love hate relationship with the guitar

[WilburBufferson]

I'm looking for some inspiration. I reckon some of you will have experienced this at some point. It's a rut that borders on pathology.

I've been playing guitar for 25 years or so, ever since I was 16. I've taken lessons over the years from good teachers, maintained practice routines from time to time, developed a decent sense of time and rhythm. I can play a phrygian scale, for example. I recently recorded a studio-quality album with my buddy that we are in the final stages of mixing down that has received good feedback from respected musician friends.

But I've also had a pretty busy career as a researcher, and am currently back at school to finish graduate studies. All of this has kept me busy over the years (i.e., limited practice time) as did a former dedication to playing golf (which I don't do so much of anymore).

When I examine my abilities, I feel frustrated that I haven't become much better for the amount of time I have been playing. I "know" all the things I should be doing (e.g., practice routines, scales, learning songs, etc.) but for whatever reason, when it comes to practicing, I just can't seem to maintain it for longer than a few days, or weeks. I want to be better, but I always find myself doing something else. Guitar has never been easy for me.

If I was ever in a jam situation with others, I would crash and burn because I don't even think I could play a song, though I know tons of *parts* of songs. It's like that. I feel like an "un-guitarist" though I want to be able to express the musical ideas I hear in my head.

So now that you've heard my sad story I guess my question is, how do I get to the next level? It's a mental barrier for sure. I need leverage and I refuse to give up (as others have referenced in other posts). I wish there was a book out there that said "just do this, and in 1,2,3 years you will be a well-rounded player".

I'm looking to the players who struggle, or who have struggled with the guitar to share their wisdom! Thanks for any pointers in advance.

[Bob Mc]

WB,
Your comment that you "don't think I could play a song" and that you knew 'parts' describes all but the last few years for me (I'm 49 and started at 14). My growth as a player can be attributed to one single night about 5 years ago when a friend played "Sleepwalk" for me. He showed it to me and I worked on it like never before. I was amazed a how much music there is in a few chords and a strong melody. That one moment changed everything; how I play blues, funk, everything became more musical.
Anyway, I guess my point is, you said it already; learn to play a single song - not necessarily the guitar part on a recording, a song. Practice that one song until it's music. The fact that you are unhappy with your skills just means you're very very close.
Don't give up!

[tooncaster]

Yep, I'm 40, been playing since 14, but only in the last few years have I taken guitar seriously enough to practice scales, learn new chords, find out how the notes all fit together, read some music theory, comprehend tablature, and learn songs. Songs ultimately teach you an awful lot, and put together all the theory and practice into concrete terms. So I agree with Bob.

As for jamming... Sometimes I go into a guitar store and get immediately intimidated by kids half my age ripping through arpeggios in their mad dash to be the next Yngwie. Then I sit down and do my 12 bar blues, my 1-4-5, my Stones riffs, a little T-Rex -- and it's like I live in a different universe from these guys. But I think the best thing to do is to develop your ear, slow down, and put the right note in the pocket. Loosen up. Once I ignore the blistering attack down the aisle, I can find the music I want to play.

Parenthetically, that's how I discovered a love for teles. They sounded so different and felt so much better than the monster metal machines buzzing around me. I have one coming via eBay soon (and can't wait!).

[jimmynumber9]

I was the exact same way. The feeling that I sucked was really the turning point for me. I loved to go into stores and play around on guitars (I love the technical aspects of guitars), but i would have nothing to play and someone somewhere else would always be playing something that sounded amazing. I would feel dumb and think that everyone was staring at me (the kid who can't even play guitar).

That was the turning point for me. After that I got together with my friend who is an amazing drummer and started learning as much as I could. I learned songs, solos and scales and all sorts of different chords. I also stopped learning from tabs and started youtubing lessons on the song. It's so much easier to learn a whole song when someone (even if it's through video is teaching you). I also got a new guitar (a partscaster I built) and haven't been able to put it down. I play much more now that I have a guitar I love.

