intelligently using/practicing pentatonic boxes

[boo radley]

Aaagh. Dabbled in guitar off and on, in my 45 years, and now I'm back to being intrigued with the instrument again.

Classic (bad) white, yuppie guitar player, struggling with the electric blues. Some of the resources I've worked with in the past are "Blues You Can Use", and have started "More Blues You Can Use," along with some Keith Wyatt tapes....

I guess l have two immediate goals 1) Really harden some basics (rhythm, playing in time, chord-voicings, and some basic leads) so I can go to a jam, or find others to play with. I have almost zero experience in this area. 2) In the context of the first goal, be able to both practice and combine chord voicings *and* melodic patterns, so I'm both learning *and* playing something at home that sounds musically complete. There are countless examples, but one that springs immediately to mind is the opening few bars to 'Wind Cries Mary' (Hendrix).

Anyway. To make a long story longer:

I've been practicing the usual 5 pentatonic box shapes, mostly across the next, but also up and down the neck, which has really opened up some nice licks. But I'm wondering how effective this is, as a use of my time, in context of working with chords as well.

The problem is, I might be practicing and it sound like: "chord, chord, chord," as I strum, say, dominant 7 chords at the 5th fret, then "lick, lick lick" as I screw around in the A-major pentatonic box at the 5th fret. Sounds like really bad Chuck Berry. It's WORSE, if I start trying to jump out to a 'box' that's way up or down the neck: that really calls attention to the division between the chord tones and the single note tones, even if I'm in the technically 'correct' scale.

This is getting to be a confusing question. I guess what I'm wondering - how to best practice and learn -- in blues -- merging rhythm and harmony with short lead lines. Thx!

[Larry F]

One of the most overlooked resources in minor pentatonic playing is the leap. Instead of playing up up up or down down down from one note to the next, try skipping over a note (making it a leap). In A minor pentatonic, for example, try: C A E D E. The leap is from A down to A, skipping over G. SRV and Albert King do this tons, which allows them to play primarily in the minor pent but with character.

[brokenjoe]

Switching back and fourth between rhythm and lead is a learned skill, with it's very own techniques. Sometimes, I'll palm mute the rhythm, and then 'open it up' when i switch to lead lines. Sometimes I pick a bit harder for leads, and sometimes I'll just reach for the volume knob.

Different scenarios call for different techniques.

In so far as soloing goes, I'll say this: work on your technique. ANYBODY can learn a pentatonic box in an hour or so. It's what you do with it that matters.

Vibrato, bending to pitch, phrasing, note selection, etc, are really what it's about in blues guitar playing.

A great example of this is the intro to 'All Along the Watchtower' by Jimi Hendrix. Simple, tasty, straight ahead pentatonic, but utterly amazing!

[ottocat]

I would suggest learn a couple Robert Johnson tunes
Like "When you got a Good Friend"
Sing the tune and play fills
Who cares if it don't sound good when you're by yourself
That will help your rythem and voice and help your lead
Play along with the record,I'm using RJ because many consider him to be the "father" of blues,or the most 'important blueser
I'd say Charlie Patton his mentor but, his vocal is in Mississipean
Which might be hard to understand for a straight white guy
Sing the pitches when you play lead
Been singing with my solos awhile,it's helped me,now I do it with a mic
People seem to enjoy it,not trying to impress it just comes out of me like that
The voice becomes part of the tune,just an extension of the guitar

[boo radley]

LarryF -- good info; I *think* I understand what you're saying. For example in Am Pentatonic at the 5th, I might descend right from the E (5th fret B string) to the C on the adjacent string, instead of hitting the D on the 7th fret first, as I'd do normally?

But that aside, I'm not asking my question clearly. Suppose, sticking with the key of A, you played I7 IV7 V7 in 3 general areas of neck. (Sorry my theory and terminology is poor). Say in open position, around the 5th fret, and the 9th fret.

So I know the chords for the A D and E in those positions, and maybe a 9th or alternative 7th voicing I can substitute. But I don't want to just play the chords -- how do you go about extending fill notes, and tasteful riffs to accompany the progression? Do you look immediately for the minor pentatonic 'box' that would roughly cover that area of the neck? Or are there other tricks? Playing just two notes out of the chord?

