minor scale-which one

[monfoodoo]

What is the most commonly used minor scale?minor,harmonic or melodic?I am seeing if i can get a jump on my teacher when (before) we get to the Minor scales.

[Budda]

Either Pentatonic or Dorian, I would say.

Many players treat every Minor Chord like a ii Chord and use Dorian from the same Root.

[jazztele]

yeah, i'd agree--minor pentatonic seems to get used more often, well, in many contexts...

cuz it does depend on the music-- in a jazz context, i use a lot of Dorian and a lot of Melodic Minor as well...after those two, i'd say i use minor pentatonic and natural minor (aeolian) a bit less.

it's certainly important to know minor pentatonic, natural minor, and dorian for just about any kind of music, and if you're hip to jazz, melodic and harmonic are good tools as well (i find more uses for MM, but maybe that's me)

i probably use phyrgian and locrian the least

...and yes, i know I'm using the words mode and scale interchangably here and that's probably confusing, but it's helping me make my point and not write a friggin' essay in the progress!

[wangdangdoodle]

Depends on the kind of music.

I'd say minor pentatonic in general, but for Jazz it's harmonic minor for sure.

[jazztele]

really? harmonic minor?

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

I'd say minor pentatonic in general, but for Jazz it's harmonic minor for sure.

Not so fast. In Jazz, you improvise over the chords, not over the key, because there are too many modulations in a typical jazz tune to do the latter. So what scale should you use over a minor chord? Depends on how that chord is functioning -- it's context.

In a classic bebop ii-V7-I:

Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7

The most common scale used over the Dmin7 would be D Dorian:

D E F G A B C

(I say most common, because you can get away with anything as long as you resolve it. Remember: one bum note is a mistake; more than that is Jazz.)

On the other hand, if the minor is acting as a tonic:

Emin7b5 A7#5b9 Dmin

What would you play over the D minor chord now? I'd lean more towards having a leading tone (C#) to emphasize the D minor is a tonic chord. And I'd avoid harmonic minor because of the "Turkish bazaar" sound of the augmented second: Bb->C#. So I'd say the most common scale in this case is the Jazz minor (melodic minor still keeping the major 6th and 7ths descending):

D E F G A B C# D C# B C A G F E D

That being said, Jazz is so chromatic using either Bb/B, or C/C# isn't a problem. Use them all and see what sounds best!

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by jazztele

really? harmonic minor?

I wish I could be so succinct

[jazztele]

well, now that i look back at it, it looks like i'm coming at his head a little there--sorry wangdang, you're my man!

i just associate the "harmonic minor sound" in jazz with that exact example you posted (the minor ii V i) which is a sound i associate with those cats who sit around and argue about whether or not joscho stephan used appropriate "gypsy picking" or alternate picking in some 5 second passage on youtube...

sorry, no ill will to the gypsy jazzers of the world, but i was told at a gig recently (by a few cats from a local GJ club that were there) that if i ever got a django style guitar, I should come jam with them sometime. Now i have a GJ style guitar too, but I'm sure it isn't authentic enough for those maccaferri-sniffers!

[wangdangdoodle]

Hahaha, yeah as pointed out I think harmonic minor is really common in minor II-V-I's because it obviously contains the guide tones of each chord. And if you're leaning towards that C# in the II-V-I that's coming from D Harmonic minor.

Using just the harmonic minor scale over say a D- minor would definatley sound a little eastern and scaley! Personally if I was playing over that I would be thinking dorian with a #7.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

r.

Using just the harmonic minor scale over say a D- minor would definatley sound a little eastern and scaley! Personally if I was playing over that I would be thinking dorian with a #7.

dorian with a #7 = Jazz minor = melodic minor (ascending) = D E F G A B C# D

I think we're all in agreement now.

[morroben]

Not to hijack this thread, but here is an example of something my tiny brain has often wondered.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

In a classic bebop ii-V7-I:

Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7

Why is the V chord specified as a V7 but the ii and I are not, when they are all some type of 7 chord in the example?

