Cage Mode System

[poorboy]

Hello,

Since the pentatonics are contained w/i the modes can I just super impose the pentatonics roots (major and minor) on the modes and use them to move the five caged modes around the neck? Like one would do w/ the caged pentatonic system.

Such as w/ the Ionian:

The Aeolian mode would be here, so you would move from the Aeolian mode roots (major or minor) three frets up the neck to get to the Ionian mode.



Index Middle (major root) Pinky

Middle Pinky (minor root)

Index Ring Pinky

Index (minor root) Ring Pinky (major root)

Index Middle Pinky

Middle (major root) Pinky



Then you would move two frets further up the neck from the Ionian mode roots to get to the Dorian mode/roots.



Does this make sense? I know w/ the caged pentatonic system you don’t have to change scales as the chord progression changes. Will this be the same for the caged mode system, if the roots I’ve describe above do apply to the modes. I learned the caged modes when I first started playing but abandoned them because I only learned to root off the sixth string (Aeolian) which in some keys was inconvenient. Hope you understand all this I did the simplest explanation I could! Thanks

[Budda]

I'm sure this Thread will grow to be a big one! LOL

Just keep this in mind:

The "Modes" are not specific Fingering Patterns. They are a way to highlight the various aspects of specific Tonalities.

Now, just learn the 5 CAGED Major Scale (Ionian) Patterns. They are easy if you already know the Pentatonics. Just add the 2 Notes.

Once you know those, you can use any of the 5 CAGED Patterns to play any of the 7 Modes.

The Modes are just 7 Notes, and all 7 Notes are contained within each of the CAGED Forms.
So, learn those Major Scale Patterns first. Then, you can build on the different ways to use them.
And once you know how "Modes" actually work, you can then use those Pentatonics within the Modal Framework much more effeciently, and much more creatively.

But, there are no real short cuts here. Besides, adding those 2 Notes is pretty simple. Trying to find a short cut to something that basic, is way more work than just learning how to add those 2 Notes.

[Telenator]

I would suggest learning the scales first. Then try to overlay the pentatonics over them.

It will allow you to understand that the pentatonic scales are derived from the full scales and what relationship the notes have to eachother.

Approaching it the way you have mentioned sets up a train of thought that is kinda backwards and may cause difficulty or (un-learning) in the future. You clearly have a desire to understand this and to persue more knowledge in music. IMO, getting it in the right order is just as important as the information itself.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I would suggest learning the scales first. Then try to overlay the pentatonics over them.

That was my thoughts, but then I started on classical guitar. I suspect people who start with country or blues/rock learn pentatonic playing before scalar (?) playing, eh?

[Ward]

I agree with learning the whole scale. But also make sure you note the chord form that each CAGED scale pattern is based on. This will help a lot in developing improvision technique.

Ward

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

That was my thoughts, but then I started on classical guitar. I suspect people who start with country or blues/rock learn pentatonic playing before scalar (?) playing, eh?

.....and this is why there are so many hack guitar players out there. I should know. I'm one of them. Well, I'm even worse actually. I learned lots of scales and chords early on and was well on my way to becoming a decent player when some idiot showed me the pentatonic minor scale. It was quick and dirty and it made raucous sounds so I ditched my knowledge for a quick fix and put my playing firmly in a rut for the next 20 years. Once I un-learned the pentatonic approach, I began to understand music again and I stopped getting those moments in my playing where I'd just sorta plow through certain chord changes and hope I landed in the right place. It all depends on how far you want to take it. There's no guilt in any of this. That's my story.

[warmingtone]

That's my story.

There's an interesting thread right there..."what's your story (so far)"...hahha

In a vague nutshell; the early years!...pinched my sisters guitar when she wasn't looking, took a few guitar lessons for a bit, impressed a girl, lost a girl, fell in love with the blues, left school, did crap jobs, joined a rock'n'roll band...seven years later my worlds collided...was able to re-enter school by "auditioning"; suddenly had to learn how to read music, history, english, social theory, play jazz, learn classical from scratch and complete level 5 within a year, hang out with musicians of all types, ages and instruments, wash dishes at night, move into a house with my girl friend (see what the pentatonic scale can get you!), be successful in my exams...all that in one year(1983); apparently I was good at it, because I was good enough to get entrance Uni for another three years to study music some more...so the guitar has been good to me!

