Bloomfield's 12 notes

[Larry F]

Mike Bloomfield once stated in a Guitar Player interview that he could take all 12 notes of the chromatic scale and relate them all to the blues. I don't think he said it that way, but it is something like that. I have two questions:

1. Can all of you do that? Is it regarded as a commonly-used practice?

2. Here's a toughie. In all guitar solos that you have heard by everyone, what do you believe are the notes used most often and least often? Can you rank all 12 notes in order of frequency used in blues guitar solos? Let's do this for a C blues. For example, you might list: Eb G Bb C F E A D Gb B Ab Db. I am basing this on all the blues that you would call blues, so no jazz or rock unless you can reasonably call it blues. I am not talking about influence, I am talking about songs that one could hear on a blues radio program. If you want to say that you play from the gut without thinking about notes, that's fine. But after the fact, what are the most commonly-used notes in a C blues solo? Not the accompanying chords or bass part. Just the solo.

[Ormond]

I think Mike Bloomfield was the best Blues player of all - people like B. B. King can not even play 5% of the runs Bloomfield played. So Bloomfield could use everything. Still pissed off that he died young because he was just getting started.
He also bent the crap out of those notes...so his transitions into less used notes in the scales was smooth and transitory.
You best bet (you sound like a beginner) would be to pick out some favorite songs and try to find the TABS. Analyzing and practicing the tabs will answer all your questions. There are a lot of blues runs tabbed out. Just do a search on YouTube and you will find your way to some source material.

[Larry F]

This is just to satisfy my curiosity about what others think. I'm not looking for help in my playing, although I really need it. I really love Bloomfield's playing. He had some very deep and difficult problems that I think would have brought him down one way or another. His bio is painful to read. About his chromatic notes, I think he uses them in several ways: passing notes, neighbor notes, and other ways. B.B. also probably uses the 12 notes more frequently than many guitarists. He is very knowledgeable about theory and seems to enjoy it, as I have read in a recent autobiography.

But, hey, don't forget my question. What are the rankings of the 12 notes in terms of frequency in a C blues guitar solo?

[DavyA]

Larry if I use (or at least have available) the Root, 2nd(9th), b3rd, 3rd, b5th, 5th, 6th(13th), b7th of each chord in a I IV V progression I have a chromatic scale! At some point in the solo you could concievably use all 12 notes....would this be a tasty solo? Maybe!

I use these chord tones quite often!! Hope this helps!

[warmingtone]

I have a lot of thoughts on this...I remember this quote and it has been influential on me, but it was a little throwaway line without exploring it much, I have thought about it a lot since.

But I sense a slightly loaded question...where do the lines really cross?

For instance, a guy from the "Chicago" school or pentatonic approach might think of a T Bone Walker as jazzy if not jazz, or more contemporary, a player like Robben Ford. Even a BB King at times.

1. Can all of you do that? Is it regarded as a commonly-used practice?

I can't speak for others, I think it is uncommon, but it is not probably as your question suggests.

Another way to put it is there any notes you can't play in the blues? I think the answer is that there is no "impossible notes".

There is a structure to note choices though, pentatonics form something of a backbone generally, both major and minor. in addition the b5 blue note is very common. Less common is connecting chords, often found in turnarounds and at times borrowing from jazz like traditions while being strongly in the blues tradition. Then there are of course passing tones and such as you suggest. Then there are both minor and major blues that have different implications.

Now, if you take all those options and relate it to a chord by chord approach to a 3 chord blues, you get most of the notes at one time or another within a progression without sounding "out there" necessarily.

So...if you took a pentatonic approach...in C

C min P
C Eb F G Bb
C maj P
C D E G A
b5
Gb
= C D Eb E F Gb G A Bb C

So, just on the chord C you have 10 of the possible 12 notes that are not "uncommon" with a mixed major/minor approach with pentatonics being the backbone. Not included is the not B (maj7) and Ab (b6)

However, it is not that uncommon to play C pentatonic and associated notes on the C chord, F on the IV and G on the V chord.

So, take the above just for the first two chords, and you get...
= C D Eb E F Gb G A Bb C
= F G Ab A Bb B C D Eb
The result is all 12 notes.

The V is particularly mailable, and turnarounds also open up possibilities and often contain chromatic movement.

So, my playing is deeply rooted in the Blues, and I do think in terms of all 12 tones having an application. I also personally try and learn the sounds of all the notes in a progression or a chord or a tonality and how to treat them. This is not a jazz thing, even if I use "jazz terminology" to describe it perhaps.

I don't know what they are playing on the "radio" or how "strict" people are about what is and isn't blues. I think that what I describe above and use is what MB was alluding to in terms of using any note within the blues format while being pretty close to the generally accepted genre.

