self-taught? really?

[weelie]

I think the problem is people put so much emphasis on somebody being self-taught. Who cares? Everybody has to put in the hours to learn. You need some input form others in the process. I guess the pride here is that nobody's guiding you? Why is non-guidance so high on street-cred? You learn by copying, or at least I do, and if I copied a teacher or a another player who was not officially a teacher, or a record, what's the difference?! I don't get it. Nobody lives in a vacuum, we all learned from somebody, in some way.

[JayFreddy]

I started to post in this thread yesterday, then thought better of it...

FYI, I use smilies to show when I'm kidding and/or not completely serious. People who actually know me understand that I'm generally a pretty silly person, and that I strive to keep a sense of humor. I don't always succeed, but if you don't like my sense of humor, then...

There is a fine line between formal lessons and informal lessons. Some of my best teachers have been of the informal kind. I've had good formal teachers too, as well as a bunch of mediocre ones. I have also never met anyone who regretted learning music fundamentals, theory, reading, or harmony.

Muddy Waters learned from Son House. I doubt they ever did formal lessons in the same sense that suburban soccer moms/dads think of lessons, but it's pretty well accepted that Muddy Waters was a student of Son House, and learned a lot from Son House, both directly and indirectly. In the same way, Johnny Winter was a student of Muddy Waters.

On the other hand, Steve Vai and Kirk Hammett both took lessons from Joe Satriani, probably more along the lines of what most people think of as formal lessons. It didn't seem to hold either Steve or Kirk back.

If someone is so insecure about themselves that they can't give credit to those who came before them and either paved the way, showed them the way, or actually walked with them part of the way, it's no big deal to me. My experience is that the best players will never hesitate to tell you who they learned from, formal, informal, or otherwise.

Discovering the wheel is not that same as going to the library and checking out a book about wheels.

[redstringuitar]

Someone who starts a successful business with £50 does so using different resources than someone who does so with a large inheritance and arguably deserves more credit for personal achievement.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by redstringuitar

Someone who starts a successful business with £50 does so using different resources than someone who does so with a large inheritance and arguably deserves more credit for personal achievement.

You have a point. Players who stick to a rigid "self-taught" definition do seem to be implying that they somehow deserve more credit. That's probably not always the case, and I don't think it's worth arguing about, but that might be part of why it rubs some people the wrong way.

[Kornelius]

I am self taught, and maybe (or not) that's why i'm not a very good player and that my progress have been slow. My son is learning in a music school wiz a teacher and he's learning much faster then i did. But maybe when you're selftaugh you are more openminded and "original" in your practice 'cos nobody has never show you how to do it.

[Charlesinator]

Someone who starts a successful business with £50 does so using different resources than someone who does so with a large inheritance and arguably deserves more credit for personal achievement.

Why??? Isn't the success of the business all that matters? I assume you are linking formal training with inheritance, then ... as a consumer of the product of this imaginary sucessful business would you be more inclined to buy from ... the self started business or the business that came from a large inheritance/formal training. The falacy of your statement is that you assume the self taught musician can litterally cover all the bases that a formally trained musician can. If a self taught musician can read music, play a large variety of styles, understand theory, lead other musicians, has the technique, etc., etc., etc., that a formally trained musician can then great. This of course doesn't make him a better musician. It only makes hime the same with the same comparable talents. What the majority of the supposed "self-taught" musicians mean is that they don't know anything about music just that they can run a minor pentatonic scale fairly well. Of course being self-taught they wouldn't know it's a minor pentatonic. Also if someone learns from books, the countless videos on youtube, certainly from the forum here from both the formally trained and self taught, hell from listening to a particular artist then your self taught credentials are a little less than the someone who learned in a vacum. So ... like any other job applicant you will or should be judged on what you actually do know, your experience and your ability which all should be at least a little better by having received some formal training. I mean would you hire someone for anything without some formal training over someone with??? It certainly doesn't make the person better qualified. Jeezzzzzzzzz!!!!