...

Oops, a digression off topic...

There have been some discussions lately on modes, it can be a little contentious at times it seems. One in particular looked at "adding notes to the pentatonic to make modes"...
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-...modes-way.html

I guess there are questions of what people wish to achieve with some of this stuff...perhaps "modes" in particular.

The Pentatonic scales are a little limited, but in most musics they do form much of the backbone. The major scale is essential to understand and practically use to build chords and such, it is also the "first mode" Ionian.

So...it is not a bad thing to adapt the pentatonic systems you know to include the major scale.

A major pentatonic...
A - B - C# - E - F# - (A)
A major
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# (A)

So, you will need to find all those D's and G#'s and incorporate them into your "positions". The CAGED system does this kind of thing it would seem, but ideally, you want to be able to see the entire fretboard or large regions of it at a time (in time)...having to know each note you are playing and finding them is a good way to learn. As you play things (even your pentatonics) try being able to name the notes as you play them.

Perhaps the more "useful" modes other than the major scale is going to be the Aeolian (or natural minor). This works in the same way as you are likely thinking with major and relative minor pentatonics.

So, C major or Ionian mode
C - D -E - F - G - A - B - (C)
makes A Aeolian or "natural minor"
A - B - C - D - E - F - G - (A)
so, adding the notes B and F into your pentatonic C major or A minor.

This is "useful" where you have progressions where the iv chord is minor (so in A minor, if the D is minor) and where you have progressions like Am-G-F, all of which is common and "natural" in minor key chord families (the next step to learn before getting too bogged down in "modes" and even "positions" if you have not learned "progressions").

The other "useful" minor to know is the Dorian mode

So A Aeolian mode, or natural minor as above...
A - B - C - D - E - F - G - (A)
A Dorian mode is one note different...
A - B - C - D - E - F# - G - (A)

This is useful where the IV chord is major in progressions (so in A minor, if the the D chord is major)...you find this kind of thing in a lot of blues and in stuff by say Santana that often vamps between i-IV and uses the Dorian mode. This kind of listening will also help understand the "feel" of these modes.

The other modes could be worked out and learned in a similar way, but they are more "exotic" and perhaps not so "useful" to start with, I'd be getting the major, natural minor (Aeolian) and Dorian under your belt first, then perhaps switch this information into a study of chord theory and such rather than getting too bogged down in scale studies.

Using things to make music is the fastest way to learn these things and for them to make sense: Being able to play the phrigian mode might not help at all if you don't play, or recognize, progressions in which it might be applied (they are very rare, I can only think of the start of the Sinatra song "it was a very good year" off the top of my head). Some might argue that other scales like the equally rare harmonic minor scale (the start of "what are you doing the rest of your life" comes to mind, or a lot of neo-classical HM players perhaps)! If you are looking to move into more Jazzy areas say, chord theory is going to be far more important than modal theory...still going to need to know that major scale and be able to find all the notes on the guitar.

...

Ok...more than enough on modes, hope that helps rather than confuses, at least as an introduction and to get them under your fingers and the sounds into your head.

Something that is not mentioned much, but really is at the heart of all this kind of things are intervals.

Intervals are the gaps between notes (and in relation to a key), it is not the notes themselves that make a particular "sound" of a mode or scale. Just as I mentioned trying to name the notes as you play, work also towards recognizing the distances between notes as you play (as an exercise)...the guitar is good for this as the semitone fret spacing can work like a kind of slide rule!

You will often hear modes explained as the major scale starting from a different root, as I did with the C major and natural minor...this is true to an extent and important to know (relative majors and minors)...but not the real story. The "secrets" are in the order of intervals...

A pentatonic for instance contains all pretty consonant sounds, major and minor 2nd (one or two frets) on the surface, maj and minor 3rds, 5ths, 4ths and octaves a little deeper. It lacks things like the tritone (A-Eb)...as I discussed elsewhere.

So...a major pentatonic
C - D - E - G - A - (C)
...2...2....3....2....3....
A minor pentatonic
A - C - D - E - G - (A)
...3...2...2.....3....2...

Same notes, different order of intervals, completely different "sound". (numbers indicate semitones, steps or frets between notes)

Same thing between Major scale and the Modes...

