If you're not getting enough out of pentatonic...

[brokenjoe]

.... you might want to reconsider how you're going about it!

I was listening closely to some Jimi Hendrix for the first time in a while the other day, and what struck me was just how much feeling he was able to wring out of simple pentatonic riffs.

Using a combination of unusual positioning, skipping strings, and phrasing, he milked those five notes for everything they're worth.

Listening to the intro to 'All Along the Watchtower', and a big part of all of the other guitar parts on that song, really reminded me of just what can be done with seemingly so little.

Sure, there are other notes in the solo that fall outside pentatonic, but bending, judicious use of vibrato, and other little effects, he certainly created a masterpiece.

I post this because I've heard a few folks here say that they were 'stuck in pentatonic jail.'

Sometimes, jail isn't such a bad place to be!

[Cheesehead]

Ive been learning Watchtower and I thought the same thing. He plays absolutely beautiful solos on that song. He also does remarkable things in pentatonic on his bluesier songs. Listen to any version of Red House. Amazing.

Same thing with Clapton. I've been learning a few of his solos lately - Crossroads, Badge, White Room, Born Under a Bad Sign, While My Guitar Gently Weeps. I love how he goes effortlessly between major and minor. His stuff is just lyrical.

[smoke]

If you think Hendrix gets a lot of mileage, check out players like Woody Shaw, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, etc. There is nothing in the world wrong with basing your linear concept on the pentatonic scale. There is much beauty in it with dedicated work/study.

[warmingtone]

Oh...I agree, which may surprise some given some of my posts and knowledge outside the "boxes"...

"pentatonic scales" of one kind or another make up the backbone of melodic material across the board and across cultures. If you look at most stock melodies they have a tendancy to use predominantly 5 notes. This is not surprising given that a "diatonic" western scale only has 2 more, or 7 notes and they are not always used or some are infrequent or have special 'functions' (like the 7-3, 4-3 resolutions, leading tones, etc). But if you really study melodies you will see that in say a "major" scale tune, some notes are infrequently used if at all out of those seven and by far the notes used tend to be primarily "pentatonic".

And, there's a matter of appropriateness I suppose, it depends on what you are trying to play and what is being used to "express" in say a solo, note choice is only one of so many other factors and arguably not the most important consideration. If one is playing over only 3 chords and with all the genre specific moves of say a blues, you won't make a better solo or be a better player because you can squeeze in a few unusual notes...quite likely a worse one!

...

One might want to consider the fabulous solo in 'All Right Now' by Free with the wonderful late Kossoff with his tremendous vibrato...not strictly "pentatonic" as most would know it, but the power is in the phrasing, rhythm, melodic contour and especially that thick sound, vibrato and conviction and innate "sense".

Hendrix is another example, not always strictly Pentatonic, but mostly in a lot of his solo work. But then consider his solo on "Wind Cry's Mary". One marvels that Jimi died at the age of 27 and with plenty of distractions and hard work on the road to slow him down...what he would have sounded like at 47 is hard to tell, but it is quite likely that even then I suspect that the pentatonic things would likely be featured heavily.

But...you know, Hendrix was a dark horse in many respects, it would be a mistake to look at his blues and extended live solos and stuff and think that was all that he was capable of. Look at the chord progressions of songs like 'angel' or even 'little wing' or his capacity to decorate the chords with all those many hammer-ons and such in those styles. In some ways he may even been a prisoner of his times (and possibly lifestyle), that pentatonic sound was a large part of what was expected at that time.

...

The "Pentatonic Rut" is experienced when people are limited in their ideas or don't know enough to make a decision with note choices. Jimi and others were not playing mostly pentatonics because that was all that they knew or could imagine, but that is what they "heard" and felt was most appropriate.

In the solo's of "watchtower" I think 'more notes' (and it is only a simple 3 chord repeating progression after all) would likely take away from the intention that is clear and so effectively done. He made a series of almost "composed" little solos that led from one to another that displayed different textures of sounds...classic hendrix-isms like the scratchy 'rhythm solo' (much of which is no notes at all!) the delayed 12 string slide solo, the wah solo, and more.

The thing that limits people then with pentatonics is that they don't have the other skills besides note choice to apply whatever notes they use in such imaginative ways to keep them interesting.