I'm not talking so much about a riff-driven blues, like "Born Under a Bad Sign" or "Rock Me Baby" where it's almost entirely part of a pattern, but...something more. Robben Ford does this incredibly (IMO). He'll take a progression and play it all over the neck in fancy chord voicings but with tons of short single note fills and riffs. And I know jazz guys take this to a whole other level.

[Tonemonkey]

Originally Posted by ottocat

I'd say Charlie Patton his mentor but, his vocal is in Mississipean
Which might be hard to understand for a straight white guy

What abouy a white guy who's not straight?

[Michael T]

I think I understand what you're getting at.....

I think that part of what may be missing for you is linking the scale to the chord. In other words, if you're moving to the IV7 chord (just an example) and want to follow the chord with a little fill then you need to know the scale pattern (or even the arpeggio) where that chord voicing lies on the neck so you can choose the right notes.

Here's a little exercise for you. Choose a triad (perhaps C major) and play the triads in the three inversions up the neck (start by sticking to the top 3 strings). Next, figure out how that triad fits into the C major or C major pentatonic scale in that position.....you can do the same for minor triads/scales. If you are comfortable doing this then it will be a lot easier grab the right notes for fills.

Hope this helps.

[birv2]

Here's something to try -- get a standard 12-bar backing track in a medium tempo. Play along with it using only 4 notes.

So if you're playing in A -- G A C D. Work on your timing, and see how many different cool-sounding combinations you can get out of those 4 notes.

I too want to play all over the neck like Robben Ford. And maybe sometime in the next century I will. But for now I'm trying to make a lot out of a little.

Bob

[Vihar]

What I suggest is to try and stop hard practicing for a while, because in my experience hard, cold practice will hardly translate into fluid, soulful playing, at least for certain people, and you might be one of them, judging by your process. Try to play simple, single melody lines first. The melodies of tunes you like, the way you would hum them to yourself, only try to recreate that with the guitar now. Search for the notes patiently on the fingerboard like when you started to learn typewriting, then play them one after the other.
It's useful if you are able to draw figures with a few simple lines before you try and copy the whole Mona Lisa.

[warmingtone]

I guess l have two immediate goals

1) Really harden some basics (rhythm, playing in time, chord-voicings, and some basic leads) so I can go to a jam, or find others to play with. I have almost zero experience in this area.

2) In the context of the first goal, be able to both practice and combine chord voicings *and* melodic patterns, so I'm both learning *and* playing something at home that sounds musically complete. There are countless examples, but one that springs immediately to mind is the opening few bars to 'Wind Cries Mary' (Hendrix).

Hi Boo...

I would consider extending your listening and seeking out a few transcriptions or working out how the kind of thing you like works.

You seem to be hinting towards a rhythm and fill style that is often attributed to Curtis Mayfield but mainly associated with Hendrix. Many players have hints of this stuff also including of course SRV and Vai etc and it is worth checking out how this works. It also appears in country styles and there are similar kinds of things in a lot of soul players like croppers sliding sixths that outline chords with fills and such. It is a kind of hybrid lead and rhythm effect I suppose...

This 'style' involves a fair few hammer-on to chord tones...many are characteristic and can be heard in hendrix stuff like little wing, castles, etc.

So...what you may want to do is to try and associate pentatonic or major and minor scales and modes etc to chords. Primarily though they are pentatonic moves.

Wind crys mary, if you consider it in E (hendrix tuned to Eb remember), sounds pretty "bluesy" but is primarily major in character...

you might then seek to work out fills associated with the chord/s and practice "boxes" and such that weave around a chord. These may not necessarily fit normal ideas of "boxes" and I applaud you working not only across the strings in box formations but along the strings in a more linear style...



--(7)-----------------------------------------------9--12-------------------------------
---9---------------------------------9--(10)--12------------------------------------------
---9-------------------------9--11----------------------------------------------------
---9-----------------9--11------------------------------------------------------------
---7-----7-(9)-11----------------------------------------------------------------------
---0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

E chord...e major pentatonic*/major working from the "A shape" barre chord
* I added the 2nd/9 and 4th tones from the major scale in brackets.

-----7~~~-----------------------------------------------12s---9p8p7------------------------
-----7-h-9---------------9~~~~------9-h-10-p-9----12s---9p8p7-----------9---s12~~
---------------9~~~----11-p-9--------9~~~~~----------------------9--------9----s13~~
---------------9-h-11-------------11----------------------------------------9h11--11---------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above is a bit of improv using this technique "style", see if you can see how these notes relate to the chord form, mainly working "in front of" the A shaped chord (i suppose G in the caged system) and touches of the E shape at the 12th fret in the end. Once you get a feel for these things, you will be able to move seemlessly between 'positions' with slides and hammer moves that outline the basic chord shapes.