I am also imagining that in terms of ranking, it is a little generalized, but the pentatonics both major and minor and the b5 are all very common and account for most of the notes right there, but a ranking would generally be (varying on the player and the progressions) say min pentatonic, major pentatonic and or a mix of them and the b5 in that order, plus playing scales from the chords.

Some players make quite a bit of use of altered dominant scales, chromatically moving stuff around without being "jazz", some players can make fully valid statements from the use of the min pentatonic alone (note choice is only a small part of the overall music after all), there are guys like John Lee Hooker that can be say it all with limited resources, nver moving off the one chord, just by the sound of his voice!

So...yeah, the question may be a little "loaded" or seeking a one scale fits all kind of thing which is highly individual while still recognizably within the genre.

[DavyA]

The rankings! This makes it tough!! It would certianly change according to how "blue" I was feeling. I'm not sure I could rank the notes. I use either the 7th or the 3rd or the b3rd to start a solo on the I chord. If I use the 7th then I may go to the 3rd or to the root....hmm it's the blues! Actually some times I start with the 13th! Or the 3rd!

If I over analize it, I don't think I could play it. So just as a guess I would say maybe 7th, 3rd, b3rd, 13th, 9th Root, b5th, 5th of the I chord and I suppose the IV too. The V chord is up in the air...dependends on how much tension I want at the time 7th and maybe a #5th?

The order of notes would have to change every time I played a chorus. Possibly more tension notes as the solo went on?

My brain is about to blow up I'd better go....

Have fun!

[charlie chitlin]

Sometimes I play stuff that I call "geometric" licks...repeating a pattern, then ending on a "right" note.
I don't know if musicians do this...I'm just a Blues guitar player. ;-)
Like going right across the strings, from low to high, playing, for instance,

E-------------------------8--9---
B---------------------8--9------
G------------------8--9---------
D---------------8--9------------
A---------8--9------------------
E----8--9-----------------------

Then maybe go back to 8 on the high E and end on the root.
To me the Db sounds killer right there.
Almost half the noted in this run are "wrong" and could sound more wrong or less wrong in another context.
I can't imagine "ranking" notes.
That would be like ranking my children!

[Budda]

C? There's no Blues in C!

;)

[Larry F]

Come on, you can rank 'em. I'm asking for which notes you hear more often than others. Not which notes you play, not which notes you like. Just simply, as a musician who has listened intently to the blues, what can you come away with in terms of which notes do you hear? For example, I feel pretty comfortable saying that in all the blues that I have heard, I have heard the note C way more than C#. (I'm using C as a reference.) Does anyone have experiences that counter that--not just in one performance, but in the totality of performances.

[Budda]

Okay.......

(In C)

C Root
The 4 3rds., in this order: minor JI, minor, Major, Major JI
G 5th.
F 4th.

Lower on the Totem Pole:


Bb b7th.
JI 7th.
F# #4th.
Gb b5th.

[warmingtone]

Well...still depends on the progression, tune and the approach of individual players...so there is some subjectivity.

The minor pentatonic blues scale is generally safe in all kinds of blues, both major and minor. The note E in a minor blues is "problematic" though, but not impossible, the note Eb can work in either...it all depends on the definition of "blues".

Generally the pentatonic notes are heard more often than not...so if you insist, lets give them a score out of 10, with 10 being most common...but this on the assumption that it is a "blues" in 12 bar, 3 chords all dominant 7th sounds...ok?

C...10
(root)
Db...2
(passing tone, altered dominant V b5 sound, more adventurous players, players playing off of chords)
D...6
(passing note to 3rd, 5th of V chord..but used a lot more often these days as a kind of 9th sound)
Eb...9
(minor blues 3rd, also dom7th of IV chord)
E...6
(only less used because so much is purely min pentatonic based, 3rd of I chord)
F...8
(root of IV chord, also the 7th of the V chord, common in min, less so in major)
Gb...6
(bV of I chord, but often neglected or treated as a passing tone instead of a blue note like a minor 3rd)
G...9
(very common, 5th of I chord, root of V chord, makes a nice 9th on the IV chord)
Ab...5
(only really used as the b3 of IV chord so by players who are working with the progression than a one scale fits all approach which is more common)
A...5.5
Similar thing, not part of pentatonic of I im minor, and a major third of the IV chord, creates a Dorian kind of effect, slightly more common than Ab I suspect)
Bb...9
(seventh and minor 3rd of V chord, so used a lot!)
B...4
(rare maj7 but third of V chord, not heard that often)

...

ok...so the top 5 are, surprise, surprise...pentatonic minor

C-Eb-F-G-Bb

runners up...

E (3 of I) - Gb (b5) - D (5 of V, 9th of I, 6th of IV) - A (3 of IV) - Ab (b3 of IV)

notable mentions...

B (3 of V) - Db (b5 of V)

...