[fakeocaster]

Id treat it as a major ii V I in F and I might change the C to C# over the V chord(or have it as an option)

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by morroben

Not to hijack this thread, but here is an example of something my tiny brain has often wondered.

Why is the V chord specified as a V7 but the ii and I are not, when they are all some type of 7 chord in the example?

Since I wrote that I can just plead laziness. You see "two-five-one" (note the neutral notation) written down any number of ways. You can see ii-V-I (lowercase indicating minor) or II-V-I (you know the two is minor anyway) or IIMin7-V7-IMaj7 (spelling it out) or ii-V7-I (dominant chords are important so we emphasize them by written V7). In the end, don't read too much into the notation. The author may have thought less about it that you!

[wangdangdoodle]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

dorian with a #7 = Jazz minor = melodic minor (ascending) = D E F G A B C# D

I think we're all in agreement now.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out! I remember when I was learning all my melodic minor scales then I watched a Jimmy Bruno video and got converted to thinking the dorian #7 way.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out! I remember when I was learning all my melodic minor scales then I watched a Jimmy Bruno video and got converted to thinking the dorian #7 way.

Indeed. It's probably good to think of it in as many ways as are useful. I sometimes think of it as a major scale with a minor third:

D E F# G A B C# D ==> D E F G A B C# D

[Chris S.]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

...what scale should you use over a minor chord? Depends on how that chord is functioning -- it's context.

Bingo, we have a winner. I use 'em all, just depends what sound(s) (i.e., emotion) I'm shooting for. It's really worth it to have all the minor scales at your disposal, IMO. -- CS

[octatonic]

Harmonic minor is used in jazz but not nearly as much as melodic minor, and super locrian mode (7th mode of melodic minor).
Super-Locrian is very useful over altered dominant chords that return to the I.

Also lydian dominant is used a lot over non-functioning V chords.

[BigDaddyLH]

You could say: melodic minor, is there nothing it can't do?! For example, given this progression:

Dmin7b5 G7#5b9 Cmin C7 ... You could play a different melodic minor (MM) over each one (or rather, a mode of the MM):

Dmin7b5 : F MM : F G Ab Bb C D E -- what's this called in practice? 6th mode of MM?
G7#5b9 : Ab MM : Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G -- G super locrian
Cmin : C MM : C D Eb F G A B C -- the most basic use
C7 : G MM : G A Bb C D E F# -- C lydian dominant
...

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by monfoodoo

What is the most commonly used minor scale?minor,harmonic or melodic?I am seeing if i can get a jump on my teacher when (before) we get to the Minor scales.

So back to the OP.

If you want to get a 'jump' on what your teacher is going to give. I'll even go as far as to say should give you to start ...

(In order)
Natural Minor (also known as the Aeolian mode and is the 'relative' minor of a C major scale) - A B C D E F G
Minor 7th (dorian mode) - A B C D E F# G
Minor pentatonic (out lines many minor scales as well as the 'blues' scale) - A C D E G (if he starts with this? - cool, it's probably the most easily useful to start jamming with).

Then maybe Melodic Minor - A B C D E F# G#
and Harmonic Minor - A B C D E F G#

[klasaine]

[quote] BigDaddyLH "You could say: melodic minor, is there nothing it can't do?! "

+1.
If you had to limit yourself to one 'secret to playing jazz' it would be to learn the mel.min. scale inside and out.

[strat a various]

If you like to think about modes, the II, III, VI and VII Modes are all minor scales that are the intervals of a Major scale, Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, and Locrian, that is II min7, III min 7, Natural Minor, and min7 b5. These are easy scales and you should have them under your fingers.

[flatout9]

Originally Posted by jazztele

yeah, i'd agree--minor pentatonic seems to get used more often, well, in many contexts...

cuz it does depend on the music-- in a jazz context, i use a lot of Dorian and a lot of Melodic Minor as well...after those two, i'd say i use minor pentatonic and natural minor (aeolian) a bit less.

it's certainly important to know minor pentatonic, natural minor, and dorian for just about any kind of music, and if you're hip to jazz, melodic and harmonic are good tools as well (i find more uses for MM, but maybe that's me)

i probably use phyrgian and locrian the least

...and yes, i know I'm using the words mode and scale interchangably here and that's probably confusing, but it's helping me make my point and not write a friggin' essay in the progress!