Now, if you get the idea down over a few chord "shapes" you can extend the ideas over sequences of chords. So, again in Wind crys mary sequence of E-B-A an improv in that style might include moves such as these...

--7~~-----------------------5~~-5~~~~------------------------------------
--7h9--7~~7~~--7~-----5h7--5~~~--5~~5~~-----------------------------------
---------6h8-6------6~--------------6~~-4h6-4~~------4~~~-----------------------
--------------------9-------------------------------------7----4-h-6-------------------
----------------------------0~~~~------------------------------------------------------
--7(thumb)------------------------------------------------0~~~-----------------------

B major.....................A major...............................E major.....

the B and A major chords are working off of the E shaped barre forms on the 7th and fifth fret...the e chord is kind of working out of the C shaped chord if that makes sense.

You are basically hammering on or pulling off from or to chord tones to create fills and holding partial two note chords and suspensions (like sus 4s and sixths) keeping the chord shape in mind.

In many ways you are playing in an almost 'jazz like' mind set thinking of each chord individually, but to do it well, you also have to keep a sense of "voice leading" as well.

You might be able to see that in that last line of mine, the "lower voice" moves down the d string (in a linear kind of way) from the notes B (9th fret), A (7th fret) to hammer on to the G# (4 to 6 fret). The result should sound not like a bunch of disconnected fills per chord, but some kind of melodic sense through the sequence of chords.

There are a lot of notes that are part of the chord that are held over (~~) with the fills...this gives that characteristic lead/rhythm effect that fills out the sound and makes it sound more rhythm like than 'lead' or hybrid fills, rather than heres a chord, here is a fill.

It gets easier as you get more 'moves' in your vocabulary, can picture the chord forms and the notes in a key that effectively hammer on to chord tones and the like.

It is a beautiful style in itself...but you can take it even further by learning some harmonized scales along the neck, so thirds (you can see that in the last notes of the first example in my playing) and sixths and 4ths (you can see that also in the first example on the e and b strings) 4ths are something I like myself and you can see you can even include little chromatic moves such as the 9-8-7 pull off thing pretty easily to add colour without having to learn fancy scales and such.

These things can sound bluesy or kind of country...notice that it is the "feel" and "articulation" that hendrix or the soul guys put on things rather than it being "major pentatonic" that creates the bluesy sound, not the choice of 'notes'. It is a common misconception that major pentatonic sounds "country" and minor "bluesy" but songs like Wind Crys mary and the Soul stuff shows that this is not correct really and there are lots of shades in between.

If you can get hold of some transcriptions you will be able to get some more moves that way and soon be able to make your own if you keep the chords in mind. The more chord shapes and fragments you know, the easier and better things will sound...

I hope that some of this makes sense as I think this is kind of the direction you are thinking of, certainly a 'style' or technique I use a lot and can change the way you 'think'. For instance, once you start to see chord forms, chord tones and the appropiate notes around them, you will be seeing them even with single line solos, be looking for voice leading and melodic line and outlining the harmony...and this all makes for great solos and avoids meandering about with notes from a simple "box".

[boo radley]

Warmingtone and MichaelT -- yes, that is exactly what I'm after. Must digest for a bit. Thx to all of y'all, too -- great advice.

[jjkrause84]

Blues is a feeling. Digest the "facts" (scales, licks, etc.) and then defecate feeling.

One cool practice thing I like to do it take a note, or a bend or a small lick and try to play it as many different ways as I can by just altering my pick attack and note lengths (holding a bend longer/shorter, etc.). You realize JUST how much nuance there can be in one note or two notes, much less FIVE!

[Tim Bowen]

My post will be oversimplified at best.

Originally Posted by boo radley

I've been practicing the usual 5 pentatonic box shapes, mostly across the next, but also up and down the neck, which has really opened up some nice licks. But I'm wondering how effective this is, as a use of my time, in context of working with chords as well.

That's cool, now try something different. Within the same position on the neck *ascend* the MINOR pentatonic, and when you hit the last available note, *descend* the MAJOR pentatonic. In other words, play the minor and major penta scales in the same position of the neck. Move to the next position, lather, rinse, and repeat. Go all the way up the neck until you're out of frets, and then come back down until you arrive at your original starting point.