So, C major or Ionian mode
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - (C)
...2...2....1...2....2...2....1...
A Aeolian or "natural minor"
A - B - C - D - E - F - G - (A)
...2...1....2...2....1...2....2...
D Dorian Mode
D - E - F - G - A - B - C - (D)
...2...1...2....2....2...1....2...

All the same "notes", even the same intervals, but different order and relationship to the key centre.

Learning modes is a great place to start (even if adapting the pentatonics in order to play and hear them) to get a grip on the "intervals" which will open up all kinds of other areas; Areas such as chord progressions and families, chord construction and harmony concepts, modulations, chord by chord playing, chord/scale relationships, more unusual scales and how to apply them, transcribing and analysis, etc.

Even if you don't learn them in a deep technical sense, understanding that the intervals are making the "sound" over the notes or particular positions that they might be played is the key (IMHO) to opening up so many doors as you go along.

...

I know, a lot to take in, not brief, might even know a lot of this kind of thing...but I hope someone will find something in it that is "useful"!

[poorboy]

Thanks to all! I did start on the five cage modes first but only learned to root off of the six string. So for "E" I was always at the nut or the 12th fret and never understood how to start w/ a major or minor mode at say the 5th in"E". I've got a lot to digest w/ what you've gave me. The interval and adding the two extra notes helped a lot. Thanks This is the site I've been using to make sence of it all! http://www.highcountryguitar.com/caged.htm

[warmingtone]

That's ok...I don't think there was a CAGED system as such when I was starting out, or anything much really. I think i learned the E and A shapes (in E say, root 7th fret A string) then filled in the gaps between them till all the positions seemed to run together I guess. But then, I did "study" as things went along and I decided I'd try and "get good" teaching myself major and minor stuff, chord theory and a whole range of stuff, largely from books that was for other instruments, fumbling through bad reading of notation and trying to make a passable rendition of things I was listening too where possible. This was before I went to "school" formally.

It's worth having a direction to go in, learning modes can be cool, but it helps if you are learning stuff for a reason. One thing that was not around so much then, or I wasn't exposed to but there's now plenty around even in the local libraries I suspect, is song writing books. This will give you some ideas of the kind of "must know" things related to songs you are likely to come across, things like chord progressions and melodies and such as well as a bit on majors and minors and common modes. In truth, modes in their traditional sense is fairly rare and you can get by with the major, minor and dorian modes pretty much.

Anyway, find some more positions for the pentatonics as like the "e" position you are used to, there are a bunch of great licks in each position that fall naturally under the hand and you will hear often.

[poorboy]

I was reading more today and its slowly coming. I'm also trying to learn the fret board notes at the same time. I always welcome input, didn't start playing till I was 46 and I'm now 52. I pound at it every day! Thanks

[Telenator]

Learn this, then proceed.

E---------7---------8------------------------------
B-------------------8----------------10-------------
G---------7------------------9-------10-------------
D---------7------------------9-------10-------------
A---------7---------8----------------10-------------
E-------------------8----------------10------------

Just take the first 8 notes, C D E F G A B C, and play them starting on C, everywhere you can on the neck. Suddenly several places all over the neck to play that sequence of notes! Doors fly open wide and new worlds reveal themselves.

The above scale is that which all western music traces it's roots back to.

[ac15]

As someone alluded to earlier, I think it's better to look at modes as parts of the major scales they're derived from (so D dorian contains the notes of a C major scale, only from D to D and the "home" tonality is D rather than C). It's only recently that I started doing this. For years, I knew all my modes as specific fingerings from a specific starting "root" on the 6th string, which is very limiting.

[DavyA]

Go easy with "modes"!! They are really simple unless you start up a discussion about them and then you will get confused trying to understand everyones take on them. Just get your major scales down all over the neck, and learn to find the notes on the neck. All the notes up to the 12th fret. Find an E on every string with out using open strings and again not going past the 12th fret. Play them in time with a metronome. Then find say an Ab or an F or a Bb etc....repeat!

Then use all of these notes as a starting point for the major scales! You will get the "mode" thing eventually. Anyway, I don't really think that most of us really think about modes that much....

Have Fun!

