From rhythm to lead

[yonie]

After 2 years of playing rhythm guitar I can say I've got playing chords nailed down to my satisfaction. I love playing stuff by the Smiths or Beatles because of the great chord progressions. Fingerpicking is no problem either, just sayin'

Now I guess the next step is to learn lead guitar, or 'licks' or whatever you call 'em. There is this great article on this site (http://www.tdpri.com/2009/10/03/how-...op-vocabulary/) which I'm keen to go through as well. But to do so i'll need some good licks to start out with. Could anyone of you recommend me any specific tunes?

Maybe some country songs would be good, I don't really know much of those because country music isn't exactly popular over here.

Thanks in advance!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by yonie

Maybe some country songs would be good, I don't really know much of those because country music isn't exactly popular over here.

Thanks in advance!

Workin Man Blues Country Must Know Song. The first part of the tab is straight off the record, the second half is all me.


Workin Man Blues:
I IV
G C
-------------------------------------------------------
------3-----5--3------------8-----10--8----------------
------3-h-4-5--3-h-4--------8-h-9-10-8-h-9------------
---5-----------------5--/10-----------------10---------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

I V
G D
-------------------------------------------------------
------3-----5--3------------10--------12--10------------
------3-h-4-5--3-h-4--------10--h-11-12--10-h-11-------
---5-----------------5--/12----------------------12----
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

IV I
C G
----------------------------------------------------
-----8-----10--8------------3------5---------------
-----8-h-9-10--8-h-9--------3-h-4-5-h-4-----------
/10------------------10--5----------------5--------
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------


Solo:

Solo:
G
---------3--3----3--/7----------3--3-----3---------15--12--10--
---3 h-5-------5---------3-h-5--------5-----3-h 5--------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------


--------10----------10--------10-------------------------------------
-10(12)-----10(12)-----10(12)-----(12)10-8---------------------------
-------------------------------------------------3---5---3---5---3---
----------------------------------------------/5---5---5---5---5-----
---------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------------------
------3-----5--3--------------------------------------
------3-h-4-5--3-h-4--------5---7---5---7---5-------
--/5-----------------5----/7---7---7---7---7---------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------3-----5-3--------5-3-------5-3----------
-----3---5---3---5---3-----3-h-4-5-3-h-4----5-3-h 4---5-3-h-4-----
--/5---5---5---5---5----/5----------------5----------5----------5---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Link: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-...ythm-solo.html

[Joe-Bob]

I never thought there was any difference. Either you can play guitar or you can't.

Do you want to learn to parrot what other people have done or do you want to learn to improvise?

Most solos are based on the melodies of the songs. Learn those first. Then embellish them. That's the point of departure. Learn all your major and harmonic minor scales. Don't waste time on "modes".

[Jason R.]

yonie, I think I know what you mean.

I started my path into "lead" work in '96 after I felt quite comfortable strumming all "normal" chords. That is to say, all first position chords, barre chords and some jazz chords (6ths, 9ths, maj7, etc.).

I got a book and CD by Fred Sokolow called "Basic Blues for Guitar" and it helped me learn some basic positions for soloing. The title is misleading because he covers rock, country and some very basic jazz styles as well. I highly recommend it; it is available at Amazon and was the best $20 I ever spent towards unlocking the fret board and learning some tricks of the trade.

[brewwagon]

quote joe- bob "Most solos are based on the melodies of the songs."


-!

bw

[Joe-Bob]

Yeah brewwagon, they are. Not everyone plays blues. In fact there are lots more people playing jazz, and they all do solos.

[brewwagon]

-!


hammer hitting a nail on the head

bw

i can grab the melody right away so i build from there

its like chet atkins said you have to use your ear its the best tool you have

[warmingtone]

If you like the Beatles and know some songs already, you wouldn't go far wrong starting out learning a few Harrison solos...there will be plenty of tabs about for most of these and a little masterpieces.

Not a country expert myself, but a lot of pop like beatles were influenced in that way. Learning the minor and major pentatonics are always useful...not sure about the harmonic minor at all really.

I know a lot of people here seem to be down on the whole modes, but it depends largely on how you learn them and apply the concept. To my surprise, the bass player that I jam with has lessons from a very reputable teacher and just got exposed to the mode thing last week. I was a little doubtful over the use at first (even though i am a "modal player myself") but it immediately became apparent how this was incredibly useful in arpeggiating "chord scales" within a key. This immediately made it apparent with bass (not a chordal instrument) the families of majors minors and dominants within a key (in C Cmaj-Dmin-Emin-Fmaj-Gdom-Amin-Bhalf diminished) and the differences between the various chords (the natural extensions, etc) The result is a much better insight into the nature of chord progressions and the way bass lines (similarly with "lead" melody lines too) can be built.