Then do the opposite - ascend major, descend minor. Key point is to do this in the same position on the neck, for each of the five basic areas.

Don't worry about assimilating anything right away. Do the mechanics and the memorization for a couple of months and just file it away. Over time - IF you do the work - and IF you always do some improvising (just play to the radio or CD's; play along with songs that you don't 'know') after you "run scales" - the brain, ears, and fingers will start to make some connections that will surely unlock some doors (especially as you start tossing some greasy licks in, as you get more familiar), I can almost guarantee it. But you have to be patient and you have to stay after it fairly hardcore. It's an oversimplified statement on my part at best, but one of the best ways to "break out of the box" is this simple major/minor pentatonic exercise that, over time, WILL make valuable connections for you.

As to the above, it's intrinsically important to firmly understand the concept of "relative minor", which is the 6th scale degree of any major scale. If you know a lick in G, try it over Em. Conversely, if you know a lick in Am, try it over C. Over time, your ear will tell you to change this and that, but for now, just make the connection. Know the relative minor of any key you're playing in.

There's nothing wrong with a little instant gratification now and then. Do a search for "pentatonic melodic sequences", and investigate that. Melodic sequences can get the fingers moving in unfamiliar ways. Don't worry if the fingers are quicker than the brain or ears at first, just enjoy the different ways in which the notes are organized, and the fact that the fingers are moving a little differently.

The problem is, I might be practicing and it sound like: "chord, chord, chord," as I strum, say, dominant 7 chords at the 5th fret, then "lick, lick lick" as I screw around in the A-major pentatonic box at the 5th fret. Sounds like really bad Chuck Berry. It's WORSE, if I start trying to jump out to a 'box' that's way up or down the neck: that really calls attention to the division between the chord tones and the single note tones, even if I'm in the technically 'correct' scale.

Oversimplified on my part yet again, but you need to understand the mixolydian scale, and you need to be able to hear and find the 3rd and b7 for each chord. You need to know about tritones and b5 substitution. If this is Greek to you, I'll reiterate something that is said at this forum on a daily basis - find a qualified music educator to help you navigate and understand practical harmony and theory for your applications.

This is getting to be a confusing question. I guess what I'm wondering - how to best practice and learn -- in blues -- merging rhythm and harmony with short lead lines. Thx!

Yeah, that.

For starters, learn the CAGED system. The system has its share of naysayers. If you've designs on becoming the next Scofield, Holdsworth, or Scott Henderson, then yeah, there's more to think about. For what you're talking about here, I highly recommend it. Do it, trust me. Do you have certain embellishments (hammers, pulls, etc.) that you do with open position garden variety major and minor chords? Yes? Learn what the intervals are (and HEAR them) that you're playing within the basic shapes, first and foremost. Beyond that, know how to take those shapes to other keys (you gotta learn the notes on the board... sorry), and work really hard at getting the barred and chord fragment stuff to "ring" like they do in open position, sans the benefit of open strings.

As to the Hendrix/Mayfield thing. Warmingtone and MichaelT offer excellent advice. Yes, you should learn inversions and diatonic thirds and sixths in a linear fashion (up the board), as well as across the board. Listen to the stuff that Keith Richards and Mick Taylor played on "Honky Tonk Women" by the Rolling Stones. I know that I sound like a stuck record here, but figure out (or have someone help you figure out) how to play on guitar the "slip note" piano stylings that Floyd Cramer played on his 1960 hit, "Last Date", and analyze each move chord-for-chord. It doesn't matter if one hates country music, the education within that little tune is immense. In fact, I'd recommend this tune as a prerequisite supplement to tunes like "Wind Cries Mary", "Little Wing", and such.

[Budda]

Great Thread! I love all the cool Tips everyone has shared.

Here's something I find very useful for helping to nail the Chord Tones a little more closely, without working too hard.

-----------------------------0-3/4-0-3/4-0------------------------------|-------
------------------------0-3-----------------3-0--------------------------|-------
-----------------0h1-2--------------------------2-0h1------------------|-------
------------0-2---------------------------------------2-0----------------|-------
--------0-2------------------------------------------------2-0-----------|-------
-0-3/4---------------------------------------------------------3/4-0----|-------
E minor Pentatonic, with added Major 3rd. 