There is a lot you can do with pentatonics, you can mix major and minor as mentioned which gives you access right there to a palate of 8 out of 12 notes right there. But you can use similar principles to make for a fully chromatic system if you wanted to go that way.

There are "limitations" though and most of us will come across that. The minor pentatonic thing that many guitar players stop at using can be a limiting factor if that is all that you have given yourself to work with. I don't think that it would be fair to think that this is all that a Hendrix had at his disposal, or would have if he had lived longer for instance.

Another thing that always marvels me about these kinds of players, they did have grander plans and ideals beyond the "pop musician/guitar god" status put upon them. Hendrix died just before a project with Miles Davis for instance and some of his material was quite adventurous in many ways. I've been playing some Pete Townsend again lately and it is clear in songs like "pinball wizard" that he had a big vision in these kinds of works...these guys were not just banging out pentatonics and breaking or burning instruments even at their young age and with all the pressures on them to be "pop stars" and road warriors. A lot were 'frustrated' too and were reaching for more.

...

Anyway, there is heaps that can be done with pentatonics, but note choice is only one small aspect to consider. It seems that many do not make the "choice" because that is all they know, or perhaps don't focus on the other elements that make music come alive regardless of the notes chosen.

I feel that with the players of this era, the late sixties and very early seventies; your Pages, Becks, Claptons and hendrix's some obligation to look at their bigger visions and the full scope of what they were trying to do, look at their youth...and take that kind of thing further. That's one of the things that I love about someone like Jeff Beck in that he survived to continue to explore things and build on these "pentatonic roots" but go further. As a player I kind of feel the need to not base myself on a particular player's style or techniques but to learn from them, that era was after all 40 years ago or so now, even if it was the music of my childhood...time moves on and as a player I struggle to do so as well.

So, pentatonics can always sound good and be the most appropriate, but the secret to using them effectively (or any palate of note choices, it affects your trad be-bop inspired jazzers just as much) can be seen in the broader aspects that all these player's displayed (you see a lot of admiration for people like Wes Montgomery here for instance, besides his octaves and phrasing and note choices, to me the 'genius' was that he not only played it, but that he "invented" that personal sound). It makes you wonder why this kind of flowering of ideas and innovation seemed to slow or stop in the decades since, there are so much great music to be inspired by and a lot more guitar players in the world these days, a huge amount of accessible information...but in the end the focus still tends to come back to this 'note choice' thing.

[jason spell]

Eric Johnson and Shawn Lane have done some sickeningly creative playing with the pentatonic scale.

[brokenjoe]

Great post Warmingtone.

It's funny how we visualize these things. I've always considered myself to be either a major or minor pentatonic player -everything else is just extensions of that.

What I mean is, I'll get into modes/chromaticism/etc, but in my mind it all seems to grow out of the Big Five Notes. It's fun to toy with flatted fifths, sharp sevenths, flatted ninths and stuff, but generally speaking it's how the passage or phrase is resolved.

I fully agree with you about your ideas of how the major scale is used in our culture. All notes are NOT created equal!

[Middleman]

I have found through the years that if you stay practiced enough, you can move outside thinking about the patterns and you can get to a point where you are thinking about the melody and going where it leads you. That is something that has developed later in my guitar experience and it seems some of the really great guitar players have that gift early on. The scale framework becomes secondary to the musical experience you are immediately involved in and you are chasing the next note/notes. It's more of an adrenalin experience which requires hearing and reacting closely tied. Also it's more of a feel type playing then patterned approach.

[davie blue]

I've felt "trapped" in the pentatonic scale before, and determined to work my way "out of jail." But I think it all comes down to perspective - although I've learned to throw in a few extra notes and "colors" here and there, I still rely heavily on pentatonics. What's helped me is breaking out of the 5 boxes and moving vertically up and down the neck more.

After jamming with a good friend of mine, I went back to working on moving triads up and down, and then seeing how they fit into the pentatonic positions I know so well. This has helped me incorporate a vertical perspective so I'm not thinking horizontally all the time.

Still working on thinking melodies instead of patterns though. A good goal to be sure!