[smsuryan]

i dont think about modes anymore, unless its just reference....i play either pentatonic or in major, but if im playing in "minor" ...i dont think of it as minor, i think of it as playing off the 6 as my root but still visualize the 1....so i visualize major constantly, just using whichever note as the root...this is my way of dumbing it down cuz im kinda lazy at learning a bunch of scales...id rather know the major and intervals and use whichever one as the root...this is an advantage a guitar has: its a very pattern oriented instrument....i dont HAVE to know that a min3 up from F is Aflat, i just have to know how to find it...this makes me respect the heck out of horn players!!! i hope this makes sense...i dont use whole tone or octatonics often, and i rarely use an "exotic" scale like phrygian dominant for example, but if i do i practice it beforehand from when ill use it, and i just remember to raise the third, which is the min2, or a semitone away from the root...its really easier than you think, it all works in a circular fashion...once you understand it, its like a light goes on....when i first "got" theory i thought "oh thats it? i thought it was rocket science" just takes a bit of practice...this is getting lengthy but my best advice i could give is work on it 15-20 minutes a day every day that you play, to eventually make it second nature...and just start with the major scale in a random key, sing every note as the interval (sing 1-2-3 etc) ascending and descending and try to keep aware of where the 1 is, so you always have that reference point so you wont get as lost....when the pattern starts to solidify in your head you wont have to remember every shape, just where your root is...i guess thats kind of the CAGED sequence first rule pretty much now that i think of it...i hope this helps!!!

[anacephalic]

A Charlie Christian lesson plus the caged system opened the door to understanding modes and the fret board to me and it's pretty easy in principle. Takes a bit of doing in practice but worth thinking about. Ward and smsuryan hit on this so i'll expand a bit and hope it helps. in retrospect it's pretty basic and rambles a bit but hopefully something useful in there.

You take a major scale (ionian mode) in 5 different positions to cover an octave worth of neck. Harmonize 2 octaves of that scale in thirds and in the end you come up with a fully extended maj 7,(9,11,13) chord (maj 3, maj 7).

Note: Within those 5 scale positions you have a bunch of different voicing options for that chord per the caged forms (E, A, D, G, forms etc). Learn the spatial relationship between the 3rd, 5th and 7th to the tonic cold and on the fly. Learn how to spell chords. Then you can build a chord voice of choice where you want it.

back to modes

If you want to improvise over a maj 7th chord then a scale/mode of choice would be the first mode (ionian/major scale) because it hits the applicable scale tones. Now, take that same set of scale tones and start with the second note (D if the major was C). Harmonize that set of notes in thirds and you get a minor 7th chord (b3, b7). If you want to improvise over a minor 7th the mode to use is Dorian. I lived the first 20 yrs of playing using dorian almost exclusively and still lean on it a lot with a maj 3 and b5 thrown in for giggles, so that cluster of notes can be forced by ear onto a lot more than -7 chords.

Start on 4th scale tone (f) and harmonize the notes in thirds you get a maj chord (maj 3, maj 7) with a #4 (lydian). Start on the 5th (g) and you get a dom 7 chord (maj 3, b7) and a myxolidian mode (BB Kings favorite from what i've read). Start on the 6th scale tone you get a minor chord (relative minor/aeolian) a half diminished. starts on the 7th and phyrgian starts on the 3rd. figure out the maj scale alterations for homework.

Two points: 1) each of the modes goes with a chord type and 2) you can see the alteration to the parent major scale required to build the mode. So, if in addition to using pents and other common scale approaches, if you use different chord voicings to anchor you improvisation, at least at key points, your solos will better fit the song structure and you will be tagging the proper, or at least an appropriate mode. This approach also helps your ear learn the key chord tones that identify a chord so you can tag those tones when playing from a scaler approach.

Chord forms can be played as arpeggios or partial chords and can be linked togeather along the neck by the different forms of the scales/modes with chromatic passing tones available to add spice. The more you work with the chord forms the more you see where the chord voicings fit within the scale forms and see the patterns between the forms open up. You also see where part of one chord looks just like part of a different chord which can trigger an improv pathway. By doing all this you also get to the point where you can build scales on the fly without reverting to a form becaues the practice forces you to recognize intervals. If you need to flat a 3 and double flat a 6 you know where those intervals are.

Easy to write but it's an open ended pathway to sort it out since i've been playing with this for about a decade or more now. If someone would like to explain how modes work in minor harmony i'd love to listen. whole nuther world there.