[redstringuitar]

Originally Posted by Charlesinator

Why??? Isn't the success of the business all that matters? I assume you are linking formal training with inheritance, then ... as a consumer of the product of this imaginary sucessful business would you be more inclined to buy from ... the self started business or the business that came from a large inheritance/formal training. The falacy of your statement is that you assume the self taught musician can litterally cover all the bases that a formally trained musician can. If a self taught musician can read music, play a large variety of styles, understand theory, lead other musicians, has the technique, etc., etc., etc., that a formally trained musician can then great. This of course doesn't make him a better musician. It only makes hime the same with the same comparable talents. What the majority of the supposed "self-taught" musicians mean is that they don't know anything about music just that they can run a minor pentatonic scale fairly well. Of course being self-taught they wouldn't know it's a minor pentatonic. Also if someone learns from books, the countless videos on youtube, certainly from the forum here from both the formally trained and self taught, hell from listening to a particular artist then your self taught credentials are a little less than the someone who learned in a vacum. So ... like any other job applicant you will or should be judged on what you actually do know, your experience and your ability which all should be at least a little better by having received some formal training. I mean would you hire someone for anything without some formal training over someone with??? It certainly doesn't make the person better qualified. Jeezzzzzzzzz!!!!

Did you miss the word "arguably" in my post?

Speaking personally, after all the hours I put in (on my own) getting to grips with playing the guitar, I feel that my reluctance to offer undue credit is both understandable and perfectly acceptable.
There were no guitar teachers in my area and no internet in those days and I could never afford books...and I figured out for myself how to emulate the players I admire.

[Charlesinator]

Redstringer, first of all my post wasn't directed at you as a player in particular ... just that the notion that someone "self taught" (whatever that means) somehow deserves more praise, credit, etc. than someone formally trained and equally as good. I have a dear friend who for the most part especially the early years would fit your definition of being self taught. Ruined many a records slowing them down with a coin and figuring out the licks which is a process he had to learn from somewhere. My buddy plays guitar professionally and has all his life. Later I'm sure he probably has resulted to books, tab, informal instruction, and whatever means necessary to further his talent and ability to make money because I think he realizes the ridiculousness of this self taught is better mindset. I asked him one time about his thoughts on tab and he replied, "Whether it's tab or music notation, it is just notes on paper they don't play themselves. The only thing the audience cares about is whether it sounds good or not." I've personally know as well as you should that the audience could care less whether or not you spent x to the 10 th power of hours by your ownself or practicing scales garnered from a book or formal instruction learning something ... only whether or not the performance sucked. I'm sure you probably play better than plenty of formally trained musicians, but you aren't better than a fromally trained musician that plays equally as good. And to shun any of the means of formal or semi-formal instruction that are available to you today regardless of your ability is asinine. Even when you were "emulating" the players you idolized that certainly could be construed as formal education. The school of hard knocks is still a school. I just hate to see folks that are proud of their ignorance concerning music and it's only guitar players who subscribe to this mentality. The fact that you are posting you opinions in an internet forum titled Tabs, Tips and Techniques suggest that you may be in search of some knowledge. Careful you may learn something. And your self taught credentials may be in jeopardy.

[redstringuitar]

I don't feel superior to players who have taken formal instruction, many of them play better guitar than myself, nor am I standing on any notion or principle that "self-taught is better". I teach others how to play the guitar and have said on many occasions that I wish I'd had someone like me (as I play now) around to help me through the difficult process of learning to play.
I taught myself to a level of competency which allowed me to be referred to as "a guitarist" while giving me the competence to develop and learn more advanced structures and techniques. That, in my book, makes me self taught and that is all I am saying...you can keep your praise, credit etc.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by redstringuitar

I'm don't feel superior to players who have taken formal instruction, many of them play better guitar than myself, nor am I standing on any notion or principle that "self-taught is better". I teach others how to play the guitar and have said on many occasions that I wish I'd had someone like me (as I play now) around to help me through the difficult process of learning to play.
I taught myself to a level of competency which allowed me to be referred to as "a guitarist" while giving me the competence to develop and learn more advanced structures and techniques. That, in my book, makes me self taught and that is all I am saying...you can keep your praise, credit etc.