All bets are off for minor blues of different varieties, or even none "standard blues like "stormy monday" etc...individual playing also not withstanding, but even in my own playing this tends to hold true after consideration. Have no idea how such a ranking could be used though?

(ps...whats a JI )

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Can you rank all 12 notes in order of frequency used in blues guitar solos? Let's do this for a C blues. For example, you might list: Eb G Bb C F E A D Gb B Ab Db. I am basing this on all the blues that you would call blues, so no jazz or rock unless you can reasonably call it blues.

Alright, I'll play ...

The first 9 - C Eb G Bb F E A D Gb - that's pretty straight forward really. M3, m3, M6, b5 - no biggie. On the other hand B Ab and Db can definitely be problematic ... at least for me in a straight up major blues. As passing tones sure, no problem but as actual melodic material. In a major blues I'm cool with the B natural but only over the V chord. In minor I have no problem with the Ab on the iv, and the B I think you can work into a i chord (as well as the V). The Db I've never been able to successfully make speak melodically in a C blues.

So my 'rating' or ranking is ...

C Eb G Bb F E -They're all pretty equal but if I had to pick what I think the order of most frequency would be, it would be that order. I'm a little uncertain about about the F and E - those could be interchangeable (same with C and G).
Gb - I guess it's less frequent but not too less frequent. What's a blues w/o a b5?
A and D - just below in frequency and maybe equal to the b5. And, depending how 'uptown' you are, they could rank at the end of the first set.
B and Ab - I will rate as rarely heard in a major blues and notes to be used carefully or not at all if you're not dead sure how to work them in. (In minor - no problem.)
Db - least important in ranking and can probably be done with out (other than as a passing tone) and wouldn't be missed. I can't think of one blues solo that I know that uses the b2nd as melodic material.

[boneyguy]

Your question is a bit difficult in that you're asking for a ranking of specific notes in C Blues but I guess your talking about those notes played over 3 different chords, so........to answer your question, for me it's more appropriate (and easier) to do it this way.

I couldn't prove it in a court of law, but........

1. Root
2. b3
3. 3
4. b7
5. 4
6. 5
7. b5
8. 6
9. 9
10. #5
11. b9
12. #7

And for the record I can and do use all of these notes at times. I particularily like playing around with #7 and the b9. Common wisdon would say that you can't lean on those notes but you can if you have an escape plan.

[nosuch]

my first thought was: what's that worth? but then I saw it is Prof. Fritts so I'll try.
In a C blues amongst the average hobbyist the minor pentatonic is most common with c, eb and g used the most I'd say.
listening to mike bloomfield i hear a lot of major pentatonic like c d e g a with a lot of mixolydian and even chromatic thrown in.
anyway,what would we learn from a statistic of notes used more often than others? i think you can't look at notes without the context of melody, harmony, rhythm, timing and phrasing. it's a bit like analyzing a text to find out the letter e is used most. did we learn anything about the art of writing?
from an academic perspective it may be interesting but not from a creative point of view. IMHO, correct me if I am wrong.

[warmingtone]

anyway,what would we learn from a statistic of notes used more often than others? i think you can't look at notes without the context of melody, harmony, rhythm, timing and phrasing. it's a bit like analyzing a text to find out the letter e is used most. did we learn anything about the art of writing?

exactly...although, it is more interesting than I thought it would be and may give people something to consider and open up some horizons.

This are very much stylistic and minor keys notes like the b2 can be used in many ways as a transition to the iv chord (I tend to use it a bit in a D# diminished thing for that transition lately), the B can be a part of the V chord major or minor, but also finds uses in some blues (I'm thinking of the last bars of "stormy Monday" which I use a IM7-ii-iii-biii kind of thing)...I can hear the Ab over the 4 chords even in a theme if it repeats the same scale tones of the I transposed onto the IV (it being the b3 of IV).

Some players like BB king, amongst others, may even favor the 6th (A) over the b7 sound.

So, I guess any note could be used as MB described, one way or another.

I suppose question #1 still remains...do people think this way? I think I do try to keep all the notes in mind, but to add spice or individuality, not as the prime "blues" language.

It all depends on the tune, the type of tune and the approach that suits.

Some things suit a lot of passing notes between target tones, in which all notes are open game for me, might come out a little jazzy...but no more so than T-bone. I also tend to favor the pentatonic tones as target tones, not just obvious chord tones.

I am also interested in progressions that are not your "typical" 12 bar 3 chord blues these days...simple diversions from the expected 12 bar changes really catch my ear as well as form and groove...note choice is only one aspect, things that are "melodic" (not just riffing away) and rhythmic ideas are probably more ear catching these days to my ears.