[Stuco]

Originally Posted by tooncaster

As for jamming... Sometimes I go into a guitar store and get immediately intimidated by kids half my age ripping through arpeggios in their mad dash to be the next Yngwie. Then I sit down and do my 12 bar blues, my 1-4-5, my Stones riffs, a little T-Rex -- and it's like I live in a different universe from these guys. But I think the best thing to do is to develop your ear, slow down, and put the right note in the pocket. Loosen up. Once I ignore the blistering attack down the aisle, I can find the music I want to play.

(and can't wait!).

Haha, I totally know that feeling. Who listens to that crap anyway? lol In fact I went to GC today and had a similar experience. That place always kinda seems souless to me but that's another topic. I'm much more interested in tasteful playing than overly distorted "hot dogging". Go into a high end music store and you will likely hear people playing music that's more in tune to what you play.

As far as the OP, I'm in the same boat at 26. I need to step up my game or I will definately not progress at the rate I need to. When I first started playing, i progressed very rapidly and constantly played with other (better) musicians which really helped. I think that's what I need to do again, get on the scales and theory and make an effort to regularly play with better musicians, especially guitarists. The trick is to keep it fresh and stay on top of it.

[Geoff738]

Play with others/ join a band.

That does a whole bunch of things.

First, makes it harder to not commit if you've got a bunch of other folks depending on you to show up, know your parts etc.

Second, your focus will be on playing songs - making MUSIC - rather than just learning scales. It turns that theory into practice.

Third, develops listening skills. And rhythm skills as well. that just aren't going to develop in the same way doing it at home.

Fourth, it may introduce you to new people, music etc. depending. And if you end up in a band with good folks who are a little bit better than you but willing to help/ teach - if you're into the band and want to continue I'll bet you get a whole lot better pretty fast.

On the other hand, bands can be a real PITA. And, you have other, real priorities. But if you can find the right group of folks, give it a shot. (A lot of this goes for recording too, though - which you're already doing.)

I played a lot in my teens. I kinda put the guitar on the backburner through my twenties - although I still played a bit. For most of my thirties I hardly played. A few years back I decided to give it a go again - mid-life "crisis" or whatever. It's taken me four or five years, but i finally think I'm a better guitar player now than I was at eighteen. It's been a bunch of things. My getting back into playing was spurred on by having my old high school band reconvene. the first time around I seriously let the side down - everybody else still had most of their chops. I was horrible. But we decided to get together again - I decided I'd get a new guitar. Discovered this place, a couple or three Teles and a few more get togethers with the boys later I'm giving advice to others about how to improve?!

But listen. I decided to give guitar another shot after a long layoff and I just found out (again) that I really enjoyed it. I think I probably played as a teenager- at least partly - because I wanted to be a rockstar. Well, kinda realized by now that that's not gonna happen. And even if it did, there's no money in it now. So, I'm playing because I like it. It's just fun again - that's really got to be the key. Not that it won't be frustrating - there's always bumps along the path. I still can't fingerpick worth a damn, my slide playing's atrocious, I'm a mess rhythm-wise usually and while I consider myself a "lead" player - well, there's lots more to learn.

Listen, you can't learn it all. And, adult responsibilities mean you probably can't play six hours a day even if you want to. But I also think that the older you get, you've been exposed to so many more things, and so much more music, that I feel that can't help but make you a better guitar player in the end.

So figure out what it is about playing guitar that makes you happiest, and join a band and have fun. Life's too short not to!

Cheers,
Geoff

[warmingtone]

Finding a direction, or a new direction may be the start...

We all 'struggle' in one way or another, that means we are pushing our boundaries....

But, for me, I do jam with a bass player, I could "form a band" perhaps, but at a similar age and having been through years of that, it really isn't practical...

For some time I have made a point of being able to play something, anything...as simple or as complicated as you like...'cause there is always going to be someone who probably does not play guitar, maybe a spouse of your kids, who are going to be looking at you oddly, perhaps as you look at yourself, and for all the time and investment...and ask you to "play something" (unless you keep this thing like some "dirty little secret" and avoid the question being asked)...

This is a fundamental challenge...something I am addressing again with renewed vigor...regardless of what you might do, there is always a place for have learned some "party pieces" you can play convincingly to yourself or others and be rightfully proud of...