Something to think about with pent scale forms: Maj pent give you a 1, 9, 3, 5, 6 move the root form up a whole step you get 1,9, 3, b5 and maj7 of the original tonic. take a minor pent: 1, b3, 4, 5, b7 and move that root form up a whole step you get 1,9,4,5,13 If you move the form down a whole step you get different tension notes. homework if ya want it.

[warmingtone]

anacephalic...excellent explanation of a practical application of modes and a lot more...well done!

[joinpobob]

Great thread so far. Thanks to all, especially warmingtone and anacephalic. Really good explanations.

Warmingtone, you mentioned learning different progressions. While I consider myself a decent player and think I know a bunch of progressions, I have never "studied" progressions. Do you know a link for that / a thread or would you explain more?
Thanks!

[warmingtone]

Originally Posted by joinpobob

Great thread so far. Thanks to all, especially warmingtone and anacephalic. Really good explanations.

Warmingtone, you mentioned learning different progressions. While I consider myself a decent player and think I know a bunch of progressions, I have never "studied" progressions. Do you know a link for that / a thread or would you explain more?
Thanks!

Thanks...hmmm...i'm not sure where you find this online or if it's been explored on this forum...certainly it is off topic and with my type and think (missing out an editing stage) style...might get long and confusing. I'll have a bit of a think about it.

A lot of it is taught in traditional 'classical theory' but it needn't get the involved with voice leading and such, but the way chords function. Much of it you will probably have picked up by intuition by playing a lot of progressions and songs, however it can sometimes be good to be able to "name" things and put things into 'families' and such, this is most of what theory and analysis really is after all.

A quick look found articles like this...
http://www.guitarnoise.com/blog/the-subdominant-chord/
and this...
http://guitarsecrets.com/lessons/modulation.htm
But this only touches some of the ways of looking at progressions but might give you a feel for them.

Some of the better songwriting books will explore some of these aspects. Generally I 'think/feel' in terms of the pull or lack back towards the key centre and the tendency to want to pass through other chords on that journey. There are other aspects like false cadences (such as resolving to Am instead of C for instance) and of course having a good understanding of the basics you will be able to manipulate progressions to provide modulations.

A lot is to be found in Major Keys, minors can be a little more confusing, modes have similar conventions that are less used or talked about I guess. Generally you can "teach yourself" by building the triads from any scale tone (mode or scale) and identifying the "family" of chords for that key or mode, play them in various combinations and get a feel for the various levels of pull towards a key centre...compare what you find with progressions that you know, songs you play, and see if you can "feel" these things at work. You probably already do...when you start to recognize these things, you will start to automatically "know" what a chord is in a progression (you may already intuitively do this as well). "studying it" will just hone these intuitive things and help you identify things faster and perhaps explore more unusual progressions of your owns and manipulate things with modulations and exceptions...or diffuse the underlying sounds with exotic and extended chords.

Sorry for the diversion to the thread there...possibly something to explore in it's own thread. I tried to bring it back to the subject...

I guess the important thing with all these kinds of "theory discussions" is to not just think about them 'intellectually' but to play and try and hear the concepts and to look for them in what you already know or sense. It's one of the reasons that I try and spend the time to give actual examples in my posts, things would be a lot easier to explain with guitars in hand of course!

We all tend to gravitate towards or like certain progressions, and song writers will often use very similar techniques...it can be good to know what these things are and find other things we "like" and really that is as far as 'theory' need go till you feel the need to know more.

Similar things exist in learning modes and such as well, certain kinds of melodies and such...typically in the guitar world a lot is focused on the chords as distinct 'blocks' of harmony, various extensions and such over the broader perspective, similarly with scales and modes we tend to look at the physical patterns on the fretboard rather than the sounds that these patterns make. But this may just be my impression, it is certainly easier to speak of chord formulas and the like.

Anywa...back to modes and CAGED and such...

[anacephalic]

since the functional harmony tangent has been initiated i'll take another second before allowing modes to prevail....check out Marc Sabatella's site. In particular the harmonic language of jazz standards has a lot of good stuff on why chords and progressions work the way they do. His improv primer is also a good read

http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/materials.htm

a great theory book is Mark Lavine's jazz theory book. very clear and readable

[joinpobob]

Yea, sorry about causing a tangent, but thank you both for your tips and links. I think I know what you are talking about, but have never "studied" it.

Thanks!