How do you NOT lose your place in a progression while improvising?

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by OceanBoy

It's not so much the chord changes that are important, it's the key that you're playing in that is crucial.


I don't know a great lead player who is not a great rythym player first.

i completely disagree with the first part of your statement and totally agree with the second!

chord changes are crucial. when the chord changes, you should change. it doesn't mean you can't even be playing the same scale, but the notes you use should reflect the change. in this song, you MUST change with the change!!!! I wanna hear that C chord acknowledged!

but yes, rhythm is most important. again, here's where the chord changes come in--know those chords, and know all the possible places of playing them. I see a lot of people say "i'm a good rhythm player" and for them, that means they can keep time on three chords in one position...that ain't even the half of it! becoming a true, inventive rhythm player will help your lead playing tenfold.

[OceanBoy]

Originally Posted by jazztele

i completely disagree with the first part of your statement and totally agree with the second!

chord changes are crucial. when the chord changes, you should change. it doesn't mean you can't even be playing the same scale, but the notes you use should reflect the change. in this song, you MUST change with the change!!!! I wanna hear that C chord acknowledged!

but yes, rhythm is most important. again, here's where the chord changes come in--know those chords, and know all the possible places of playing them. I see a lot of people say "i'm a good rhythm player" and for them, that means they can keep time on three chords in one position...that ain't even the half of it! becoming a true, inventive rhythm player will help your lead playing tenfold.

Well, maybe that's what I've been doing wrong lol.

A lot of times, I'll listen to a recording of one of our gigs and sometimes I hear a note during a solo that seemed to be a good idea at the time...

Joel, if you are having phrasing problems try singing a vocal line over a progression and then do the exact same thing on your guitar.

That helped me a lot. It takes time though.

I will never be as good as 10% of the people that post here. I still have a lot to learn, although I was in 4 different bands at the same time in the late 80's. I'm not bragging or complaining. Just sayin'

[Joe-Bob]

You need to be able to hear where you are in the progression. If not, then practice it.

[Larry F]

It helps to look at a lot of chord progressions and see how they are structured. A few things that may be worth noting:

1. Try to eliminate embellishments and elaborations in your analysis of a chord progression. For example: A / A7 / is a single chord (it usually doesn't matter, structurally, if it is A or A7).

2. As someone mentioned above, 4-bar phrases are the backbone of most popular, blues, and jazz songs. If it is not a "song," then you might run into other structures.

3. Ingrain in your head, heart, hands, and ears the circle of dominants. For example:

C / / / | A7 / / / | D7 / / / | G7 / / / |

C / / / | / / / / |

In this example, A7 is the dominant of D7, D7 is the dominant of G7, and G7 is the dominant of C. Notice that C is the ultimate resolution and occurs at the start of the next 4-bar phrase. If you can hear the circle of dominants, then all you need to know is when it kicks in and on what chord. If it starts on G7, then the rest of the chords are C7, F7, Bb7, Eb7, until whenever the sequence stops. Needless to say, practice playing single note lines over these chords.

4. In jazz, you have lots of ii Vs, like:

Dm7 G7 | Gm7 C7 | Cm7 F7 | Fm7 Bb7 |

Notice that these are elaborations of the circle of dominants.

5. Obviously, you have to have your keys down cold so that you don't have to re-think things for every key. You might want to think in terms of functions, like I / / / | IV / / / | etc. The circle of dominants can be thought of either as functions, or just as a chain of resolutions that eventually lands on V I.

6. Study lots of songs in the style you will play in and see if you can break them down into 4-bar phrases.

[rodeo_joel]

hey thanks so much guys, for all your input. it's awesome to hear the various opinions and viewpoints of how you all learned to play the way you play.

IMO, this is what this forum is all about. A bunch of guys helping out another guy with a question. No arguing and bickering over trivial opinions (which unfortunately seems to happen too often). Just everybody trying to help everybody else become a better picker!