And, it doesn't matter what kind of genre or technique or style you have....if you are into the "blues" for instance...if someone asks you to play something, they will be more impressed if you can whip out a simple song, than if you can rip out a bunch of randome blues licks out of context. So, you know, there is plenty of material that you could adapt...something like SRV "Lenny" can work really well and be impressive though not that hard, with a pick style approach and on your own.

There are obviously a lot of pop songs, and for the more adventurous there are some truly amazing players out there that specialize in "solo" guitar arrangements. Check them out, even if that's not something you want to "do" it is certainly something to have up your "sleeve".

Maybe, choose a song you have always liked, or perhaps a tune your partner is fond of...and really work on it, learn the melody, learn the chords in every position, perhaps try a few alterations to things...as really try and imagine how you could "reply" to someone who comes by and says "oh, you play guitar...play me something"...I almost look at it like an obligation to be able to. I know a lot of people play to backing tracks and stuff...but that can be embarrassing in that kind of situation (oh, I can't play without my karaoke band!)....there are tones of easy enough little pieces about...more common in the acoustic world, but you know, you can play them too if you chose to.

What kind of music do you like, what are your aspirations....if one were to ask you right now...play me something...would you have something "impressive"? I don't get a chance to play or even visit music shops, but last time I did, I was testing out a guitar with an intent and did even buy, and played for an hour...the guy said that normally they don't let people do that, but since you play well and sound good, it's like free advertising, play as long as you like! They will not be saying that to the kid with the metal fetish or possibly a few stones riffs...but have a song, and you will win hearts!

[WilburBufferson]

Hi there -- thanks bob mc, tooncaster, jimmynumber9, stuco, geoff738 and warmingtone. This really helps. I am going to ruminate on this, and hope that others chime in... (please do!).

In the mean time, reading another thread about favorite albums of the 2000's, I came across the name Joe Bonamassa (never heard of him), and found this mini-documentary, which is helping me put things in perspective. (it covers his dedication, and has a lot of fun stuff to see for us guitar nerds -- even a brief cameo of Danny Gatton as the 'best unknown guitarist' - wow.)

[RatherBeFishing]

Maybe a change of direction is in order. Just play things you've created that are simple and you enjoy for a while rather than the songs of others. Maybe you'll develop your own style in the process. More fun- less frustrating

[cousinpaul]

It might be a good idea to put the scales and licks on hold for awhile and pursue a more song-oriented approach. If and when you start playing with others, most of what you'll be doing will be playing the changes and backing up a singer and/or other soloists. Learn to make other people sound good and you'll be in demand. Your lead playing will also improve once you know the songs and where the chord changes are going. I'd buy some fake books and have at it. Be honest. Start where you are and work your way up to the virtuoso stuff. You might also try lessons again with some new goals in mind. Hope this helps... CP

[ac15]

I agree with everyone who is recommending a more song-based approach. If you've been playing forever and can barely play a single song all the way through, something isn't right. I know people who are like this, and I suspect it's quite common.

The best musicians I know can play tons of tunes, by memory in several genres. They are song focused players. When they play leads, the leads are extremely musical because they think in the context of songs and "good parts" that fit the tune. They can play rings around the guys who have only played "their own stuff" because those guys typically only know what they know (I used to be like this). As mentioned in a previous post, this will develop a musicality that you'll never get by learning scales and practicing exercises. You'll learn lead, rhythm and harmony in the context of real music, and you'll actually be able to play useful stuff. You'll see how similar many chord changes and song structure are, and you'll learn to identify (by sound) what various chord changes sound like. If you want to analyze the scales, theory, etc. you can analyze it AFTER you've got the tunes or licks under your fingers. That's when the theory comes to life - play music first, analyze later. If you can't play a tune, you've really got nothing.

[emu!]

IMO, to get over the next hump, you need to play with other musicians. Preferably live at gigs. It's like night and day...practicing vs playing in a band. No amount of theory, teachers, or practicing is going to get you to a level of being able to play a song all the way through as you mentioned. The pressure of the live situation is what makes you good.