redstringuitar, you are self taught according to the most widely accepted and generally held definition of the term. Anyone who twists that and equivocates around trying to redefine and renegotiate the matter has an agenda. There is no agenda to a simple definition. You are self taught. It's not a value judgment, just an observation.
You waste your time arguing the same points over and over, which is why I rest my case thusly: any player distrustful or envious, or even resentful of the self taught have some insecurity or ego-driven agenda, and you'll never get them to accept the common definition of "self taught" because it doesn't service their pride, it challenges them, as though talent is unfairly portioned out, and they didn't get their quota. It's ridiculous.
Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean, they mean specific things, as do commonly used phrases and colloquialisms. You can't redefine self taught to mean a caveman or an autistic shut in ... it means what it means. You can't "untake" lessons, and you can't minimize the efforts of self taught players by subjectively defining terms. If anyone feels inferior to or threatened by the self instructed, they need to deal with that within themselves, not by suggesting that said self motivated students are lying about or playing down their mentors and influences.

[redstringuitar]

Originally Posted by strat a various

redstringuitar, you are self taught according to the most widely accepted and generally held definition of the term. Anyone who twists that and equivocates around trying to redefine and renegotiate the matter has an agenda. There is no agenda to a simple definition. You are self taught. It's not a value judgment, just an observation.
You waste your time arguing the same points over and over, which is why I rest my case thusly: any player distrustful or envious, or even resentful of the self taught have some insecurity or ego-driven agenda, and you'll never get them to accept the common definition of "self taught" because it doesn't service their pride, it challenges them, as though talent is unfairly portioned out, and they didn't get their quota. It's ridiculous.
Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean, they mean specific things, as do commonly used phrases and colloquialisms. You can't redefine self taught to mean a caveman or an autistic shut in ... it means what it means. You can't "untake" lessons, and you can't minimize the efforts of self taught players by subjectively defining terms. If anyone feels inferior to or threatened by the self instructed, they need to deal with that within themselves, not by suggesting that said self motivated students are lying about or playing down their mentors and influences.

Agreed...and well put.

I'm just not being told, on a forum or elsewhere, that aspects my life ran in a way other than that which I know to be true.

Can't rewrite history.

[JayFreddy]

Different people have different ideas. Apparently the definition of "self-taught" isn't as universal or widely accepted as some people want to believe, otherwise there wouldn't be any disagreement about it.

Red String seems to have a good perspective, and he doesn't seem like he's trying to claim any special credit for himself. He's just explaining his situation as he sees it, and he presents himself with humility. In the context of what he describes, it makes perfect sense to me.

If someone else wants to give credit to all the players that influenced them and call them "teachers", that's fine too.

I apologize for suggesting in a previous post that players who claim to be self-taught are insecure... Bad choice of words, sorry. I don't think that's always true, but it can be. In my opinion, there's a certain level of respect you accord to those who came before you. To me, it's an issue of personal integrity.

In my experience, the most arrogant players are the ones who completely disregard those who came before them, and that's probably why it rubs me the wrong way.

Next time I hear someone claim to be "self taught", I will remind myself that they probably mean, "no formal lessons", and that they just have a different definition than I do.

It probably makes the most sense just to agree to disagree, and move on.

[Agave_Blue]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

Different people have different ideas. Apparently the definition of "self-taught" isn't as universal or widely accepted as some people want to believe, otherwise there wouldn't be any disagreement about it.

....

You are exactly right. I've read a lot of the posts in this thread and most are from the perspective of the player. "Teaching" implies an exchange, an interaction.

Teachers are generally thought to have more knowledge/skill and pass that on to students. They provide a course of instruction; a curriculum. They guide and correct; they provide material and work for self-study; they create method to measure progress and identify strengths and weaknesses.

To be "self-taught" then implies that the course of study, the assignment of self study, the methods of measuring progress, etc, are created by the student. They buy books and magazines, seek out their own sources of expertise and, in the age of the internet, get "lessons" on You Tube. But there is limited interaction; limited exhange between the student and their sources. The player is the Student and the Teacher.