[Larry F]

Yes, so many of the greats used the minor pentatonic almost exclusively. Albert King, SRV, Freddie King, Otis Rush, Luther Allison, Albert Collins + the major third. I'm trying to improve as a blues player. I notice the my fingers have certain reflexes that, of course, produce certain notes. My method for improving is finding and practicing new reflexes. An early example for me is the gesture (long story, just let me use the term) that starts by playing the first note twice. Freddie King does that all the time. Another method is to get used to the idea of skipping over a note in the minor pentatonic. For example: C Bb F Eb Eb (descending in C). I'm finding that when other notes are used, they are subject to very specific uses. For example, the note A is rarely followed by Bb (still in C). Similarly, D is rarely followed by Eb. If you play those patterns, it makes you sound like a scale player. Then rhythm. Instead of straight 16ths, try 8 16, 16, 8, 16, 16, or 16, 16, 8, 16, 16, 8. In triplets try:
8 16 16 8, 8 16 16 8.

A good bend is worth its weight in gold. If you can grab that position, squeeze that string up strongly, so that it rings clearly on it way up, then put a nice, soulful vibrato on it.

I find that sticking to the minor pentatonic forces me to find interesting, expressive things. I often feel like it is cheating to use D A E F# B (in the C blues again) because they often sound so contrived. Nothing against BB or T-Bone. They are two of the only players who really own those extra color notes.

I am in complete agreement with those who feel the minor pentatonic is a rich treasure trove of ideas and emotions. The solution to a minor pentatonic wanker is, in my book, not to teach him the other notes, but to get him to do those things inside the minor pent.

[klasaine]

Well you certainly won't get any argument from me on how expressive and useful the straight minor penta is.
There was a great 'other uses of the mp scale' thread but the search function isn't working too good right now.

[redstringuitar]

Originally Posted by Middleman

I have found through the years that if you stay practiced enough, you can move outside thinking about the patterns and you can get to a point where you are thinking about the melody and going where it leads you. That is something that has developed later in my guitar experience and it seems some of the really great guitar players have that gift early on. The scale framework becomes secondary to the musical experience you are immediately involved in and you are chasing the next note/notes. It's more of an adrenalin experience which requires hearing and reacting closely tied. Also it's more of a feel type playing then patterned approach.

That's right, with practice you instinctively know where to go...add inspiration and energy and you really are cooking, it becomes almost vocal in it's immediacy and everything you do just "works". It's the best feeling in the world, being so in control of emphasis and timing allows you to play with such confidence that almost nothing is off limits.

I find that throwing in a little harmonic minor helps resolve, not too much though...it can get a bit "spicy"!

[Wally]

INteresting thread. Great post, warmingtone.
Warmingtone wrote: "But...you know, Hendrix was a dark horse in many respects, it would be a mistake to look at his blues and extended live solos and stuff and think that was all that he was capable of. Look at the chord progressions of songs like 'angel' or even 'little wing' or his capacity to decorate the chords with all those many hammer-ons and such in those styles. In some ways he may even been a prisoner of his times (and possibly lifestyle), that pentatonic sound was a large part of what was expected at that time."

Those chord formations, changes and hammer-ons are things for which HEndrix could thank one of his influences.....Curtis Mayfield. HEndrix brought a lot of the R&B thing into the rock world. After all, that is where he made is living before changing from a band member to a band leader and writer and then was discovered by Chas Chandler, taken to England and then allowed to burst upon the world.

[Larry F]

I'm becoming more convinced that in the C blues, the notes A and D are not additions, but replacements. It's interesting how relatively rare are the note successions D ↑ Eb, Eb ↓ D, A ↑ Bb, and Bb ↓ A. (I'm using the cool arrows suggested in another thread to show direction.) Using notes this way, you still have pentas:

C Eb F G Bb
C D F G Bb
C Eb F G A
C D F G A

One of the distinguishing features of the major and minor pentas is the absence of semitones. If you add a 6th note, it will be a semitone away from one of the other notes. Looking up sets of notes at: http://solomonsmusic.net/pcsets.htm, it looks like there are 65 different 5-note sets (not counting transposition and inversion), only three of which have no semitones. Of the 79 6-note sets, only 1 has no semitones.

The info in the table, by the way, is widely used by music theorists and composers. Yale Professor Allen Forte first compiled the list in his book, The Structure of Atonal Music in 1973, but the info has been applied in composition and analysis for much of the 20th century and later.

Now that I think about it, maybe his concept of the interval vector might be interesting from a chord standpoint. Any chord, or set in the table, has a network of intervals between all the notes. The interval vector is a list of numbers that show how many times an interval or its inverse appears in a set or chord. The interval vector has 6 digits. A major triad has an interval vector of 001110. A minor triad has the same interval vector since it is an inverse of the major triad. A major or minor pentatonic has an interval vector of 032140.

