minor scale-which one

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

One poster a while back suggested the way to think of it is to just keep in mind that with minor scales, the 6th and 7th scale degrees are variable, and let your ear guide you.

Yes, over a straightforward minor chord the 6th and 7th nodes in the scale can be flexible -- why else would there be so many scales in common use (dorian, natural minor (=aeolian), harmonic minor, melodic minor) that only differ in their choice of the 6th and 7th?

Example: the 6th over a minor in a ii-V-I (say Dmi7-G7-Cmaj7). If I think about it, I sometimes merely think of the sixth as a neighbour note. For example, in this fragment of a line:

A B? A F E D

I'd prefer: A Bb A F E D

but in this line:

C B? C A F E D

I'd prefer C B C A F E D

But there's nothing wrong with using both notes in the same line:

C B C Bb A F E D

That's why I said imagine a "full house" scale with both kinds of 6ths and 7ths.

But then these are "lines" not "scales". In the end, if your instructor wants you to practice scales, you'll probably play all the types of minor scales

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Played with different notes whether ascending or descending?

Or using the same notes?

Or does it depend on the situation?

Trying to learn how to best get this one under my fingers: whether to practice different ascending and descending patterns, or not, or both. thx

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

I think they are talking about the same ascending and descending.

What Leon said.

Mickey, since you've asked, I'm sure that you're aware that the 'traditional' melodic minor scale has a descending form of the natural/aeolian/"pure" (whatever!) scale. I did learn that and used it in some classical pieces early on, but I'm really not very well versed in it (that approach just sort of got quickly tossed for most of my practical applications). I'm sure that Larry F, Ken, strat a various, and others could offer vastly more insight than I in this regard.

So yeah, I'm generally speaking to the so-called "jazz melodic minor" scale (too many names for scales!), which uses the same form ascending and descending (1 - 2/9 - b3 - 4/11 - 5 - 6/13 - 7 - 8).

And Leon is correct about the mixolydian mode with a #11 being the fourth mode of the jazz melodic minor. In the spirit of scales having too many names, it's sometimes referred to as lydian b7, lydian dominant, or overtone dominant. I originally learned it as a cool sound that happens when one plays a melodic minor scale a 5th above the root of a dominant chord (and not so much over a V7 altered chord - melodic minor up a half step is a better choice here).

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

That's why I said imagine a "full house" scale with both kinds of 6ths and 7ths.

But then these are "lines" not "scales". In the end, if your instructor wants you to practice scales, you'll probably play all the types of minor scales

Quote of the week right there!

Whatever shall we call it if it contains 'all of the above'?! How about chromatic, or better yet, as you said, "a line". Yeah, it's good to know the functions and math of the various scales, modes, and whatnots. Ultimately though, they're like serving suggestions on a TV dinner carton, or the road map of a basic chord chart. A recipe might specifically call for paprika, but one might instead prefer oregano. As long as one is aware of the differences, choice (or combination thereof) is a matter of taste.

[monfoodoo]

So the minor scale is only taking the 5 positions of the major scale and move it all up a whole step.How simple is that.

[jazztele]

monfoodoo...no, not even close!

to everyone who's learning this stuff, please learn it and don't look for shortcuts--this is how people get seriously messed up and end up frustrated with music theory, when it isn't that hard if done correctly.

[Chris S.]

Try thinking of it this way:

1) Take a major scale and flat the 3rd degree. You now have the "jazz minor" or "real melodic minor" (aka "ascending melodic minor" or just "melodic minor").

2) Now flat the 6th degree. That gives you a harmonic minor scale.

3) Now flat the 7th degree. That gives you a natural minor, also known as Aeolian mode.

4) Now raise the 6th degree. That gives you the Dorian mode.

If you base your thinking on modifications to the major scale (which you already know), the various minors become a lot clearer. Hope it helps, CS :-)

[monfoodoo]

What minor fingerings are these images?

[klasaine]

1) Aeolian or 'natural' minor.
2) Nothing at all. It's 'melodic minor' up through the 3rd string. Then ... ?

[jazztele]

figure 1 is G aeolian, or G "natural minor"

figure 2 is a big 'ol mess. It's not one scale. The first octave is melodic minor, if we're starting with the root...




had to edit: i originally said harmonic minor (dummy)--for some reason i decided to write down note names to analyze since it looked weird, and doing it in the key of C, for some reason i wrote Eb...but i maintain--it's a big 'ol mess...did you get that from a book or website? they should shut those folks down for trying to confuse you!

[monfoodoo]

The first image is what i,ve been playing.the second i ran across on some instructional site.So,the next pattern(mode) that fits would continue at A#,which would be "Ionian" form.I made a mistake at saying "So the minor scale is only taking the 5 positions of the major scale and move it all up a whole step",sorry bout that.