Even then, no one, except possibly those few prodigiess, are taught in a vaccuum, with no interaction. They are "mostly" self-taught, pehaps, but sooner or later, they interact and exhange ideas, methods, sources.

I suspect that regardless of how effective you find "self teaching" that professional instruction, even if it is just an occasional suppliment, will be valuable. A very highly respected golf instructor noted that when you're having a problem, it might take you days to figure it out, but you professional can fix it in 30 minutes.

As a beginner (think "just laid hands on his very first instrument"), I can already see that having a professional look at, and correct, my technique (hand/finger position, instrument postion, posture, etc) and offer excercises to practice could be very valuable. It'll keep me from bad habits that may present problems in the future; problems I am not experienced enough to expect.

I also wanted to add that the idea that there are "natuals" who don't have to work hard to play great is fallacious for the most part. There may be the very rare few prodigies. Otherwise, those "naturals" bust their butts to improve and learn. While someone like Clapton may have an inate ability that we don't, my guess is he (or those like him), spent countless hours learning, practicing and playing. I'm pretty sure he didn't spend his formative years posting ideas on internet forums - he was too busy "teaching" himself to play guitar.

:2cents:

[Saxguitar]

I wouldn't say that I am self-taught but rather I am self learned and still learning. To me "taught" makes it sound like I have perfected the instrument. What I did was I grabbed the cheapest guitar I could find, got a crappy book from my library, learned the basic chord shapes, now am playing weekly on my church's praise team. I think that knowing the sax probably helped me learn the guitar to where I have learned it pretty easily and rapidly. Now I just need to go back and learn how to play chords all over the neck, and finally get serious and learn the fretboard inside and out.

[DavyA]

It's all semantics at this point. When I was a teenager I was playing my guitar at a friends house. His older sister was working in a national Folk act. A very faomous (at least at the time) singer songwriter was there and complimented me on what I was playing but offered to show me something he thought would help me out. What he taught me was the Blues progression!! I think it goes with out saying how much changed my playing!

He didn't charge me anything but he did teach me something of great value.

when I hear that Wes didn't know anything about theory because he didn't study I have to question that he grew up in a very musical family, did his first recorings with his brothers. Ya don't hang out with the likes of Wynton Kelly and Charles Brown without them teaching ya somthing...

Have Fun!

[gaddis]

This whole thread has been a big surprise to me. Frankly I never heard anybody have this argument before. People that are self-taught know what self-taught means. It means that you actively sought out the knowledge and provided yourself with whatever discipline was required to learn how to play. It does not imply that you invented the techniques and no one who is self-taught intends that to be inferred.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by gaddis

This whole thread has been a big surprise to me. Frankly I never heard anybody have this argument before. People that are self-taught know what self-taught means. It means that you actively sought out the knowledge and provided yourself with whatever discipline was required to learn how to play. It does not imply that you invented the techniques and no one who is self-taught intends that to be inferred.

I know. Some people will argue about anything.

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by dijos

any opinions?

Every opinion has a rectum. Self Taught the hard way, I stole from others.

[EdgarHF]

Originally Posted by dijos

I read form time to time that all these great players were "self-taught", which to me mans that they got a guitar, a book or whatever and began to learn the instrument all by their lonesomes.

As I dig deeper, some people, as it turns out, either had lessons (for a short or long time) or came from a family where there were plenty of competent musicians around. This leas me to beleive that they're not truly self taught.

I bring this up because it's like the 2nd biggest lie about guitar playing, and to me, it's the most frustrating myth regarding the instrument. I'm sure there are folks with a natural talent that just learned and took off from almost ground zero, but tons of talented folks put in real time to learn the instrument. any opinions?

Its not the second biggest lie its the first. I started playing when The Monkees TV show appeared. Half the kids in the old neighborhood picked up the guitar. We learned from each other. The first three songs I learned (I don't remember the order I learned them) were Louie Louie, Gloria, and I'm Not Your Steppin Stone. I picked them up from friends. I took a couple months of lessons after I learned those first songs. I joined a kid band as a bass player and learned more from the guys in the band. The leader of the band had an older brother who played in a band and was able to pass on information he got from him. Eventually my ear got good enough to pick up songs on my own. In my early 20s I began learning piano. I have taken piano lessons on and off, More off. I don't buy the I was self taught in a vacuum.