This might seem awfully far afield, but once you get past the technicalities, you can start seeing patterns. This stuff is studied in the spring semester of the sophomore year by music majors. It's useful for composers and for analyzing classical music after 1890. After that, many composers used pitch structures of greater variety than those found in major and minor keys. That's why a theorist in the early 70s would take the time to categorize these. Sorry again for the diversion.

[emu!]

Just a thought...

If you bend strings and/or add vibrato...you are no longer playing JUST pentatonic notes...you are adding in chromatic passing tones through the string bending and variations of the original pent note through the vibrato...right?

This is what makes the guitar a wonderful canvas...unlike most other instruments.

[bokeh]

has anyone mentioned jimi page yet? i just think he's a great example of sweet pentatonic action

[winny pooh]

Guys, we all know Hendrix sounds so great because its not about what scale you play its about phrasing and melody which is why JH and Gilmour are light years ahead of most musicians, regardless of their technical ability or knowledge.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by winny pooh

Guys, we all know Hendrix sounds so great because its not about what scale you play its about phrasing and melody which is why JH and Gilmour are light years ahead of most musicians, regardless of their technical ability or knowledge.

I agree 100% with what you say, except for one thing. If you are implying that using fewer notes than other players is equated with a lack of knowledge, I would disagree with that. It doesn't take that much more knowledge to play a dorian or mixolydian mode instead of a minor pentatonic scale. I know you are saying the opposite of this, but what I am disagreeing with is your supposition that other musicians seem to think this way. In my view, only high-school age guitarists might be the only ones who think this. Am I right? I don't know, but I think I am.

[redstringuitar]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I agree 100% with what you say, except for one thing. If you are implying that using fewer notes than other players is equated with a lack of knowledge, I would disagree with that. It doesn't take that much more knowledge to play a dorian or mixolydian mode instead of a minor pentatonic scale. I know you are saying the opposite of this, but what I am disagreeing with is your supposition that other musicians seem to think this way. In my view, only high-school age guitarists might be the only ones who think this. Am I right? I don't know, but I think I am.

Well I for one agree with you. It's all about leaving out the unnecessary, not playing right up to your limit.

[warmingtone]

Originally Posted by redstringuitar

Well I for one agree with you. It's all about leaving out the unnecessary, not playing right up to your limit.

True...phrasing and melodic ideas are of far more importance than note choice that gets so much attention. Look at any of the "greats" and that is aspects that strike you the most be it django, montogmery, hendrix, knophler...whoever.

And these guys will pick up what is necessary for what they are trying to do, the genre and the audience all play a part.

What i was originally suggesting with Hendrix was (and remember he died at on 27) that he was a bit of a prisoner of his times...blues rock psychedelic solos was what was expected and he expressed his frustrations. For what he was doing a lot primarily pentatonic choices was right. (It should be noted though that this is not just the minor pentatonic but a master of the major pentatonic as well, interesting interval design within them).

Someone like knophler (perhaps more "modal" in approach) keeps studying, citing the old mikey baker books at one time and applying those things in songs like "private investigations" or "fade to black". Regardless of note choice, the guitar or the 'tone', it's all very distinctive to that player. Hendrix too was learning and some of his song structures were great and quite innovative, you need to dig a little deeper with JH than his note choices to see the directions he was going in perhaps.

...

The interval vector has 6 digits. A major triad has an interval vector of 001110.

Not sure how these numbers express an interval set...sounds like you are working on an Emily (or emmy) program for the blues...http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle6884631.ece

Where you have semitones in a scale there is an effect of melodic dissonance, the pentatonic scales avoid this by moving primarily in steps. Usually we think of dissonance as in relation to harmony, with all the notes stacked together as in a chord, but melodic dissonance, notes spread over time as in a melody or an overall interval set (like the pentatonic scale)...by avoiding semitones, you avoid a lot of these "difficulties".

...

But there are limits depending on what your intentions are. In a lot of pop rock and country, pentatonics will get you through and your phrasing and melodic invention will be of more importance anyway...but there are times when you need to extend that vocabulary.

By far, most music played is key centered and not so much harmonically driven, so no matter what you play with in terms of note choice, the aspects of phrasing and melodic invention will be of far greater importance.