I go through phases of the kinds of sounds I like to play and even listen to. At the moment and for a while now I have liked the b5 sound and diminished runs in minor keys. I've prefered minor keys for a while lately even though there is perhaps more care and less choices required to a degree. Always favoured the 9th degree on major or minor keys. We don't have "blues radio" down here...hahaha

[nosuch]

warmingtones response got me back to my first thought: it all depends on the era, the style and the player.
as I mentioned, most hobbyists round here use the pentatonic minor almost exclusively, more eloquent players like bloomfield use more mixolydic scales and a lot more, so I couldn't say which tones are used more, it al depends on the sample. if you include the hobbyists, who legion compared to the the bloomfields, johnsons, fords, kings and claptons, you'll end up having something like this ranking:
root
b3
5
4
b7
3
2
b5
6
b6
b2
#9
7

etc.

if you look exclusively at more eloquent players I guess the natural third will be much higher in the ranking, same for the 6, even the chromatic tones as these often use them to approach chord tones.
The statistic would be interesting if sertain styles would be compared like chicago blues vs. english blues from the 60s (I suspect you'll find a lot more minor pentatonic in the latter - maybe the reason why this is so common on the occasional session around here, people love clapton but my have never heard of otis rush).

[jazztele]

the idea of ranking is kinda silly to me, because it changes when the chord changes--to me, in a three chord blues in C

C: most important notes are E and Bb

F: most important notes are A and Eb

G: most important notes are B and F


probably the note i'd touch on the least would be the maj7 of the I chord--while that is a b5 of the IV, that's not a tension i reach for too often on the IV.

based on what i hear, i've heard whole solos in which the cat will return to the Root of the I chord as a pivot point, interspersed with the m3 bent up to the maj3. get an interesting rhythm going with that, and you can go a whole 12 bars with 2, well, 2 1/2 notes, really.

an interesting thing would to be to take a backing track, and just play one note over the whole twelve bars. you can do anything to it, vibrato, slide in, slide out, even bend it, but you never leave that 1 note. then try a ranking, as to which note works best... I'm gonna try it...


EDIT:

well, just about 2 minutes into that exercise, i realized the only note i'd really want to do that with would be the root of the I. So that's gotta get ranked #1 from me.

[Budda]

Sorry, "JI" is for "Justly Intonated".

You know the Notes you "slightly" bend into, that are between the Frets?

So, in the "C Minor Pentatonic Box" (8th. Fret), the G String/8th. Fret would be a prime example.

Play the minor 3rd. there (G String/8th. Fret).
Now, Bend it to the Note Approx. 1/3 of the way to the 9th. Fret.
There's the JI minor 3rd.

Play the minor 3rd. again (G String/8th. Fret).
This time, Bend it to Approx. 2/3 of the way to the 9th. Fret.
There's the JI Major 3rd.

I really feel that these Notes are a HUGE part of American Music in general. (Other Cultures too, of course. But, we're talking Blues here.)

In fact, I find it almost impossible to NOT tweak that minor 3rd.!

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by Budda

Sorry, "JI" is for "Justly Intonated".

You know the Notes you "slightly" bend into, that are between the Frets?

So, in the "C Minor Pentatonic Box" (8th. Fret), the G String/8th. Fret would be a prime example.

Play the minor 3rd. there (G String/8th. Fret).
Now, Bend it to the Note Approx. 1/3 of the way to the 9th. Fret.
There's the JI minor 3rd.

Play the minor 3rd. again (G String/8th. Fret).
This time, Bend it to Approx. 2/3 of the way to the 9th. Fret.
There's the JI Major 3rd.

I really feel that these Notes are a HUGE part of American Music in general. (Other Cultures too, of course. But, we're talking Blues here.)

In fact, I find it almost impossible to NOT tweak that minor 3rd.!

I am in complete agreement with you about this. There are tons of instances where someone will hit the minor third, then goose it up to the JI major third, or minor third.

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I am in complete agreement with you about this. There are tons of instances where someone will hit the minor third, then goose it up to the JI major third, or minor third.

maybe that's #2 on the list then.

that little move is pretty much the essence of the blues, IMHO.

[Budda]

Cool, I really don't want to be one of those guys who derails someone else's Thread!

[tjalla]

I (like Bloomfield... ahem, ahem) too use all 12 notes but yes it depends on the context and how lowdown vs uptown the situation is.

The following need more specific placing so probably get used less overall:

Maj7 - I typically use it to spell out a V chord
b9 - a passing tone, esp when there is a diminished sidestep to the II chord
b6 - in a major context, it puts me in an Anson Funderberg mode especially when bent up a 1/4 tone, (or "JI"-ed as I've just learned). Actually Larry, there's another name for your list for current blues instrumentalists.