[Larry F]

I wish I had more time to play. Right now, I can do 2-3 hours. At other times of the year, 1 hour. My method is the same now as it was when I was 20. First, I play with a blues trio once or twice a week. I get a chance to try out lots of things. As I play, I take note of the things that are working better and the things that still need improvement. When I get home, I work out a practice plan to address those things. The significance of this is that it is self-contained and easy to judge the progress of. Sometimes I'll arbitrarily set a goal of playing certain patterns or whatever x number of times in such-and-such keys and on such-and-such strings. This helps me focus on manageable aspects of my musical abilities. The final exam, so to speak, is when I play with the band. Then I re-evaluate and take it from there.

[Warren Pederson]

Learn songs on the guitar. Learn to sing those songs along with the guitar.
-yer welcome

[Tonealicious]

To the OP, I'm struggling too, in fact I was going to start this very thread.

I recorded myself playing to a stones backing, and when I watch it back I think, lord I'm not really playing music, i'm just running up and down some patterns. I feel there is no melody, no theme and no real dynamics.





Its not easy to do this, but I would really appreciate some feedback, good or bad, and advice on moving toward a more musical style.

Edit: Or I'll just take the above advice

[Tonealicious]

When I say Melodic and Musical, THIS is what I'm talkin about!

[max_twang]

Hello Wilbur -- I don't know if this qualifies as "wisdom" but from my experience, and as already stated by other posters, I believe that you should play with other musicians. Do this consistently and I think you will be surprised at how much you improve.

My situation is similar to yours -- I've spent a lot of time in grad school and I now have a busy professional life. But guitar is what I love best.

I've played since I was 12. I've been in a bunch of bands, but I never really had the opportunity to "stretch my wings" as a guitarist. About two years ago, I started playing regularly with some friends. Not a great band, but not bad either. We even play a fair amount of material I'm not very fond of. However, the weekly live practice with my friends has improved my playing immeasurably. I'm still far from a spectacular lead guitarist, but stepping into that role for the first time has really allowed me to grow.

In your case, I think your sense of frustration would be lessened if you were able to put to use the skills you acquired through all of your practicing. Playing Phyrgian scales all be yourself doesn't sound like a lot of fun. But playing a hot lick that you didn't know you had in you and makes your drummer shout 'yeah' is a really a trip! And a live audience can be even better.

I'd also recommend trying to push your personal envelope a bit. Listen to different music. Take note of the playing of guitarists whose styles you haven't yet learned. Try playing different styles of music. Can you do Chicken Pickin'? Can you do a decent Keith Richards? Jimmy Bryant? Only a few examples here, but the point is there is so much great music in the world that could inspire you! Find some of it, enjoy it and play it!

I'd also add that this should be an enjoyable thing for you, and in reading your post, I don't get the impression that you love to play. I may be completely wrong here, but why do you play? What do you get out of it?

Don't worry about crashing & burning when playing with others. If you have great chops from all of the practicing you've done you'll probably have no problems. But even if you have a hard time at first, don't be discouraged. That's usually the case when trying anything new. Try to play with an assortment of different folks and see if you can do a 1-2 night per week get together in a situation that feels good. It will do your musical soul good.

Phil

ps Sorry, I couldn't resist the Mr. Ed reference :)

[warmingtone]

Hmmm....well, not a lot of comment on this T-licious

These are two different approaches and I appreciate you having the cahones to put yourself on the tube for us.

So...that sounds a lot to me like the tune "the sky is crying"...SRV and clapton have both played this extensively of course. As a kid, I'd put on the EC is here record and play along to the whole side of this solo over and again (we didn't have backing tracks and instructional stuff in those days) and by doing this, you get a sense of phrasing and such.

The track you cite though, is pretty standard "blues fare" of that ilk...don't get me wrong, it's good, so is yours in a more boogie kind of approach...but it is mostly learned licks and the phrasing here is very much short statements of similar length and placement, similar bent notes, etc.

...