I find Locrian to fit well over most tunes in country. There is nothing like the dissonance that creates the tension. Almost like someone's trailer being pulled off the blocks when they least expected it. As the trailer comes off the blocks you start wondering why you didn't pay that last bill for the double wide. Thank God you got the tele to go beat repo man off. I love Phrygian on a cold lonely night. But I will tell you Lydian gets me all hot and bothered. I feel like I'm hanging on a beach with some SI bikini model and we just be making out like a bunch of band geeks!

[BigDaddyLH]

I'm sensing a new thread idea here, because I find it helpful to associate modes with specific imagery.

Phrygian: drinking sangria, but you're not in Spain. You're at lunch in a middling franchise restaurant where the daily special is always fajitas.

Locrian: your annual digital prostate exam. Afterward your wife tells you she's rented a movie but it's The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. You beg off and go to the corner store. Where you...

Aeolian: bump someone from High School. She was a fat girl then but now you think she's zoftig. At her apartment you drink Jagermeister and Red Bull. Seems that she's into Scientology and Amway but earns a living from breeding Labradoodles. Back at your house:

Lydian: you're looking at yourself in the bathroom mirror thinking you should grow some underlip foliage and just feeling hip with the notion.

Ionian (major): your wife is sound asleep. Snoring. Yet when you get into bed and move towards her she can say very clearly "don't even think of it". You dream:

Lydian dominant: you're chicken picking and it's amazing. You're playing in a bar and no one notices that you're actually a giant cockroach or dung beetle. Yes, they do, because someone says, "that S.O.B. cockroach sure can play!".

In the morning you wake up with cotton mouth and one eyelid twitching. Your wife is already off at hot yoga and your children are still asleep. You make a pot of coffee: Dorian.

[Tim Bowen]

Good comments all around.

Obviously, minor pentatonic is the safest choice (and I'm not ragging on this venerable tool - I'm a HUGE fan). In deciding between natural minor and dorian: as big a fan as I am of knowing the math (and I think a musician absolutely should), I'm gonna say... toss the theory out the window for this one and simply use your ear. Aeolian (natural minor) has a minor sixth and Dorian has a major sixth. It's relatively easy to hear what works and what doesn't in this case. Play 'em both over the tune at hand and your ear won't lie to you. If you're playing something like a im-IV7 vamp, or a groove along the lines of the Allman Brothers Band's "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" or The Temptations' "Smiling Faces Sometimes" (Norman Whitfield/Barrett Strong), it's a safe bet that Dorian will be home base tonality.

Harmonic minor is the scale from which basic minor key tonalities are derived. The raised 7th presents a leading tone and a dominant 7th V chord. One reason that Aeolian (natural) minor is tricky is because when you diatonically harmonize the scale, the v chord is minor, not a dominant 7th. While there are tunes that feature a v minor chord, inclusion of a V7 is far more prevalent.

I'd agree that melodic minor is one of the most useful colors in music, and I certainly lean on it hard. If you start connecting patterns of melodic minor across the board, you almost don't need to specifically isolate augmented and whole tone concepts for study, because all that stuff lives within the almighty melodic minor scale.

One extremely common and useful application for the harmonic minor scale in jazz is to use it a 4th above the root of a dominant chord (ex: A harmonic minor over E7). This allows a major third over E7. A melodic minor allows same, so as to deciding between the two, it boils down to how one would prefer to treat the 6th scale degree. A great example of a standard over which this approach can be mercilessly milked to death over the 7th chords, is "All of Me".

On another thread, someone commented that ii-V-i's are easier to play over than ii-V-I's. Somebody commented that for a minor key ii-V, you can't go wrong with playing harmonic minor over the ii and the V, and resolving to dorian for the i minor chord. I couldn't agree more.