Trevor

[Larry F]

Here's another move I hear a lot. It will take a lot of words, but it is very quick and off-hand. In a C blues then:

Play F on the third string
Bend F up to either 1/4tone or semitone to Gb
Bend back down
Pull off to Eb
Hammer on C on the fourth string

These are all 16ths and legato. The first note F is the only one that is plucked. This gesture is everywhere. It is usually never front and center. It is more of an aside or clearing the throat. Harp players also use this.

[warmingtone]

There are some very typical "blues moves"...I think each player has a slightly different intonation with things like bent thirds, an a lot depends on the style of tune really.

One of the most frequently used "moves" has to be bending the g string up to the fifth or playing around with it. So, bending up that F to the G (or Gb) (for the I and V chords) or coming down to the F (for the IV and seventh of the V chord).

It brings to mind a thread I once saw on another forum years ago, the question was something like...

If playing a typical blues solo, without thinking, what is the first note, gesture or "blues move" do you tend to make?

For me the old standby is bending that F up to G, perhaps preceding it with a pickup line of some kind, say root, b3, 4 bend.

For quite a while I got so "paranoid" about that kind of thing I would try every kind of way not to start out that way.

Another is to play say, G-C-Eb(ji!)-C~~~ another "cliche" I guess.

Or the old, bend the 7th up to the root, then work your way down the pentatonic to the root below...another "typical" opening phrase.

Do others have some opening phrases that they feel almost compelled to play...or slightly sheepish that you do?

I guess we all also have little "pet licks" that you play and hear all the time...I read another thread jokingly suggesting some should be stamped out...one that has "stuck" with me and you hear all the time in blues and blues rock is the old...

Bend the F up a bit on the g string; play G on the B string; hammer on then pull off to Bb...repeat as necessary...hahaha

...

I love the "blues", it allows for so much variation, there is room for all the notes and even note "in-between" as this thread has shown, you can be pretty liberal with the timing of notes and groupings, there's a broad vocabulary of "licks" but so many individual ways of varying them, it can be as simple or as complex as you like and still fit within the genre. The only time I really get tired of it is when I hear too much of the "same old licks" and grooves, especially in my own playing...but even then, a player will come out of nowhere sometimes and play those old "licks" with such authority that you just can't help but enjoy it and feel like breaking out the guitar and playing along!

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by warmingtone

If playing a typical blues solo, without thinking, what is the first note, gesture or "blues move" do you tend to make?

the jazztele cliches: (in C, for the sake of the thread)

slide into the G at the 12th fret third string. play the Bb on the second string, back to the G, Bb (1/4 tone bend), C (2nd string), C (vibrato), Eb on the first string bent up a semitone to an E.

and

doublestop G and C (3rd and second strings) slid into from a half step below, doublestop G and Bb (same strings), doublestop F and A (10th fret, 3rd and 2nd string), doublestop Eb and G (8th fret, same strings, hammer on to E on the third string), end on vibratoed C on the fourth string tenth fret.

yeah, it's all about the root and that m3 to M3 movement for me. those have gotta be #1 and 2 on my list.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I have two questions:

1. Can all of you do that? Is it regarded as a commonly-used practice?

Of course! Each and every one of us! Where you been, classical composition school?!

Originally Posted by Larry F

2. Here's a toughie. In all guitar solos that you have heard by everyone, what do you believe are the notes used most often and least often?

Actual notes? Not intervals?

Most often they use C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, and last but not least, B natural. All the other "in-between notes" that don't have common names as recognized by Western culture are used less... E.g., 27 cents sharp of Eb, etc.

That's just what I believe. I used to believe in Santa Claus too.

Originally Posted by Larry F

Can you rank all 12 notes in order of frequency used in blues guitar solos?

That's three questions.

No, I couldn't do that without some kind of context... Not really trying to be a wise guy here, but I guess I don't really understand the question. Perhaps I don't understand the motive behind the question?

[warmingtone]

Actual notes? Not intervals?

That's a good question...intervals are so important but not so often discussed.

I was thinking about this last night, in the blues the minor 3rd interval seems to be primary, either in the root/min3rd (C-Eb) or the 5th/7th (G-Bb). Using that you can get some really interesting new "blues moves" built on that interval, and some similar ideas to the old ones by reversing the 3rds to sixths, something you don't here so often but involve the same "notes" with similar effect.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by warmingtone

That's a good question...intervals are so important but not so often discussed.

In the original post, Larry asked "which notes", not "which intervals".

I tend to think in intervals when I play too, but that's not what the question was...

[Larry F]

Be nice. Remember that I have 80 backing tracks.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by warmingtone

That's a good question...intervals are so important but not so often discussed.

I was thinking about this last night, in the blues the minor 3rd interval seems to be primary, either in the root/min3rd (C-Eb) or the 5th/7th (G-Bb). Using that you can get some really interesting new "blues moves" built on that interval, and some similar ideas to the old ones by reversing the 3rds to sixths, something you don't here so often but involve the same "notes" with similar effect.

