Me and my metronome went for a walk....

[flatout9]

...And I kicked it into the neighbors yard. Unfortunately it's still clicking.

Need some help. I'm really focused on getting my licks in time. But when I slow a 16th note lick down and try to count all the way through without stopping my brain farts and it can't past beat 3 and the lick goes off into never never land. How do you break this down so it is manageable and can be bitten off in small pieces? Or do I just to push through until my eyes are crossed?

[Zeppelanoid]

I know this may not be an option, but I always found it helps when I hear someone else play it a couple times. My brain kind of registers how it's supposed to go and I eventually get there.

[boneyguy]

I'm assuming you're making each click on the metronome a quarter note? So for one bar you're getting four clicks. If that's what you're presently doing you could begin by making each click an eighth note so that you're now getting 8 clicks per bar. Do you follow? Then you would count "1 - and - 2 -and- 3 -and - 4- and -' for each bar and the metronome would click for each one of those beats.

What that will do is make it easier to hear and feel where the sixteenths should land because now you have metronome clicks happening closer to the sixteenth notes which helps keep you in time.
So rather than trying to 'feel' 4 notes between clicks you now have to 'feel' only 1 note between clicks.

After that becomes pretty easy then switch back to the metronome counting in quarter notes again (4 beats to a bar).

Here's a typical way of counting different note values. You can practice just saying these out loud with the metronome while practicing.

Quarter notes:
1-2-3-4

Eighth notes:
1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and

Sixteenth notes:
1-eh-and-ah-2-eh-and-ah-3-eh-and-ah-4-eh-and-ah

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

Sixteenth notes:
1-eh-and-ah-2-eh-and-ah-3-eh-and-ah-4-eh-and-ah

I've always done:
1-bah-dub-uh 2-bah-dub-uh 3-bah-dub-uh 3-bah-dub-uh

[Larry F]

I have finally gotten the hang of it by now, finally, but when I used to stumble over rhythm, I would break it down frame by frame, so to speak. I would attach a syllable to a rhythmic subdivision and make sure I knew where my pick was and my foot. To do this, you have to through ego and impatience out the window. When you approach it this way, you can spot where something goes wrong.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I have finally gotten the hang of it by now, finally, but when I used to stumble over rhythm, I would break it down frame by frame, so to speak. I would attach a syllable to a rhythmic subdivision and make sure I knew where my pick was and my foot. To do this, you have to through ego and impatience out the window. When you approach it this way, you can spot where something goes wrong.

Yes I agree. Breaking a phrase down into smaller pieces is hugely helpful.

Also doing 'no tempo' practice can be really helpful. When you take away any rythmic value from the notes you can then completely focus on the physical aspect of teaching your fingers where to go and the most efficient way of getting there.

[flatout9]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I have finally gotten the hang of it by now, finally, but when I used to stumble over rhythm, I would break it down frame by frame, so to speak. I would attach a syllable to a rhythmic subdivision and make sure I knew where my pick was and my foot. To do this, you have to through ego and impatience out the window. When you approach it this way, you can spot where something goes wrong.

This is what I'm aiming for but the impatience part is whats getting me. Also I'm realizing it's really syncopated with double stops so I think that makes it a little more challenging . A straight run wouldn't kill me but the syncopation is a brain squeeze.

[warmingtone]

All the suggestions here are helpful. The only thing to add to this is the possibility of programing a drum machine (there are a lot of free ones on line) or even something like guitar pro (which can also do drums) say with the high hats in a constanct 16th pattern and a simple beat pattern to get a feel for it. This is often useful for 'hearing' where 16th's, 8ths or triplets or rests interrupt the flow of 16's.

The traditional way of counting 16's is the "1-eh-and-ah-2-eh-and-ah-3-eh-and-ah-4-eh-and-ah" thing, if you are trying to do something very fast, you may be outpacing your inner voice to count like this. If it is one of those "endless run monster lick" patterns then your brain can "run out of breath" and in reality such rhythms are generally "heard" as 'sheets of sound' (as coltrane suggested) rather than counted individually.

But, there may be other reasons, it may help to know what kind of "lick" you are having trouble with. For instance, you might be fine with an alternate picking pattern till the lick skips a string and then you 'loose your place' or 'flow'. Solutions may be to slow things down further, or to change the picking or the fingering to allow smoother transitions.

When I used to practice scales and melodic patterns (ideal for getting this kind of thing down) I used an old Dr Beat metronome. Basic fair, but had a "ding" for the start of a bar, 4ers, 8ths,16ths and triplet subdivisions that could be dialed in. If yours can not do subdivisions like this, you can increase the speed and use the "ding" as the start of every beat...so 4xspeed of 4ers will give a ding on each beat (for triplets put it in 3/4).

Practicing scale like patterns in different subdivisions will help to give you the feel of beat subdivisions and long lines of notes without pause.

Sometimes you might have a tune that will put you in the "flow"...for 16ths i always think of the "sailors hornpipe" (or at least I think that's the tune, everyone knows it) and the last half has a continuous flow of 16s and an example of melodic patterns at work...