So, listening, really listening is key. Maybe you need to seek out some artists that really capture your imagination, some of this has hints of Roy Buchannan that was also a big influence on me, but perhaps not quite as inventive as Roy on a good day!

ok...so when I say listening, get a paper and pencil...listen to a solo or whatever, preferably a whole song, that you really admire.

Go through the song or solo and write down the bits you particularly like in a kind of time line. Note the phrases, how they fall within the bars and with the changes...do they outline the harmony perhaps (end on a significant note say), are there any particular gestures or articulations you like (bends or double stops or long sustained notes, or flurries of activity)...especially note where a phrase might 'echo' another (very common in blues, remember the blues form...sing a line, repeat a line (perhaps with more emphasis and over the IV chord), answer and resolve these first statements.

Can you hear that in the kind of example you have presented of where you want to go...I can...

...

Sometimes I might even use some made up lyrics or sentiments, or those of the song to inspire stuff. But in this style it does tend to be something like...

I really love you baby, especially all the times that were apart

ok...typical blues sentiment, got to say it again, did the listener really appreciate what you just said/played on the guitar...perhaps not...

so the next phrase is going to be the same, but perhaps with more emphasis...

Hey baby, yeah you baby! I really, really, really love you baby, and you know it seems to be, it's kind of strange, but...I seem to love you even, even more, yeah, even more, when we are apart...do you understand me now baby?

Ok...same thing, try and sing those two lines in a bluesy declamatory kind of way...or just say those words, as if you were serious...no laughing at the back!!!

Have a look, see how all these words are crowded in there, pay special attention to the commas and note the phrases "love you baby" and "even more when we're apart"...you'd be wanting that line to particularly echo each other.

I really did go "over the top" there, but this can help in lots of ways, and as guitar players, we are not having to actually say it...so that's a relief. However, you can see this kind of thing in the old Led Zep 'since I've been loving you" where Plant and co have no problem going nuts with this kind of thing....

Ok...so now you have called out, you have said your bit...and, just to be absolutely clear...you have said it again, as emphatically as you can...the esults likely to be a longer number of phrases, interesting breaks and rhytmic things, maybe some dynamics, certainly in this case more notes, perhaps a lot of bends or triplets...always good if you are thinking re-al-ly, re-al-ly, re-al-ly...etc

but to be effective, and to resolve the tension of this repetition and bombastic CALL, you are going to have to 'resolve' it with a clever RESPONSE...

Depending on your personality or humor or mood at the time, it could be any number of things...I'm making this up as I type you understand...however...you might be thinking something like...

CALL
I really love you baby, especially all the times that were apart
Repeat, but more so...

RESPONSE

A playful/silly response come to mind...

so, even though you annoy me baby, watch all kinds of weird movies and complain about me playing guitar...I don't mind little darling, I don't really mind, 'cause I know that when you are gone, it rips a hole right through my heart...

ok...so, perhaps you might tender it up a bit here, play with the dynamics, ease things back after all that fussing earlier...that's a resolution...

You might get a bit more "upset" perhaps...

That's why, I drink and smoke and drive too fast, you know when you leave me too long, toooo looong, like that baby, I'm like a loose cannon...you know I'm gonna blast, gonna blast...Blast!!!

Or even more 'wicked' depending on how you might be feeling or trying to express...like something like...

That's why why I go creeping baby, that's why I go creeping baby, that's why I go creeping baby...chasing tail like I got no class...or a word that rhymes with class...whew...you know what I's saying there baby

(yeah, in typical blues style, it's all her fault right, hahaha). Now imagine how you might "play" this and covey that...perhaps take the tone right down, palm mute all that creeping, end with a similar statement to the "call" phrases (that we're apart), add in a bit of a slide, and a little after thought to get you into the next chorus.

These kinds of things are "Parsody" and can be a really useful exercise...you can really practice this literally like this...eventually, you will pick up a bunch of ways of "saying things" without having to think of such scenarios, the guitar can speak on it's own.

For longer solos, you might think of a story that you can take the listener on...in the blues, there is a "form" that you should adhere to, at least so that you can break out of it to make a point...play right through the turnaround and into the next part of the story for instance to keep up momentum, I haven't finished yet...that kind of thing....