What about the m3 of C# E, D F, Eb Gb,... I don't think representing blues as intervals can be done without the larger context provided by notes.

The note Eb is a m3 above C, but it is a M3 below G, a whole-step below F. ll of these relations figure into the sound and character of Eb, not just because it is a m3 above C. Don't we all approach Eb from those other notes as well?

[klasaine]

I think it's time to review the OP.
Larry's not asking what you do, or would do, or should do over a Blues. He wants to know what you hear the most, in ranking order, throughout you're blues listening (as well as your own past and recent past playing) history. I'm sure that Larry F has a very cool objective in mind. I myself in thinking about this realize just how corralled blues is today. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It just 'is'. Yeah, there's some blues 'mavericks' out there (no McCain/Palin jokes - unless it's Michael Palin - please) but for the most part I think you can overall rank the frequency of notes in a C major blues.

[stevieboy]

Okay I'll play. Speaking for my own playing, which I think reflects what i hear, and I can't do it any other way.

Root is surely the most

After that it gets tough to say

The other four notes in the minor pent scale, the major third, the sixth, and the second I think I play pretty close to equally. Very difficult to pick from those. I'll make myself but under protest--b3, 5, 4, major third, 6, b7, 2. That hurt. It's like ranking your kids!

After that, the b5, #5, the major seventh, then the raised root I think is a pretty good bet on the order.

[tjalla]

1st - Root
2nd - b7
3rd - ma 3rd
4th - mi 3rd (justly intontated)
5th - 5
6th - b5/#11
7th - 4
8th - 2
9th - 6
10th - b6
11th - maj7
12th - b9

[warmingtone]

Well...I had given an answer as had most, sorry if the digression is offensive. As for intervals, yes there are other interval relations, I tend to hear those minor 3rd intervals more commonly than the others, within the key and with those notes in particular Eb-C and G-Bb and often transposed with the chords.

As for what one's experience or what is heard on the "radio" or if the blues is even minor (not originally mentioned) or the sub genre all makes a significant difference to the ranking without getting too "out there".

Otherwise, there have been a lot of ranking and the OP himself had brought up other "moves" so didn't feel it was hijacking to post some similar expansion to a significantly answered topic. It's still a little bit of mystery exactly what a ranking of notes is intended to achieve in the end, the result seems to be that Bloomfield's assertion is not really that far out in a typical blues, at some point in the progression there is a place for any of the 12 notes and plenty more in between, and that most players can in their own way see that and use them as they see fit within the style.

[jazztele]

i can pretty much agree with tjalla's 1-4. seems to be what you hear the most of.

best thing about this thread is it's insipred me to listen to and play a lot more blues!

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Be nice. Remember that I have 80 backing tracks.

Didn't mean to come off as anything but... My apologies if it seemed otherwise. Seriously, apart from my wisecrack about composition school (c'mon Larry, you've got tenure, you can take it! lol), this seemed like it could be a trick question.

Looking at the example Larry gave, I can see that he was referring to intervals, but it wasn't 100% clear to me. Then again, lots of things aren't 100% clear to me, so that's not necessarily saying anything about the original post...

In the context of most blues chord changes, not over a static one-chord, without any specific tune in mind and completely by the seat of my pants, I'd rank them as:

root
5th
4th (as when the chord moves to IV or ii)
b3/#9
3rd
6
b7
b5/#4
9
7
#5/b13
b9

[JayFreddy]

Okay, the suspense is killing me! Is there going to be an objective revealed? Or any kind of observation or conclusion? Again, I'm not trying to seem impertinent, I'm just genuinely curious.

As far as ranking which intervals/notes occur most frequently in Blues guitar solos, I imagine a software program could be used to "listen" to a representative sample of solos, then calculate the results empirically.

The part that would necessarily remain subjective is determing which solos are "representative", and of course, the larger the sample group, the more accurate the results should be.

[Larry F]

I'm sorry to have been away. The semester always starts of really tense, then eases up. But only to get really tense again. That's where we are now. It is really tough to make it from here to Thanksgiving break (a week for us), but when we come back from that, it is helllllllll.

I am Joe Quantification in everything I do. I have checklists, logs, and multiple stopwatches (so I can time something while timing something). I once asked one of my grad school roommates in English, what Samuel Pepys's literary output was. I guess I wasn't satisfied with the answer because I woke up the next morning and saw a note on the kitchen table listing everything that he had written, in great detail. Followed by a note not to ask such questions of an English major whose comprehensive exams were the next day. So, that's the context. Sometimes I can't fathom something unless I have hard, fast numbers.