[refin]

I'm self-taught,and now I teach..........life is funny like that,eh?

[Donnie55]

Im self taught , I taught myself how ask questions to friends that were good players. And I taught myself how to steal any lick I could get. No one showed me how to do what I do with it now. Good or Bad I figured it out myself.

[hankseiz]

When I was 12, I took a Harmony Stella acoustic guitar and tuned it to some kind of open chord that sounded good. Then I clamped my index and ring fingers across frets up & down the neck and played chords that way. Self taught.

[jrich99]

I, at 15, am completely self-taught. My mom got me started with a few chords when I was 9 or 10, but since then, I've learned the hard way.

[Luther Perkins]

Ya, I'm not a self tought guitarist. I have never paid for a lesson in my life, but there was always lots of "Hey you, show me that lick you just played again...." There was also much replaying of records so I could stell riffs by ear.

So when somebody tells me they're self tought, I figure it meens they've just never had a "lesson," but I think just about everyone has said "play that again for me....."

So I don't think they are lying, they is just sayin' they done done it without no finantial aid................. or something

[klasaine]

How about we just call it a day and refer to it as self-learned - ?

[anacephalic]

defining self taught seems a tad artificial. I had some group lessons when i was 12 and then a few months of Berklee Method oriented lessons when i was in high school but the majority of what i learned i dug up from other folks, books, web pages, transcribing etc. mmm tradational student (active learner) teacher (provides information and facilitates learning) relationship if you ask me even if there is no direct contact.

The one thing i discovered going back on those method lessons was that i had learned things which i forgot and later relearned independently through a lot of struggle. my teacher had never explained why or what i was learning...ie what to do with it so it didn't stick. a good teacher can be invaluable to get you places faster provided they are a good teacher, not just a good player.

[awfulguitarnois]

I'm self-taught, and I haven't decided yet whether I'm a terrible teacher or a terrible student... but the result is the same... I'm terrible. But I love it, anyhow.

[emu!]

It's a topic that can go on for-ever. Similar to that egg conundrum.

What came first? The teacher or the student?

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by awfulguitarnois

I'm self-taught, and I haven't decided yet whether I'm a terrible teacher or a terrible student... but the result is the same... I'm terrible. But I love it, anyhow.

Well that's the show for tonight folks. Thank you and goodnight.

[Tim Armstrong]

I can't believe this thread has lasted this long! I mean, really, what a big tempest in a small teapot!!!

Tim

[emu!]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I can't believe this thread has lasted this long! I mean, really, what a big tempest in a small teapot!!!

Tim

Tempest?

That's a new word for me. Did someone teach you that word, or were you self-taught?

[HappyTelecaster]

Why should you learn to play the guitar as long as you can still make some good music with that thing, eh....?

[bluesmanmartin]

It's not hard for me to believe that someone would think it impossible to be "self taught". I mean while it's not "rocket science" there are alot of chords, progressions, theories, etc.... I have tried for years and am mediocre at best. I know the Ernie Ball basic chords and the pentatonic scale and so forth and have taken maybe 5 lessons total, but I learn from you tube and I have a couple of instructional DVD's and still not a "real" guitar player.

SRV played for hours on end, Eddie van Halen played day and night. That I think is the key the guys who are willing and able to sit for hours on end playing are the better players. I play every day mostly, but an hour at best and if I had any natural talent that would probably suffice. I think at some point the 'self taught" guitarist must have put some intense effort into learning the fretboard. Then builds on that afterward and is steady in progression toward perfection as the individual sees it.

That being said some of the "self taught" guitarist aren't very good and are only in the ballpark when it comes to playing, hell for even that matter tuning.

Martin...

[matt_mcg]

I've taken classical guitar lessons, but I'd been playing for nearly 20 years when I did so. I've never had a non-classical lesson in my life.

Of course I've made full use of books and other material, but that'd still be what most people consider, "self-taught", I assume?