Now, there are all kinds of technical ways to do this with note choices as well...like avoiding the tonic so it doesn't feel like you are getting home before your story is through.

...

Not sure if that helps any, it might sound "silly" but it can work wonders.

It of course falls in with the 'singing' lines and phrasing things idea which is important, but adds also the "intent"...what exactly are you trying to say?

In order to tell an interesting 'story' you need to develop all manner or ways of expressing things...dynamics, phrasing, repetition, licks taken from others in the genre that imply certain things. It isn't literal of course, but taking it literally is a good way of putting intent into things and playing "from the heart"...

...

There has been lots written here and elsewhere about such things as target notes and such. Melodic theory is curiously absent from a lot of discussions, but it is an imporatnt thing, working this way may give you an intuitive sense enough for this style without having to get "technical" about it or having to learn new scales and things to get out of a rut.

Think about the way things that you like have a melodic contour...it's like the way an accent in speech works...different cadences to peoples voices and speech patterns. We are all pretty attuned to these things...so if you are "angry" you might be louder, higher in pitch, faster in speech, maybe not letting others speak by running a sentence like this way to long so as to get your point across. Then there are tender moments, less activity, caressing things...or perhaps just one note or little phrase will say all that's required. This is kind of how this kind of blues soloing "works"...there is often little in the way of remarkable melody to work off in this kind of blues tune or a backing track.

These things can be practiced and the rewards come to you in your own space...if or when you play with others, you will have a sense of "intent" and things to say, and a repertoire of techniques to express those things.

... but yes, go back and listen, especially find something that inspires you or that you'd like to be able to do...but don't just let it wash over you, get in deep, not into the notes, but what that music is saying to you, how is it saying that...ask, how would i say that, do I need to learn those exact words, or is it the 'accent' that I need to work on, the phrasing or whatever...

Some stuff, perhaps like the stones-y boogie things, are "stompers" and that can be a different "intent"...equally valid...play of the rhythm...I'm stomping down the street, look at me stomping, I'm gonna stomp on you like they stomped on me, stompity stomp stomp...etc... . In a rock blues, say the Who's 'wont get fooled again'...the guitar answers with a powerful punch to the face...sometimes you don't need to be wordy...it can be even more effective say, if you hold back, hold back...then explode...there's a lot of nothing, then an unexpected big gesture...not technically difficult, just a matter of "intent"...

Of course, you have to be careful what you wish for. Many find that they feel stuck, soon after, or just before they got to where they had hoped to be going...maybe you wanted to be a 'stomper' and now you feel like being more 'emotive' and melodic in the blues form, then perhaps you might find that that is a bit repetitive and cliched, maybe add some soul or jazz or folk elements in there...see how this is exactly what artists of longevity have typically done as well.

[robotguitar]

Get a sequencer. try out some progressions. A bit of theory maybe. Or maybe guitar is not for you. I make about 2 hundred a week playing for money and hopefully it will get better. I'll answer anything you got if I can but your might be better than me.

[Tonealicious]

Wow. I've never heard anyone talk about guitar playing like that before Warming, very kind of you to put down those ideas for us. I'd never come across parsody before - it seems like a new and interesting way to look at the language of melody and phrasing with our everyday language and speech.

I'm going to take your ideas and put them to work with some of my favourite songs and solos and see how I go.

Originally Posted by warmingtone

Hmmm....well, not a lot of comment on this T-licious

These are two different approaches and I appreciate you having the cahones to put yourself on the tube for us.

So...that sounds a lot to me like the tune "the sky is crying"...SRV and clapton have both played this extensively of course. As a kid, I'd put on the EC is here record and play along to the whole side of this solo over and again (we didn't have backing tracks and instructional stuff in those days) and by doing this, you get a sense of phrasing and such.

The track you cite though, is pretty standard "blues fare" of that ilk...don't get me wrong, it's good, so is yours in a more boogie kind of approach...but it is mostly learned licks and the phrasing here is very much short statements of similar length and placement, similar bent notes, etc.

...