-------0------2-----0---------------|-------------3---------|--0--------|-0----------|--------
-------0------2-----0---------------|-------3-5----3h4------|----1/2----|------------|--------
-------0h1----2-----0h1-------------|-2/4----------------4--|--------2--|---0h1------|--------
---2-----------------------2--------|-----------------------|-----------|--------2---|--------
------------------------------------|-----------------------|-----------|------------|--------
-------------------------------00---|-----------------------|-----------|------------|--------
E Blues Rhythm Lick B7 A7 E7 


--------------7---7-----------------------------------------------------------
--------------8b--8b----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classic "Train-Whistle" lick, in E. Bend the G note slowly, and 2/3 way to the G# note.

Notice how it moves from the Minor 3rd. UP to the Major 3rd., even when descending the Scale? This helps with the more common Moves you'll hear from players.

And the Rhythm Licks are seen/heard everywhere. From "Texas Flood", to "Working Man's Blues" to "Mystery Train" to "Bright Lights, Big City", etc.



Also, I would recommend putting everything into Context. Playing some more Tunes, and learning how the "Masters" have navigated the same Changes.

There's a great DVD from Hal Leonard and Greg Koch. It's called "BLUES". It basically shows you a whole Set List worth of Tunes. Learn all the Tunes on that DVD, and you'll be ready to hit those Jam Sessions! Plus, you'll get to examine, and more importantly, to absorb, what many of the standard bearers have done.

Hope this helps.

[boo radley]

Great stuff -- thx.

I think I'm going off in too many directions at the moment. Some of the triad work and major scales doesn't sound a bit bluesy (though great, and I need a lot of work in this area).

But let me get back to to the pentatonic major/minor thing. Tim, that seems like a great drill. But I'm trying it, and it sounds very dissonant to my ear. It's supposed to?

Let me make sure I understand: so at the 5th fret for example, I'd play the old faithful A-minor pentatonic pattern, ending at the C on the 1st string (ascending). Then I'd come down in A-major pentatonic, which I think -- in that position -- would be the 7 5, 7 5, 6 4, 7 4, 7 4, 7 5 pattern?

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by boo radley

But let me get back to to the pentatonic major/minor thing. Tim, that seems like a great drill. But I'm trying it, and it sounds very dissonant to my ear. It's supposed to?

Let me make sure I understand: so at the 5th fret for example, I'd play the old faithful A-minor pentatonic pattern, ending at the C on the 1st string (ascending). Then I'd come down in A-major pentatonic, which I think -- in that position -- would be the 7 5, 7 5, 6 4, 7 4, 7 4, 7 5 pattern?

Yep, that's it's exactly it. What I didn't mention previously is that this is simply a starting point; the design is to firstly get the fingers familiar with the minor and major penta scales within the same position (and for the eyes to see it, and for the ears to hear it).

Yes, absolutely, in of itself, it sounds like a major penta followed my a minor penta (or vice-versa)! "Square", dissonant, whatever you want to call it. It's a drill.

The really cool stuff (and I guess I could call this "step #2") starts to happen when the major and minor sounds are interspersed and combined within phrases as the player hears them (not the strict and military ascending and descending that I mentioned, which is simply a jumping off point that I use for teaching). Within blues and other types of music, good players take lots of liberties with major and minor thirds, and will often play b7's over simple chords that are major triads, or "power chords" (root-fifth only). All the intervals and extensions are important, but I'd suggest getting intimately familiar with thirds and sevenths for starters. When the "major/minor" connection starts to happen, you're starting to see and play mixolydian anyway, so I'd suggest augmenting your study and practice regimen with some mixolydian stuff. To take it a step further as to nailing chord tones over typical chord changes, you need to start seeing and hearing tritones, which are basically double stops that contain a major third and a flat seven. You should start by seeing them in relation to the I, IV, and V chords, everywhere that they occur on the board. For instance, a tritone that yields b7 and 3 over a I chord can be moved down a half step for the IV chord, and the intervals are reversed - 3 and b7.

Chew on that for a while, and I'll be happy to further expound when I get back in town from gigs. Or maybe somebody else here will further elaborate in the meantime.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

Blues is a feeling. Digest the "facts" (scales, licks, etc.) and then defecate feeling.

I'm puzzled. What is the OP supposed to do with these statements?

[boo radley]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I'm puzzled. What is the OP supposed to do with these statements?

No wonder my wife is hating my blues.