I added to these early stages the idea of practicing and so hearing modes from the same root...this helps a lot with things link the various modes that you do find in typical songs (much more so than you will ever encounter the harmonic minor).

With half an hour of talking, i showed him a bit of the whole tone scale and how you might use it for the augmented chord in a song we play "stand by me" (also recorded by Lennon), something that would have been difficult to grasp without the introduction of "modes" or chord scale relationships.

So...modes, have their uses for sure, but not where you want to jump in at. Better to get into learning accessible solos as mentioned and trying to musically play the melodies of songs...kind of like the shadows perhaps...it can often be more difficult than you think to do this but will always hold you in good stead, train your ear and transcribing skills for the future, and possibly be better for you than simply running up and down scales to begin with.

Sure blues soloing has it's licks and sound, and you could do that if that is your true love, but with bands like the beatles and the smiths, melodic and other approaches may better serve.

[Jellyroll]

+1 on The Beatles....Harrison has some of the tastiest and simplest and most beautiful melodic solos ever. Learn em. If you know chords, these solos will make sense over them and help you to understand what makes a great solo.

[B Valley]

Originally Posted by Jellyroll

+1 on The Beatles....Harrison has some of the tastiest and simplest and most beautiful melodic solos ever. Learn em. If you know chords, these solos will make sense over them and help you to understand what makes a great solo.

Almost every great guitar player started out learning someone else's solos. It's a great way to learn, either by ear or from tabs. Keep in mind a solo doesn't have to be terribly elaborate to be good. Combining some solo riffs in your rhythm playing is cool, too.

[Ortho]

A few thoughts. I think a lot of stuff that gets filed under "lead" is a bit mislabeled.

I do not consider riffs and licks "lead." They do not FUNCTION that way. There are of course single note rhythms. Lines that are quasi-melodic (as in Folsom Prison Blues) FUNCTION at least for me as a source of continuity, bounce anf yes rhythm...it's the FUNCTION that I listen to and look at...

Jazz has a clearly defined sense of "the solo." So did Rock (including Metal), Art Rock, Blues Rock....and yes, Blues...

If we're talking Country (in the popular sense) things are based more on chordal structures even during what we call "solos"...and I would dare say various "effects" (chicken pickin, etc) in contrast to Jazz (mostly melodic/scale) and Country Jazz as in Chet Atkins...Rock and Blues Rock and Blues are somewhere inbetween, kind of hybriding chordal structure and melodic scale based playing...(ex. Hendrix, SRV).

I'll say this: I think the notion of "lead guitar" is vastly overrated...even to the extent that what FUNCTIONALLY amounts to rhythm is out of a sense of inferiority? labeled "lead." Not talking Jazz here.

Jazz. There are guitarists who study for years and are technically and theoretically adept...but the word is this, even on some Jazz forums...that there are relatively few even truly good (not saying great here) jazz guitarists...and the majority who even at first seem brilliant are mostly wannabes simply playing back all those scales and all those lessons...

[yonie]

Thanks for chiming in, everyone. This does clear some things up for me regarding what 'lead' playing is and what it is not..

Also I'll start working on Harrisson work the next couple of weeks, see where i end up.

[warmingtone]

Originally Posted by Ortho

A few thoughts. I think a lot of stuff that gets filed under "lead" is a bit mislabeled.

I do not consider riffs and licks "lead." They do not FUNCTION that way. There are of course single note rhythms. Lines that are quasi-melodic (as in Folsom Prison Blues) FUNCTION at least for me as a source of continuity, bounce anf yes rhythm...it's the FUNCTION that I listen to and look at...

Jazz has a clearly defined sense of "the solo." So did Rock (including Metal), Art Rock, Blues Rock....and yes, Blues...

If we're talking Country (in the popular sense) things are based more on chordal structures even during what we call "solos"...and I would dare say various "effects" (chicken pickin, etc) in contrast to Jazz (mostly melodic/scale) and Country Jazz as in Chet Atkins...Rock and Blues Rock and Blues are somewhere inbetween, kind of hybriding chordal structure and melodic scale based playing...(ex. Hendrix, SRV).