I don't really have a grand summary based on what the responses have been, but it is interesting to see. I understand that this thread is as unscientific as it gets. One thing that is interesting is the trend to view blues melodies has strongly connected to, and controlled by, vertical harmonies. In classical music composition, one can see trends toward simultaneous composition versus linear composition. In a linear approach, the individual lines are composed according to their internal rules of logic and the vertical structures that they imply are artifacts or by-products. In vertical composition, the notes of the harmonies are reconciled beat-by-beat. When the Bloomfield interview was done in the late 70s or so, the idea that blues melodies needed to be reconciled with the underlying chords was not a common idea, it seems to me. I'm only basing this on my experience until 1978, which is when I stopped playing. Up until then, I hung around with only musicians, and read Guitar Player and Downbeat. Now that I have picked up the guitar again, the method of making melodies out of the chords in a 12-bar blues is a much different way of looking at blues. I wouldn't argue for a second that classical melodies and jazz melodies aren't closely tied to the chords. But I feel like Rip Van Winkle when I see the b5 characterized as a #11. Or a second as a ninth, and a 6th as a 13th. In another forum, I recently read that someone could imagine playing the note A on the tonic chord if the rhythm section played a C13th (using C as a reference). I guess that it would be wrong to play A if the piano played a C7.

The note E versus Eb is really interesting. I hear a lot of blues with Eb and no E at all (not counting the chords). When I do hear E, it is almost always paired with Eb, like Albert Collins does. One common exception is a line that descends to the notes G F E, all on the 4th string, or all on the 5th string. The first finger plays F, then slides down a fret to E. Thanks to Youtube, I see that move a lot. It is often followed by a leap up a 6th to C, the tonic. But otherwise, I don't hear E being used with the same kind of autonomy as Eb.

I found warmingtone's idea interesting that BB King uses the 6th in place of b7. I think I can extend this a little. I think that the note A is used in the context of G A C or C A G, much more than G A Bb C or C Bb A G. I don't think that the semitone of A Bb or Bb A is used much in the music of the greats. Same thing with the note D. I hear C D F and F D C, but not C D Eb F or F Eb D C. I think the infrequency of these combinations of notes are related to the practice of thinking in modes or thinking in substitutions. I recall Bloomfield taking about modes in a way that showed his interest, but also his lack of familiarity with the modes that we commonly talk about now. Also, a recent thread mentioned Buddy Guy hearing a player and saying that he was "schooled." I think he said that because the player was using more notes or modes. I can't ever recall hearing Albert King or Freddie King playing C D Eb F or G A Bb C.

Another thought. A chromatic passing tone connects two diatonic notes a whole step apart. In C major, the note C# is a chromatic passing tone between C and D. I think that I hear the note E used as a chromatic passing tone between Eb and F, the note F# between F and G, and the note B between Bb and C. The minor thirds C Eb and G Bb are trickier. I think that when D Eb is used, it is as a "chromatic" passing tone between C and Eb. Similarly, the note A is a "chromatic" passing tone between G and Bb. This leaves C# and G#. These are always among the least-heard notes in this thread. One theory is that they don't exist in the system. All of the other notes are either in the minor pentatonic or are "chromatic" passing tones. C# does not exist between a chromatic passing tone is not possible between a diatonic note C and a chromatic note D.

Being in academics, one sees theories and conventions not as rules of music or "the way things are" but as models that are rarely stable. If I start off a talk at a theory conference saying that D is a chromatic note in the C blues and C# does not exist, then everyone will have an open mind and will try to see if my little theory has applications elsewhere. In European theory, for example, there is a tendency not to see scales as notes or intervals, but as steps. My model of D and A as chromatic notes fits in with that view, since C Eb F G Bb are the steps of the blues system and D E F# A B are the chromatic notes in-between the steps. No C# and G#.

One thing about blues. It is the only music that I know of where a non-harmonic tone can be thought of as stable. That is the Eb over a C7 chord. I also believe that the notes C Eb G Bb are all stable all the time in a 12-bar blues. When dissonance occurs with the melodic note Bb over the F chord and the melodic note C over the G chord, they can be justified as anticipations. I don't see these notes functioning as suspensions, using a classical music theory definition of suspension. If there is a another definition, then I would be interested to know about it. Another way of hearing C Eb G Bb as stable is to regard F and G chords as unstable. In the F chord, the note F is an upper neighbor to Eb; in a G chord, B is a lower neighbor to C, and D is a lower neighbor to Eb. It is the chords that are unstable, not the melody. This idea is supported by the call and response melodies that do not modify their notes when the F chord sounds. Same with horn riffs. Some of those stay on the same 3 or 4 notes forever.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your insights into this stuff. I am really intrigued with the blues, which I started playing at age 15. I spent weekends at the Checkerboard and other clubs in Chicago while in grad school and knew even then that no adequate theoretical models existed that could handle the inconsistencies that I have described.