Cheers & Merry Christmas!
~Joel~

[ddewerd]

Originally Posted by rodeo_joel

No arguing and bickering over trivial opinions (which unfortunately seems to happen too often).

Cheers & Merry Christmas!
~Joel~

Yes, but...
my way is still the best

Just kidding

Hope everyone has a great Christmas!

Cheers,
Doug

[OceanBoy]

Originally Posted by rodeo_joel

hey thanks so much guys, for all your input. it's awesome to hear the various opinions and viewpoints of how you all learned to play the way you play.

IMO, this is what this forum is all about. A bunch of guys helping out another guy with a question. No arguing and bickering over trivial opinions (which unfortunately seems to happen too often). Just everybody trying to help everybody else become a better picker!

Cheers & Merry Christmas!
~Joel~

Oh Yeah! I've learned more in the 3 years I've been coming here than in the previous 30 years playing. There are so many incredible guitar players that post here. Very humbling.

Merry Christmas Everyone !!

[MondoGuitar]

There are so many incredible guitar players that post here. Very humbling.

Merry Christmas Everyone !!

+1.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by rodeo_joel

As an example, i'll use Vince Gill's song "Liza Jane":

the solo in that song runs over this progression:
A|A|A|A|C|D|A|A|C|D|A|A (with each chord given one measure)

...the long stretches over the A-chord is what i find most difficult to maintain my spot over top of. I get lost very easily.

Some good suggestions here, but my approach is simpler, I think, so I'll throw it out there and see if it helps anyone.

Look at each group of measures, and then count those... In the example you gave, there are four A's, a C and a D, two A's, then a C and a D, then repeat.

Count 'em like this:
A234 2234 3234 4234
C234 D234 A234 2234
C234 D234 A234 2234, etc.

BTW, it makes it easy to see the form too. Obviously Lisa Jane is a 12 bar form, but it works equally well for 8 or 16 bar forms, and even better if you're doing odd time siggie's like 7's or 5's, etc.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

Some good suggestions here, but my approach is simpler, I think, so I'll throw it out there and see if it helps anyone.

Look at each group of measures, and then count those... In the example you gave, there are four A's, a C and a D, two A's, then a C and a D, then repeat.

Count 'em like this:
A234 2234 3234 4234
C234 D234 A234 2234
C234 D234 A234 2234, etc.

BTW, it makes it easy to see the form too. Obviously Lisa Jane is a 12 bar form, but it works equally well for 8 or 16 bar forms, and even better if you're doing odd time siggie's like 7's or 5's, etc.

This is a good counting method. But I wonder if it needs to be counted at all. Since so much of what we hear since birth in music is based on 4 bar phrases, I would recommend that soloists access their inner clock. How much better would it be is people could feel it instead of count it.

If these were unusual phrases like 3 + 4 + 3 + 7 + 5m then, sure you would have to count that since we rarely hear these phrases. But with 4-bar phrases you have the rhythm section articulating every bar, every two bars, and every 4 bars. Learn to listen to the rhythm section.

[Charlesinator]

Hey Rodeo Joel, Joe Bob really hit the nail or note on the head (so to speak.) In order to hear where you are in the progression while soloing or improvising, YOU NEED TO LISTEN. I've been guilty as the next guy in the past just to close my eyes and wank and when I'm done count on the rhythm section to help me get out of it.

I've also found that most of my improvising is putting together licks, melodic passages, etc. that I'm very familiar with and certainly the majority of chord progressions that I solo over are some that I also have familiarity with as well. If it's something completely new then I'm dang sure listening to what is going on and I'm trying to well place some short melodic phrase and leave it at that.

If you are in fact learning to improvise, then may I suggest that you record several different chord progressions and try improvising over them. There are plenty of backing tracks available out there for purchase and for free as well, but ... by playing the chord progression yourself you become a little more familiar with it. Also there never has been a substitute for practice. Hope this helps.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Larry F

TI would recommend that soloists access their inner clock. How much better would it be is people could feel it instead of count it?

