hours of practice, could you have been a professional ballet dancer?

[stealyerface]

Hmmm... at 6'8" tall, and 255 pounds.... coupled with size 16 ballet shoes, and a custom made leotard....

I am guessing not.

syf