[jazztele]

that second diagram is crap and gibberish. i'm sorry to be so harsh, but the amount of misinformation on the web about music theory really pisses me off. any ass with a guitar and a little bandwith can say he's a teacher, and it allow a lot of folks to get confused and frustrated. i'd stay away from that site if i were you--looks like you were on the right track yourself.

stick with what you're doing, i think you'll do better. look at what the notes are in that natural minor scale, don't just think of it as a "shape." that'll allow you to find other positions...you're on the right track.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by monfoodoo

What minor fingerings are these images?

The second diagram represents The North Georgia Redneck Minor Scale. It's supposed to work over an R# demented chord, but only in little bitty podunk bars. I've tried to use it, but can't find any practical applications for it.

But yeah, it's utter nonsense, forget that diagram and move on.

[BigDaddyLH]

Actually, I think it's a very rude word, in Braille.

[monfoodoo]

I just got home from work and had a chance to play that second image.All i can say is "What in the h-ll is that?

[Budda]

Well, that's the Half-Demented Scale. Often used as a Sub for the Mixalottanotes Scale, over the ¿۞§¶‛ Chord, when playing in the Flailabout Style. It's very common in Deathcore Non-Magnetic Metal.

Crack a book once in awhile, guys! Sheesh.........

[monfoodoo]

I found where i got that second image from,it's
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...-a-guitar.html

[jazztele]

wow...a big company, the "dummies" one. And just plain wrong.

[klasaine]

Wow!
That's a huge gaff from an allegedly reputable company. Especially because it's directed at beginners or theory novices who won't realize the one fret error and just go "yeah, scales suck" .... and they do when they're written like this.

I don't really teach much and when I do it's not specifically guitar - it's ensemble playing and improv. I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell a kid that he or she needs a new teacher or to burn a particular book or forget about a particular web site.

[BigDaddyLH]

No dig against the original poster, but I'm continually amazed at people who will not believe people with a wealth of experience on a subject but will blindly follow something they read on a random web page.

[microphonic squeal]

Yngwie Malmsteen made a career out of harmonic minor

[anacephalic]

Sorry for the tangent but a good web source for is mark sabatella's site especially his jazz primer http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/. For beginners to intermediate i strongly recommend it. the primer is a free down load. His functional harmony book you have to buy but it has a bunch of usefull stuff in it as to how chords work within a song structure and why certain subs work.

The best theory book i have yet to read in terms of applicability and clarity is the Jazz theory book by Mark Lavine. I've been using that book to try and sort out the Jazz minor (ascending melodic minor) modes and their applicability.

I hae nothing to do with either of those guys, their work just helped me out a lot. end tangent

Big Daddy has hit on the key to the minor scales a couple of times above when he pointed out the scale/chord relationship, though the discussion above about the D-7, G7, C maj7 is actually address minor modes of major scale harmony and not pure minor scales that have their own modes. Not being critical, just pointing out the difference between minor modes and minor scales.

Maybe i'm just dense but the minor harmony and mode thing is nowhere as easy to me as maj scale harmony. The minor modes have dissonances that don't fit with the traditional blues rock tonality I grew up with and wrapping my ears around those sounds is taking time. In addition those scales seem to have less tendency for "umbrella" aplication over a bunch of chords like the dorian or mixolydian maj scale modes allow. They are way more specific-chord focused because of those dissonances so there is more to minor than just grabbing one of the scales and running with it. if i'm missing something and some one can lead me to the mountain lead on, i'll be right there to hear the truth.

Since modes of both maj and min scales fit with a chord corrosponding to the harmonization of the scale from a given starting point a good starting point for improv is forget about the scales and work on nailing arpegios and chord tones for a given chord and using them for an anchor point. Use your ear to guide the selection of passing tones and the correct scale usually shows up by default most of the time.

While the jazzers lean towards the melodic minor i've been told a lot of the shredders lean to harmonic minor. Ingvae Malmsteen, or however you spell it, is supposed to be a fan of harmonic minor.

[BigDaddyLH]

This may be a bit of a digression, too, but since there's been several mentions of modes here, like dorian, phrygian, aeolian...

It's good to be able to "hear" a mode, but the following doesn't work:

Play a C major scale up and down a few times:

C D E F G A B C B A G F E D C ...

That "primes" your ears. Now try to "change" the mode by playing another mode with no accidentals, like E phrygian:

E F G A B C D E D C B A G F E ...

That still "sounds like C" to me, just C major started on another note. It doesn't sound dark and minor like phrygian is supposed to.

The trick to hearing the mode is to keep the same pedal, or tonic centre note. So play E major up and down a few times then switch to E phygian:

E F# G# A B C# D# E D# C# B A G# F# E ...
(switch)
E F G A B C D E D C B A G F E ...

It helps to play these scales say starting on an E other than the open 6th string, but playing that bass note, too, and letting it ring out. Now you should be able to hear the dark, minor character of phrygian.

[warmingtone]

Well...i think the answer is that there are a multiple number of minor scales with different sounds and applications (with the common denominator being the minor third)...that's why i love them!

BigDaddyLH's advice is very important when getting to really hear "modes" (which of course have the same interval set as the major scale, but in a different order) but any scale really, the "major scale" is the "slide rule" for scales and chord construction...so you really do need to compare a minor scale with the major in the same key.