I'll say this: I think the notion of "lead guitar" is vastly overrated...even to the extent that what FUNCTIONALLY amounts to rhythm is out of a sense of inferiority? labeled "lead." Not talking Jazz here.

Jazz. There are guitarists who study for years and are technically and theoretically adept...but the word is this, even on some Jazz forums...that there are relatively few even truly good (not saying great here) jazz guitarists...and the majority who even at first seem brilliant are mostly wannabes simply playing back all those scales and all those lessons...

An interesting perspective. I don't want to start a debate about what is or not lead guitar as it would be fairly pointless, not sure that I entirely agree or that everyone thinks that way about "lead" guitar, although I confess that I have been a little guilty of it in the past perhaps.

In general a "soloist" or lead player is working with more melodic ideas than harmonic/rhythmic things and there is a big difference and leap for most to do that. In recent years, personally, i have been far more interested in the cross over between rhythm and lead styles, in part by necessity and in that the "rhythm" is by far the bulk of most playing and deserves at least as much attention.

I think there is a broad area of cross over with fills and melodic riffs that might be a part of a song and can see the point of functionality that you are trying to make. The division is a little blurred though and not worth arguing the toss.

There are other aspects of "lead" playing that comes up again, the ability to improvise for instance over playing note for note "lead breaks" as an example...both different skills. And there are lots of genre specific things, i was careful here not to suggest learn the "blues box" pentatonic thing and away you go as the OP was indicating an interest in a different style where this may not be as applicable compared to another who really wants to dedicate themselves to that art.

Still...there is a lot of cross over and the next logical step for any player. The learning of some scales and melody playing, techniques and fills and solos can never go astray and will inform your rhythm playing as well as opening up a lot of understanding in things like chords, progressions and song writing...to name just a few benefits.

I would also agree in large part about your closing comments, I have been playing a long time before all this internet stuff and the "culture" has largely changed I suspect. That does seem to me that there are a lot of 'impressive' players out there that can play well by rote, but their playing is typically not a patch on the original and that artist generally had to come up with the stuff as well as play it better...so you know, each to their own and everything with a grain of salt.

The main part in whatever you do is to enjoy it and the process. There is nothing wrong at all in learning and being able to perform a particular solo or whatever, not everyone has to progress to jazz or anything to prove that they are "good"...I have always been fascinated by the idea of being a "good guitarist" and gone through many phases to reach for that goal. One thing that seems to continue to come back to me is that it does not matter how much you know, how fast you can play, how authentic the imitation of how hard a piece, whatever...it is being able to enjoy what you do, impress yourself and feel a sense of accomplishment, help others you are playing with to feel the same, and to impress...well, I sometimes say "girls" (but it could be anyone not a guitar peer)...basically the audience you wish to impress at a given time.

The biggest rewards I have ever garnered have been to be sensitive enough to an audiences desires and to be able to fulfill them, even if and often especially when there there is only a few people or people that I care about. Often, it is about making another player sound good...this occurred recently with the bass player I jam with in front of his wife, after all this time hearing him practice alone, she finally was able to hear that instrument in context and what it is all about, the way to do that is to make a great noise without distracting from that players time to shine.

Anyway...just a few thoughts on a thought provoking post with some interesting and valid points for anyone to consider. It is easy to get the impression that a "good guitarist" is a "lead guitarist" and far too much emphasis is placed on melodic concepts compared to rhythm stuff...it's just virtually impossible to "tab out" hahaha...but real musicians and audience know a good guitarist is one that "sounds good" and this usually means a tune well done and not some gymnastics.

[klasaine]

Still to this day when I show up to a gig - usually only when I'm carrying a hardshell case and especially a tolex Fender case - some guy ALWAYS asks, "rhythm or lead". They seem to be much more impressed when I say lead so 'lead guitar' it is for me.

When I was in high school and would take my Tele to school (tolex case of course) I would get the question, "lead or bass". That still cracks me up - lead, or bass.

To the OP : I got no advice per se other than that you'll get there. Everybody arrives from a slightly different road. Since you already dig the Beatles, learn some Beatles solos - ?

[Tim Bowen]

As to the "rhythm or lead?", "bass or lead?" and "what sort of music do you play" questions, the only appropriate response I've been able to come up with is "I try to be a musician. But sometimes I fail." If that doesn't do, the conversation is over before it started anyway.