There are plenty of "non-jazz"/ blue collar tunes where I regularly utilize some of these sounds on the bandstand. I regularly call on A harmonic minor over the V7 chord for chestnuts such as "House of the Rising Sun" or Dylan's "One More Cup of Coffee". Or I might choose to play melodic minor up a half step from the root of the dominant 7 (F melodic minor over E7). When I play Dylan's "Simple Twist of Fate", I often use A melodic minor over the A minor chord, after this chord has followed an A major chord, and before it settles into a home base E major tonality.

Some folks don't find lots of uses for m7b5 sounds, but m7b5 arps are among my best friends. For starters, these arps lay beautifully on the fingerboard. Obviously, it's the arp of choice over the ii in a minor ii-V, but it has other uses as well. Minor7b5 arps up a third from the root yields a 9th chord, and m7b5 arps up a sixth from the root yields a minor 6th chord. I use both of these approaches over dominant chords all the time. As to the latter, there's a minor third imposed over a chord that contains a major third, but in many ways, such is the very essence of Blues. The combination of the minor third and the major sixth yields what I often refer to as a "sweet and sour" tone over a dominant chord. John Scofield is a noteable proponent of this sound, for what it's worth.

In any event, note choice is a matter of taste, and everybody knows that there's no accounting for taste.

[monfoodoo]

i believe he has already laid this out for me,but didn't mention it was the minor scale positions (yet).After finding the 5 positions on the internet,i realized that i already know the layout and been playing it for two weeks.This is off the G scale.

[morroben]

So I've been playing Aeolian and Ionian all these years without even knowing my modes. Guess I should branch out more.

[Budda]

You've probably been playing all of the Modes. Just that you've been doing so within the confines of a couple of "Shapes".

Although, those Boxes above are just the Pentatonics. Just adding 2 Notes to each would yield the Full Monty.........

For the most part, Theory is just meant as a way to describe what is already done. Many are put off by "Theory" because they think it has no real bearing on what they do. However, they often find that they have been usig quite a bit of it without knowing they are.

Dive in, Man! The water's fine.........

[monfoodoo]

I've been practicing the complete full and 5 note scales in the standard modes starting with the Ionian.So when he laid this down this setup in my book,he only mentioned that it was another way to run the fretboard and we would get to the minor scales later.It threw me as to why i would play the modes in this new arrangement ,but i did not question him at the time,but now i see.

[Telenator]

It's real important (in my opinion) to know where the minor pentatonic comes from. All too often it becomes the "go to" scale for wanking on just about anything with a rock or blues feel.

If you're soloing over the Am G F progression like Stairway to Heaven or All Along the Watchtower, you're going to have a problem with the E in the scale every time you hit the F chord. It's important to know when to include the F and when not to. A simple pent minor doesn't include the flat 6 therefore most people just force the E into play. Once you indentify it, you'll be amazed how many people just gloss over that little detail and wank along contently.

The pentatonic scales are very useful but shouldn't be the first thing you grab. The notes that are left out of the pent scales ar ethe ones that truly convey to cool emotions.

[morroben]

Originally Posted by Budda

You've probably been playing all of the Modes. Just that you've been doing so within the confines of a couple of "Shapes".

Although, those Boxes above are just the Pentatonics. Just adding 2 Notes to each would yield the Full Monty..........

Good point, and actually, I do always add those two extra notes. Since all this pentatonic talk has started going on around here I've been trying to force myself to leave some notes out. It's harder than I thought it would be. Having learned the full scales back in the day, my hands just automatically go to some of those notes. Even when I slow down and really concentrate on sticking to the pentatonic, I end up bending something to one of the missing notes anyway.

[Budda]

I bet you bend to "other" Notes too. The ones between the Frets, maybe?

[flatout9]

Originally Posted by monfoodoo

it was another way to run the fertboard and we would get to the minor scales later,

Hey Man, If you're going to be playing the FERTBOARD then this discussion needs to be completely disregarded. The FERTBOARD has more melodic companionship's then what he have room to discuss here. I will say you have a very advanced teacher. Be cool and keep that FERTBOARD rocking. I love that thang!!!!!