Bingo. Some are born with the clock right there at the front of their brain, other need to learn how to access it.

[otaypanky]

Originally Posted by Strat God

Let's not forget that the OP is a beginner player, so our suggestions are geared towards someone who hasn't achieved the mental plain of "In-The-Moment" or "Stream-Of-Consciousness" inprovisation yet.

That would be a different thread altogether - and one we should have.

Thanks, I had missed that while reading through the thread

Originally Posted by ironweed

Sing the lyrics in your head....

I agree with the weed on this, that's what the song is all about. Then learning how to play solos that indicate the chord changes is the other part.
Maybe it's just me, or because I tend toward music that's more basic by nature, but I think it would be very unnatural for me to be counting out measures and such while playing. The music I like is easy for me to internalize, and if I know the chord changes, then playing a solo spot is like singing or scatting through my guitar ~
Stick with it, listen and learn from the guys and girls here, and one day you'll surprise yourself and just be doing it without thinking about it

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

Bingo. Some are born with the clock right there at the front of their brain, other need to learn how to access it.

Some people can access their inner clocks easier than others, but for the rest of us, counting will get you in the game.

ALL of my beginning students, and the vast majority of my intermediate students don't know how to count... They need to be taught.

Obviously, when you're counting and playing at the same time, you need to be able to do the "split brain thing" as Tim Armstrong aptly put it.

Maybe my dogma is showing through here, but I think the key to playing in time (and not losing track of where you are) is a simple process that can be acquired through repetition and rout memory.

1st, Tap your foot.
2nd, Count the beats/bars/etc.
LBNL, Play.
Always.
In that order.

Tap Count Play.






























ps. If I misunderstood the original question, which is entirely possible, kindly disregard the above pedantic meanderings...

[Larry F]

1st, Tap your foot.
2nd, Count the beats/bars/etc.
LBNL, Play.
Always.
In that order.


That's exactly how I taught my guitar students many years ago. Once they got used to it, they could play any rhythm (within reason) or see exactly why they messed up. This is one of those times when you want the student to really take responsibility and be self-correcting when they practice at home.

[DavyA]

I didn't notice any mention of rhythmic phrasing. What you can do sometimes is stay with the phrasing of the melody but play different notes....people (including you) will still hear it as something familiar. Then, you could play it holding one note a little longer and making up for that by cutting other notes shorter. This can be very effective! What to stay in touch with where you are...and of course if you do lose you're way don't forget about using a rest (stop playing) till you find you're place!

Have fun!

[T Prior]

Nice replies,here is my 3 cents...

( not the G Clinton mode of meet me back at the 1)

If you don't actually know the song, you can't improvise over the chart, you gotta know the song first

Are you improvising in a single position on the fretboard? Knowing how to get to the same phrases in a few positions opens up the fretboard and your mind...

Can you play the melody line slowly ? Can you play the melody at all ?Try playing the singers part ( melody line) over the chart rather than improvise. Name the chord you are playing over in your head as you are working your way through the chart. If you are improvising can you name what chord position you are now playing over ?

All of this seems difficult but it really is not, it comes from A, knowing the song chart B, being familiar with the melody line C, Knowing a few different positions on the fretboard D knowing where the melody lays on the fretboard.

All of us get lost now and then and come up dry during a solo but the key is knowing how to get back without it being a total train wreck, that comes from going back to basics, the chart, the melody and simple phrases, even one note lines over the progression as mentioned above.

If you can't play it slow you can't play it fast

If you can't walk you can't run

If you don't know the song or the melody you most likely will stumble.

If you don't know the song and get lost there is no way back

I think we have all been here and at times we re-visit the scenario but experience directs us back to basics.

There is another thread going here on with regard to regular practice... good stuff there with regard to this scenario as well. Place the song you are having trouble with into daily practice and do it everyday for 30 days and you will become a very different player for that song.