I think a lot of folks try to distinguish between rhythms and leads simply as based upon whether the musical passages in question contain a blazing series of single note gnat-note flurries, as compared to those which contain chordal passages and chord fragments. Painists and organists certainly don't think this way, and neither did Jimi Hendrix. Monophonic instrumentalists such as saxophonists do by default, as monophony is the only available avenue. To me, a "lead" is any passage or melody that makes a signature statement above the perceived level of textural support and accompaniment, but even so, the lines remain blurred.

As to brass tacks.

* Do the academics. Personally, everything looks like a chord to me, or at least part of a chord. I occasionally enjoy the "let the fingers do the walking" approach, but for the most part, I won't play it unless I hear it relating to the changes or vamp in some way, even if it's in a wacky sort of way. Do the harmony and theory. Learn the intervals and inversions and extensions, and if the music becomes more sophisticated, learn some chord substitutions. Scales, arps, modes, and melodic sequences as played as such without chicken grease are only so much math; nonetheless, they remain integral elements of the toolbox. If this is overwhelming, hire a teacher.

* Do the cross-referencing of musical styles. If you hear a cool Jimmy Smith Hammond B3 thing on a blues number, and you're a country (or whatever) player, harmonically and rhythmically adapt the bit to be superimposed over a 7th chord in whatever style you play, and same could be said of any cross-referencing pursuit. Chances are, you'll need to tweak the original bit to make it fit the tune at hand (and be psyched in advance that said approach can initially sound trite and contrived - it's okay; do the woodshedding at home, and let the new stuff fall into your playing naturally by osmosis on the bandstand - don't force it, let it take its course); over time, you'll forget where you got the original inspiration as it becomes drenched with your personality, and as you extrapolate upon the original impetus of the line or concept. This has been standard M.O. for musicians for countless years.

* As to guitar per se (or not really, as to some points, which relate back to general harmony and theory). Definitely learn the CAGED system of visualizing the board. Any comments in opposition of such that you might've read about - for practical purposes, you can toss those out the window. Learn the CAGED system, trust me. True, it's not the only way of seeing and hearing, but as a basic road map, it's nearly impossible to go wrong with it. Most of that system's detractors are still basing their basic choices upon this system, whether they care to admit it or not.

It's important to know all the intervals, but there's a pecking order. Obviously, it makes sense to relate back to a root note. However, I think it's important to note that roots, octaves, and 5ths (other than diatonic b5's) - are mostly neutral by nature, and do not determine basic tonality. Minor and major thirds and sevenths are far more impactful in the grand scheme of things. What I call "dancing around the 3rd" (sus2 and sus4) is a major player for the musician that chooses to think chordally. Diatonic 3rds and 6ths are a big deal. 4ths are often an avoid note in single note playing, but it depends upon context. The remainder of intervallic options (and extensions, and alterations) should fall within consideration after these basic choices, in my opinion.

* Learn lots of songs in different styles. It's impossible to go wrong with The Beatles. Catalog "sounds" within your head. For instance, as to The Beatles - learn the sound of the major - major7th - dominant 7th "line cliche' " that occurs in Hey Jude, and file it within the ears and brain.

* At the end of every practice session, turn the brain off, flip across the dial of your radio, and improvise along with (and create parts for) every tune that you hear, including stuff that you hate.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

* As to guitar per se (or not really, as to some points, which relate back to general harmony and theory). Definitely learn the CAGED system of visualizing the board. Any comments in opposition of such that you might've read about - for practical purposes, you can toss those out the window. Learn the CAGED system, trust me. True, it's not the only way of seeing and hearing, but as a basic road map, it's nearly impossible to go wrong with it. Most of that system's detractors are still basing their basic choices upon this system, whether they care to admit it or not.



* At the end of every practice session, turn the brain off, flip across the dial of your radio, and improvise along with (and create parts for) every tune that you hear, including stuff that you hate.

There's a couple of us here who have repeatedly and consistently stood up for the usefullness of the CAGED system. It's detractors seem firmly entrenched however in making it seem frivalous or worse. Anyway, your statement above is well said and should be taken seriously and sincerely by the OP. Just understanding the basic premise of CAGED will fairly quickly allow a person to see the fretboard in a cohesive and organized manner. And yes, whether you 'believe' in it or subscribe to it doesn't matter because you are using it regardless.

Your final point above is worth it's weight in gold as well. I got hip to this many, many years ago and still to this day when I'm watching TV will sit with my guitar and 'improvise' with commercials and any music contained within a TV show. My girlfriend seems to have a very high tolerance for my potentially relationship destroying habit.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Most solos are based on the melodies of the songs. Learn those first. Then embellish them.

and there you have it.