---5-4-----------------------------------------|-------------------------------------
--------7-5--7-5------------------------------|----------------------------------------
-------------------7-6--7-6-4-----4----------|------------4-6-7-4---6-------------------------
---------------------------------5-----7-6-4--|---4-6-7-------------------7---7~~------------
------------------------------------------------|-7-----------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------
....1 e & a...2 e & a..3 e & a...4 e & a......1 e & a...2 e & a.....3 and 4

This tune is so familiar (the rest is easy to work out, you see how it fits the A major "box" as I have written it) that you will have a good sense of the flow of 16s plus, the fingering pattern and skips helps practice unusual fingering and string skips...the tune carries you along.

It's often easier to get into the flow of things if you hear it and play it as a tune rather than just a sequence of notes and rhythms to challenge you.

All the other tips of breaking it down, slowing it down to a speed that you can play all parts, counting, etc should all be considered as well. But it is a bit like weight lifting, especially with licks that are long lines of notes that don't naturally "breath" like a sung line (which is itself an effect of breathlessness)...there are exercises that will get you into this kind of flow.

Beware doing too much, or you might loose touch with the natural phrasing of melody that is related to the brains internal "sing along" impulse (which is why a long string of 16ths has that "breath taking" effect) or you may loose the sensitivity to phrasing and you can end up thinking that long lines of 16ths are natural...to the listener such lines typically overload the brain and it just turns off!

It is most likely that this is what is tripping you up, the brain can be molded, but it can also rebel!

---

Edit...i see that while typing this the OP has added information about syncopation.

One of the tricks you may also use in this thing is to create words that correspond to the rhythm...so instead of strict counting, you find words that's syllables can correspond to the syncopated pattern. Otherwise, really internalize the melody enough to sing it (if only internally)...and as before, break the "lick" down.

[Tim Bowen]

Earlier in the week, I was working with a student on a wah'ed passage with loads of 16th notes by a modern rock band (Creed, or Three Doors Down, or somebody like that... my short term memory sucks anymore). Anyway, it was totally bamboozling him.

We did work with a metronome, and we did subdivide with quarters and eighths. I think what helped him more than anything though was to first work on playing the extended passage with only the notes that occurred on the downbeats of each measure, and with very exaggerated accents. Sense of downbeat is often the problem in this respect, and what I wanted the guy to be able to do was feel it, above the consideration of counting it.

Oddly (and not a strict 16th's thing per se), but lots of folks have trouble landing on the "target" note in bar #11 of Jimmy Page's famous ride on "Stairway to Heaven" (phrase = measures nine-eleven); obviously, there are more syncopated musical examples, but the song remains the same: when in doubt, default choice is to be able to sing the phrase.

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by flatout9

This is what I'm aiming for but the impatience part is whats getting me. Also I'm realizing it's really syncopated with double stops so I think that makes it a little more challenging . A straight run wouldn't kill me but the syncopation is a brain squeeze.

yet it is what makes a phrase interesting. imagine someone play stright 16th all night. nah!

better go to your neighbor, apologize and get your click back ;-)
breaking a phrase in smaller parts helps, trying to learn the parts that don't work seperately also helps. you do not have to play a bar chronologically, figure out which parts are most challenging and learn them first.

[Warren Pederson]

Just worry about the ONE two THREE four and forget the rest. Really. What you fit inside the beats will come natural (this from a guy who has worse timing than Navin Johnson).

[Al Watsky]

The thing to do is slow the whole thing down.
If your making mistakes you need to step back and look closely at every aspect of the activity.
Don't try to count or perform the lick at its actual tempo. Slow it down so that you can count or play through it perfectly. That may require that you set a very slow tempo.
Perhaps 30 beats per minute or even less. Once you find a tempo that you can count or play perfectly you can gradually increase the speed.
If your making mistakes with counting rhythm there is something you are not understanding, take it slow and figure it out.

[flatout9]

Originally Posted by Al Watsky

The thing to do is slow the whole thing down.
If your making mistakes you need to step back and look closely at every aspect of the activity.
Don't try to count or perform the lick at its actual tempo. Slow it down so that you can count or play through it perfectly. That may require that you set a very slow tempo.
Perhaps 30 beats per minute or even less. Once you find a tempo that you can count or play perfectly you can gradually increase the speed.
If your making mistakes with counting rhythm there is something you are not understanding, take it slow and figure it out.

I want to be able to count through the whole thing. Maybe I should just count the down beats instead of trying to count 16hth's. The passage is only a bar and a half. But getting the pick, my fingers, my left hand, my foot and mouth to work together is a slap back to reality. The 30 BPM is going to drive into the wall.

I shall persevere!!

[John R.]

Same idea, slight difference. Feels more natural, but then this is how I learned to count 16ths out...
One-and-ee-uh-two-and-ee-uh-three-and-ee-uh-four-and-ee-uh...

Master it slow first, then increase speed slightly.