[brokenjoe]

Not sure if I agree with you about Hendrix. I used him as a reference point because when he stuck close to pentatonic, he REALLY worked it.

However, he pretty much KICKED down the doors when it came to adding 'unusual' notes.

Look at that funky flatted fifth riff in the intro to Purple Haze

All of the amazing chromaticism in Hey Baby (New Rising Sun)

And all kinds of other songs and licks I could reference........

[Tim Bowen]

As to milking pentatonic to death in the usual blues rock, guitaristic sort of way, listen to Johnny Winter in his prime. If I could play pentatonic over I-IV-V the way that Johnny Winter did between about '68 and '76, I doubt that I'd have useage for a #11 or parallel fourths and such. That guy destroyed with the pentatonic scale in the blues rock context.

[Cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

As to milking pentatonic to death in the usual blues rock, guitaristic sort of way, listen to Johnny Winter in his prime. If I could play pentatonic over I-IV-V the way that Johnny Winter did between about '68 and '76, I doubt that I'd have useage for a #11 or parallel fourths and such. That guy destroyed with the pentatonic scale in the blues rock context.

Johnny Winter absolutely kicks butt.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by warmingtone

Quote:
The interval vector has 6 digits. A major triad has an interval vector of 001110.
Not sure how these numbers express an interval set...sounds like you are working on an Emily (or emmy) program for the blues...http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle6884631.ece

I didn't know about Emily. It appears to be another computer-generated composition program by David Cope. He has been doing research in that area for many years.

The interval vector shows the number of times an interval or its inversion is used in a set. The 6 places are, from left to right: +/- 1 semitone (minor second, major seventh, and compounds), +/- 2 semitones (major second, minor seventh, and compounds), 3 semitones, 4 semitones, 5 semitones, 6 semitones.

For the major/minor pentatonic, the interval vector is 032140. This shows the number of times the following intervals occur:

0 semitones
3 instances of +/- 2 semitones (major second/minor seventh)
2 instances of +/- 3 semitones (minor third/major sixth)
1 instance of +/- 4 semitones (major third/minor sixth)
4 instances of +/- 5 semitones (perfect fourth/perfect fifth)
0 tritones

There are many ways to interpret this, depending on what you want to know about. A few things stick out. There are no semitones or tritones (of course, we all know that). The 4 fourths tell us we can arrange the C minor pentatonic as ascending 5ths: Eb Bb F C G. Anyway, just another way of thinking about music. It doesn't seem to be that useful for blues, unless there is another kind of music out there that as a very different sound, but the same interval vector. That info would send a music analyst to work.

The interval vector for a major/minor triad is 001110. This is a subset of the blues interval vector, suggesting that there is 1 and only 1 embedded major triad (Eb major) and 1 and only 1 embedded minor triad (C minor). Really, this stuff is more useful for analysis than composition.

[Middleman]

Which leads one to conclude that although music is math, math is not necessarily musical.

[warmingtone]

Thanks Larry...yes, well, perhaps drifting too far from this topic...interesting, not sure how useful if it equates a minor to major chord, but certainly useful in looking at the properties of a note set like the pentatonic scale i can see.

Although math may not be musical, i'd agree, emily is a fascinating and very convincing program...it works be statstical analysis, a bit like an improvising band in the box...so to do what it does, it takes a huge input from a historical composer say, and then extrapolates more in a similar vein, but with extremely fine definitions. Things from dynamics and form to melodic contours and direction, etc...so technically it can "compose" and the results can be stunning. Of course, it has been applied exclusively as far as I know to classical music, but it could be applied just as easily to music like blues, jazz or anything else with sufficient data.

Such things are not that different from what we train ourselves to do when we dig deep into any players style and emulate it. But it does also highlight the genius of players like JH that can take material and turn it into something new and unexpected...that is not something that Emily can do really, it creates new but only within the parameters of what has come before.

Anyway...back to pentatonics...it would be interesting to know if this is a largely guitaristic note choice or a universal affliction.

[Larry F]

Here's an example of how a straight descending minor pent can be a great ending. Except for the starting bend, the notes just go down the scale over the course of two octaves, with no leaps or change of direction. The big adjustment is the addition of some pairs of 16th-notes. The lick is from the ending of SRV's "So Excited" from Live at the Macambo. Some of the notes aren't his because I can rarely stick with someone else's idea.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-...o-excited.html