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Telenator

It's real important (in my opinion) to know where the minor pentatonic comes from. All too often it becomes the "go to" scale for wanking on just about anything with a rock or blues feel.

If you're soloing over the Am G F progression like Stairway to Heaven or All Along the Watchtower, you're going to have a problem with the E in the scale every time you hit the F chord. It's important to know when to include the F and when not to. A simple pent minor doesn't include the flat 6 therefore most people just force the E into play. Once you indentify it, you'll be amazed how many people just gloss over that little detail and wank along contently.

The pentatonic scales are very useful but shouldn't be the first thing you grab. The notes that are left out of the pent scales ar ethe ones that truly convey to cool emotions.

What's the problem? E is in an F scale. It's also in an A Natural Minor and an A Phrygian. I could see you wanting to skip it during the G, that's a matter of taste, but not necessity.

[brewwagon]

i love threads like this its how i learn from the help of others like you all that contribute and discuss here one not only needs desire as a student but also good information to build on

like that flatted 6th for example you'd have to know how to use it
http://www.fretjam.com/metal-guitar-scales.html

thanks
bw

[klasaine]

In regard to the above 'telenator' and 'stratavarious' posts ...

As SV says, it's not a problem to use E natural over the F chord in Stairway (Page's use of the F note is cool in that it takes a generally minor penta solo out of the standard mold and shows some depth beyond box pattern playing).
The real problems arise when players (rock guitarists in general unfortunately) pick the wrong minor scale for the particular minor chord or progression. For example ...
Hitting a F# in that prog (Am G F - Aeolian prog).
Or, the opposite ...
How many times have you heard that 'sour' F natural in "Oye Como Va" by a bad cover band or very young and inexperienced player? It's F# - because it's a Dorian progression - Am7 to D.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by klasaine

In regard to the above 'telenator' and 'stratavarious' posts ...

As SV says, it's not a problem to use E natural over the F chord in Stairway (Page's use of the F note is cool in that it takes a generally minor penta solo out of the standard mold and shows some depth beyond box pattern playing).
The real problems arise when players (rock guitarists in general unfortunately) pick the wrong minor scale for the particular minor chord or progression. For example ...
Hitting a F# in that prog (Am G F - Aeolian prog).
Or, the opposite ...
How many times have you heard that 'sour' F natural in "Oye Como Va" by a bad cover band or very young and inexperienced player? It's F# - because it's a Dorian progression - Am7 to D.

I see the F# in Oye Como Va over the D7, but there's no problem playing an F as a passing tone over the A min7. It's not a Modal tune, just a simple tune. You may play over each chord with scales or chord tones.

[klasaine]

True enough. I guess every time I hear somebody 'cheese' that tune it's F over the D7 - lol!

[Telenator]

I meant F#

Including the F or b6 make for some cool sounds.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

I'd agree that melodic minor is one of the most useful colors in music, and I certainly lean on it hard.

Played with different notes whether ascending or descending?

Or using the same notes?

Or does it depend on the situation?

Trying to learn how to best get this one under my fingers: whether to practice different ascending and descending patterns, or not, or both. thx

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Played with different notes whether ascending or descending?

Or using the same notes?

Or does it depend on the situation?

Trying to learn how to best get this one under my fingers: whether to practice different ascending and descending patterns, or not, or both. thx

I think they are talking about the same ascending and descending. I know Tim has waxed elegant about its various modes for uses other than over minor chords - the melodic minor who's root is a half step about the root of a dominant seventh chord has the notes of the altered dominant scale, ie Eb melodic minor = D altered dominant. The 4th (?, not taking time to figure it out) mode of melodic minor is a dominant seventh scale with a #11.

One poster a while back suggested the way to think of it is to just keep in mind that with minor scales, the 6th and 7th scale degrees are variable, and let your ear guide you.