...

Also important is to work your way to hearing scales and keys and chords, everything as "music" or "sounds" over positions and patterns. Sounds form patterns on the guitar for sure, but you have to associate these things with the sound and that the sounds exist independent of the particular pattern grids and such. That can take time of course but one does need to "hear" what you are playing over "seeing" it as a visual thing.

...

Maybe i'm just dense but the minor harmony and mode thing is nowhere as easy to me as maj scale harmony. The minor modes have dissonances that don't fit with the traditional blues rock tonality I grew up with and wrapping my ears around those sounds is taking time. In addition those scales seem to have less tendency for "umbrella" aplication over a bunch of chords like the dorian or mixolydian maj scale modes allow. They are way more specific-chord focused because of those dissonances so there is more to minor than just grabbing one of the scales and running with it. if i'm missing something and some one can lead me to the mountain lead on, i'll be right there to hear the truth.

This is an interesting point. What one likes and hears and plays can vary a lot. On this forum I have noticed a distinct hardcore 'chord by chord' approach associated with jazz, while my traditions and 'ear' favours the more 'key centred' sounds of blues, pop, rock, etc which uses a single tonality. Both have their uses and sounds and ideally one should meet somewhere in the middle perhaps.

Many of the minor scales have a tendency to have specialist uses in the chord by chord approach and can find their way well into blues in specialist applications. A player like Robben Ford can include some cool 'altered dominant' sounds using minor scales in the blues context and with a generally 'overall tonality' approach, again, meeting in the middle between an overall tonal environment with the more specialist approach of playing 'off the harmony'.

There are many blues greats that have favoured minor keys but these artists do tend to use a more modal sensibility over the chord by chord thing.

...

But, variety is the spice of life, that's why i like minor sounds so much, so many to choose from. Really, there is no "one" minor scale to learn. If starting relatively from scratch. perhaps taking the minor pentatonic as the basis and add in the different additional notes to get a feel for those characters:

in A minor; to the Am minor pentatonic A,C,D,E,G, (A)
add B and F for Aeolian (natural minor);
add B and F# for Dorian:
add B and F# plus 'raise the seventh' to G# (the dorian #7 idea) for melodic minor. (or flatten the 3rd of a major scale);
add B and F plus raise the #7 for the harmonic minor
add Bb and F for a phrigian minor mode (often sounds gypsy or arabic)

This kind of approach can be useful to get a feel for the sounds and how changing a note can make a dramatic effect on the flavour and use...the difference between the natural minor and the more exotic phrygian sound really is only that lowered 2nd for instance.

...

But along with these is the need to play some minor chord sequences and see what minor scales work for different applications in an overall minor tonality. Different progressions and melodies have different applications.

Also, some of the minor tunes mix things up a bit, look at a tune like "Greensleeves" that does have a strong melodic minor sound to it (something which has perhaps become a more 'specialist' scale)...in Am using both the G and G# in a very natural way melodically. So in addition to harmonic considerations are melodic impulses as well. This in some ways explains the idea of 'ascending and decending' concepts, but largely in western music these are constructs so I wouldn't get too confused with these ideas and terms.

...

For a more exotic approach, a tune like 'miserlou' might open doors (or at least food for thought) to the more exotic flavours and ways of looking at minor and major scales. In E, the note set (an pretty much the opening melody) is E,F,G#,A,B,C,D#,(E)...an unusual scale, it has two m3rd leaps in it and is a "major scale" in that it has the major 3rd (g#).

While a "major scale" it shares much in common and feel to the harmonic minor...one might easily consider Miserlou's 'tonal environment' to be a kind of harmonic minor with a raised 3rd. While such sounds are more exotic to our ears, they can work in such a tune and show that the major scale can (if very infrequently) be manipulated in much the same ways as the very many minor scales can be. There can be just as many potential 'major scales' but perhaps we are so accustomed to the sound of 'major' that alterations can sound "wrong" to western ears (at best 'exotic'), but modes like mixolydian can be accepted readily.

Minor tonalities seemed to have remained more free of this 'sense of wrongness' found in major tonalities (although we seem to be able to accept and love the sound of something as exotic as a minor mode over a major progression as in the blues!) and so there is more flavours that are acceptable perhaps.

The answer really is that there is no "one minor scale" you should know, but that if you are familiar with how scales work, and you are familiar with the minor pentatonic and major scales...you have all the materials necessary to access them all. If one has the mind too...the same can be said for any scale, major or minor!

[Valvey]

I thought I would add the "bebop melodic minor scale," which is the melodic minor with a chromatic note added between the 5th and 6th. This sounds good over min6 chords because the accents generally fall on the notes of that chord. In "Lullaby of Birdland"---

Fm6____________ G7b9________C7b9
----------------------|-------------------------------------------
-------------------5-|6--8--9--6----9--8---------------------------------
------------5-6-7---|-------------7---------------------------------
----5-6-8-----------|--------------------------------------------
--8------------------|--------------------------------------------
---------------------|--------------------------------------------