What is this and how do I use it?

[NealVossy]

I---------------------------------6--9-
I------------------------------8-------
I-----------------------6--9-----------
I----------------5--8------------------
I---------4--7-------------------------
I---3--6-------------------------------


It has a real "G7" type of sound to it, its jazzy and I'd like to use it in a Brent Mason-esque way to create ear-benders but I don't know where to start. Any legends wanna chime in on this one?

[boneyguy]

It's a G diminished 7th arppeggio.

[HOBBSTER01]

http://www.howtotuneaguitar.org/less...ad-guitar-tab/

[Tim Bowen]

Yeah, it's a cool sound. The linear approach in your tab falls neatly under the fingers, but as you start 'hearing' the sound more and more, you might find it advantageous to also have some more "across the board" fingerings at your disposal. One of many:


-----------------3-6-3-----------------
-------------2-5-------5---------------
-----------3-------------6-3-----------
-------2-5-------------------5---------
-----4-------------------------7-4-----
-3-6-------------------------------6-3-


Notice that the ascending and descending fingerings are different. There are lots of options.


Where to use it. Diminished sounds seem to be a pet topic here, so a search in this particular sub forum could yield lots of fun. Generally, it's useful to know that diminished sounds repeat in minor thirds, so if there's a pattern that you like, you can move it up the board in three fret increments, which also lends itself to the classic "damsel in distress tied to the train tracks" sound of early films.

Worth noting is that, as far as diminished chords being contained within charts is concerned, we're usually talking a half measure or a measure at most, so not much time to dig into it. In jazz and western swing for example, it's usually a passing chord that blows by in a heartbeat. One of the most common usages within a typical twelve bar blues is to substitute diminished up a half step from the IV7 chord in the sixth measure. Or within the fifth measure of an eight bar such as "Key to the Highway". So if there's a blues in G, the diminished application at hand would be to treat the successive measure of the IV7 as C#dim. instead of C7. Within improvisation, you can superimpose the sound even if the underlying harmony rests quite squarely on the C7 chord, although it should be noted that superimposition it most surely is.

Diminished chords sometimes "hang around" a bit longer within pop tunes. I'll list songs that I've mentioned in the past here: Elton John's "Amoreena", Jerry Garcia's and Robert Hunter's "Ship of Fools" (or Elvis Costello's excellent cover of that song), and several of George Harrison's tunes (he was a big fan).

Over something like a static dominant 7th chord vamp - it's almost like there's no such thing as a "wrong note" - as long as a certain amount of taste is included. I like mixing and matching sounds over such a vehicle: the usual "blues riffs", as blended with diminished, whole tone, lydian dominant, chromatic, m7b5 arps up a third or 6th from the root, and such, with a big heaping handful of well-intentioned BS for good measure.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

One of the most common usages within a typical twelve bar blues is to substitute diminished up a half step from the IV7 chord in the sixth measure. Or within the fifth measure of an eight bar such as "Key to the Highway". So if there's a blues in G, the diminished application at hand would be to treat the successive measure (measure 6) of the IV7 as C#dim instead of C7.

I'm just re-emphasizing Tims excellent example. There is a lot of 'diminished' talk here and this is probably the best place to start applying that sound.

Play your lick or part of it in bar 6.

[P Thought]

You guys knock me out. I'm trying these (vvverrrrry sssslllllooooowly.) For one thing, I actually understood the tabs for once. Thanks.

[NealVossy]

So in other words theres a way to utilize it in sort of a Mixolydian-esque way on the IV7?

[BigDaddyLH]

Going beyond diminished arpeggios, I like this diminished scale lick. The trick is not to keep going!

[kiwi_caster]

+1 on the Elvis Costello reference Tim!
One song that fits this scale in G is his "Shipbuilding"
I'm sure the trumpet solo is using this diminished scale to weave around.
Helps to get a swirling seemingly random effect.

I dig the way this repeats every three fret hop, an especially cool sounding way to travel to different positions.
Thanks I'm inspired

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by kiwi_caster

+1 on the Elvis Costello reference Tim!
One song that fits this scale in G is his "Shipbuilding"

What a great song! Maybe diminished ideas should be tied to songs about ships as often as they are to girls tied to railroad tracks?!

Fairly straight forward arpeggiated applications at 0:58 by the bassist and at 2:04 by the pianist here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LNB6M7yTBo

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by NealVossy

So in other words theres a way to utilize it in sort of a Mixolydian-esque way on the IV7?

Well, what Ken and I are talking about (and it has been mentioned here many times before as well) is the old tried-and-true approach of treating the sixth measure of a typical blues as diminished up a half step from the IV. This is a good place to start because it's a classic sound that's easily referenced in listening to jazz and blues records, and because most musicians will find themselves living within a twelve bar from time to time.

Try this for a blues in G:

On the 'and' of four in measure five, play a C note that slides into the C# on the downbeat of measure six. Subsequently treat the C# diminished arpeggio as triplet figures within measure six, and land squarely on the third of the I7 (B note) on the downbeat of measure seven.

As to what works over a dominant tonality. As always, several arguments could be made. A diminished chord of the same "root" note as the tonality in question will yield intervals of 1, b3, b5, and 6. Plenty bluesy enough. A diminished chord up a half step from the root will yield intervals of b9, 3, 5, and b7. Plenty bluesy enough.

So this starts to get into tritone b5 substitution, be it within a I to IV chord cadence, or as superimposed over a I chord. Listen to the intro of the Hendrix tune "Red House", the opening bits in the guitar solo on Lynyrd Skynyrd's cover of "Call Me The Breeze", Johnny Winter's "Mean Mistreater", and Robert Johnson's "Phonograph Blues", for typical useage within rock and blues, and examine the underlying harmony.

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

Or within the fifth measure of an eight bar such as "Key to the Highway".

Correction, this should read fourth measure. My apologies for any confusion.