Weird

[GitHead]

I was messin around jammin to a dm7b5 - G7b6b9 - cm trying to use two modes of the altered scale. I was geting nowhere. I figured out the patterns so they would fall into the same 4-6 fret range but all I could seem to play was jibberish. I was just about to set myself on fire and curse my very existence when, by a miraculous spark on inspiration, I tried it in another position and all of a sudden walla! I could play musical phrases. Now I can put away the lighter fluid.

[jazztele]

hmmm? modes of the altered scale? the altered scale is a mode of the melodic minor (the seventh mode, when shooting for this sound, i'll often think MM up a half step)....

and i'd name that dominant chord a G7#5b9. you're getting at an altered sound there, and you don't want to let on that there could be a perfect fifth in that chord...

you could use the sixth mode of MM over the half diminished chord (hints at a m7b5 chord with an added ninth) so F melodic over the D half diminished...relating things back to the altered scale here seems to be a bit confusing and unecessary step.

[GitHead]

Thanks Jazz! I'll try analyzing it from that perspective. I was nosing through a book that was touting the miraculous Altered scale which is what launched me on this journey. I'm trying to get my head around the Jazz language.

[jazztele]

you're welcome.

the melodic minor is a great scale (or jazz minor--we're talking the kind that's the same up and down, not like the term "melodic minor" is used in a classical context)

while there's definitely a time and place for modes, when starting out with this stuff, you get yourself into a lot of memorization if you start to base things off modes of the melodic minor, which has some modes that are just more usable than others...

the melodic minor itself works over a min/maj7 chord.

the fourth mode, lydian dominant, is great over 7b5 or 7#11 chords. but i tend to relate that one back to the lydian mode (the one from the good old major scale), and just think "with a flat seventh." I think this comes from the fact that while i have studied and use the melodic minor, in a pinch i'm still more comfortable with my major scale and major scale modes. heck, it's probably even more realistic to say i'm thinking arpeggios over these chords--YMMV.

and of course, the altered scale, also known as "super locrian" which works over altered chords (meaning the fifth and ninth are altered some way, and the fifth and ninth ARE NOT appearing in the chord unaltered.) here, i often just think "melodic minor up a half step" (i.e, Ab melodic minor over that G7alt chord in your example)

[BigDaddyLH]

The minor 2.5.1 is more flexible than a major 2.5.1. For Dmin7b5.G7#5b9.CMin you could go the simplest route (handy when chords are going past at a quick clip): blow C harmonic minor over the whole shabang:

Dmin7b5 : D Eb F G Ab B C
G7#5b9 : G Ab B C D Eb F
Cmin : C D Eb F G Ab B

You can add Bb to the mix - sounds good against all three chords and gets rid of the "Turkish Bazaar" sound of the augmented second Ab->B.

OR: you could play the altered scale over G7#5b9:

G7#5b9 : G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F

This sounds better to my ear because the Cb and Db work better against the G7#5b9 than the C and D.

OR: against the Dmin7b5, the classic scale is D Locrian:

Dmin7b5 : D Eb F G Ab Bb C

Very similar to C harmonic minor, eh?

OR: the mode of F melodic minor as jazztele mentioned:

Dmin7b5 : D E F G Ab Bb C

(That Eb note wasn't so hot against the Dmin7b5 was it?)

OR: against the Cmin you can play any C minor scale (natural, harmonic, melodic). I think of it as a Full House:

Cmin: C D Eb F G Ab A Bb B C.

Note that you can play:
Dmin7b5 : F melodic minor
G7#5b9 : Ab medodic minor
Cmin : C melodic minor

That's a lot of minor!

[GitHead]

That is a lot of minor....and a lot to think about. Thanks Big, thanks Jazz!

[Valvey]

I use this melodic minor "moveable chunk" a lot in minor ii V I progressions like F#min7b5|Balt| Emin--

Here's a voicing of F#min7b5:

--5------
--5-------
--5-------
--4------
---------
---------
The scale that fits with this is A melodic minor. Filling in the scale notes within easy reach of the chord:

----------------------------------------------(4)-- 5---(7)
-------------------------------------5---(7)---------------
-------------------(4)---5---(7)--------------------------
--4---(6)---(7)--------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------

Now to play over the V chord you just move this whole structure up a minor third. The chord shape is now playing a B7#5b9, which will serve as Balt. The scale is now C melodic minor, which is exactly the scale you should play over Balt.

To play over the I chord, move the whole structure up again, this time a major 3rd. Now the chord shape is playing an Em9, and the scale is E melodic minor.

Once you have the basic chunk shape down it's easy to string together arpeggiated and scale lines through these changes. It's a nice idea for intros in minor keys.

[klasaine]

+1 on what BigDaddyLH and JazzTele say.

I'll add that as a 'personal' favorite harmonic color I like to play Dorian on the C-7, providing that the final chord is truly a C-7, C-9, C-6 or C-13.

Dm7b5 and G7alt. - C Harm.Min.
Cm7 - C Dorian
(Very Clifford Brown and Lee Morgan - as well as a tonal staple of the later latin/salsa piano players.)

*minor ii - V's have a ton of options for blowing over.
Dm7b5 - F minor penta
G7 alt. - Bb minor penta
Cm7 - C minor penta