I can't believe that B came in dead last, though.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I can't believe that B came in dead last, though.

Yeah, me either. I assumed it would be Db - ?

[warmingtone]

This has been an interesting thread, but there are limits to the use of statistical analysis (as shaky as this survey inevitably going to be)...but it is thought provoking.

It's going to take a bit to digest your post Larry. In my own formal education, and my own take on things, we went back into history. The "blues" is largely derived from a mix of musical cultures...a largely west african tradition colliding with western traditions of a frontier heavily influenced by religious traditional music and basic harmony (the kinds of music that might be sung in church at that time).

So there is and was a disjunct between the sensibilities of these two cultures, even in terms of the "scales" or tuning of intervals. To some extent you don't find that many musics other than such hybrids where notes are "stable" in relation to contradicting harmony...but these are largely western notions. It's interesting to see where other hybrids have developed where things go in different directions, such as in the musics of of South America and still evolving from traditional african traditions.

Anyway...big subject there...the outcome can kind of be observed with what one can make of the resources that stem from the "birth of the blues"...things like work hollers and such, or some of the music where it survives before it hit western sensibilities of harmony and such.

My feeling is that even "theoretically" with conventional sensibilities with such musics we are perhaps approaching things with the wrong "tools" for the task. Perhaps that is what you are looking to codify. A lot of the kinds of things you seem to be working towards is much like the processes of shenkarian analysis...or working in that direction. I am not sure that this is appropriate either.

For me, I have developed a sense of "tonal" environment for a lot of music. This tonal environment will alter a bit between players, genres and eras. Early blues or it's precursors tended to ignore a lot of things that western music imposes on it, even in form and chord changes. Some players kept this kind of thing up for a long time, look at a guy like J.L.Hooker...from (the regularity of chord changes and such) had to be imposed to work in ensembles, but alone it was nothing as regular as in western music. (Writing this for instance, I have put on a CD of JLH's crawling king snake with just guitar and a basic foot tap regular beat)

I guess also there is a sociological function of the blues. There is a deep history there and even psychological funtions that might be considered.

So...how does this relate to note choice and such. Well there is certainly something to pentatonic scales in all cultures. Pulling apart even our conceptions of pentatonic notes you will see it has special intervallic features. A lot seems to appear in typical speech patterns...something the blues developed strongly from, a talking storytelling tradition. Of course different cultures have far more sophisticated sense of pitch and word meaning even that most European traditions have lost to a large degree. But there are still evident inflections in note choices, even in different regions of the USA where you can sense "flat syllables" and such in accents. An interesting study would be to look at such general tonal inflections in peoples speech patterns and their social predilection for different types of music perhaps!

So in a broader alternative approach may be to see that the "tonal" vocabulary of the blues, largely pentatonic is a set of "notes" that don't "function" in the way western ideas of harmony and theories anticipate. These things have developed over time and to various extents, but there is a lot more involved than note choices I believe. Phrasing and rhythmic ideas are of at least equal importance and the sensibilities are more akin to that of speech and storytelling and expression on that level...I doubt we would be applying tonal ideas and harmony concepts as strongly in analyzing people way of talking, certainly not when we are talking to each other, but underneath there is a kind of innate patterns of speech, note and pitch choices, rhythm and inflection and cadence in the way all people talk. As time goes on we pick up things from what we hear around us, so that third sharpens with the western tradition and flattens with the African sensibilities say. Of course, even in western traditions the notes were only "adjusted" to our harmonic way of thinking about music 400 years ago or so, it's possible that the development of the blues was really just pulling things back a little...it may well be that in certain types of speech and expressions, if we were to express "the blues" we may find a preponderance of certain note choices and "flattened" tones.

Sorry for such a long post...it wasn't intended, only just drank my first cup of coffee for the day and still rambling...maybe of interest, perhaps not!

My general sensibility with musics like this, and it has come up a little in the controversial modal discussions perhaps (hahaha) and maybe I am by far in the minority or even alone in this, but that there are musics and musical sensibilities that work not primarily in a harmonic sense, but in a melodic sense...or at least derived from such traditions...and that theories and analysis that works only from a harmonic standpoint is limited to some extent.

Unfortunately harmonic concerns have by far the most attention, little is ever spoken about in terms of rhythmic placement or melodic motivation compared to note choices and how it relates to harmony...in other cultures the reverse is certainly true. The "blues" traditions do offer a wonderful intersection between the two that brings up all kinds of anomalies along the way to play with in an academic sense, but I sense that harmonic sensibilities and note choices alone are not enough to do it justice. However, in order to really get to grips with some of this stuff, I think there is a little need to use or develop other tools to work with it. On a more basic intuitive level, in which much of this music exists, or when expressing ourselves in everyday life, we don't "think" in such terms...yet such things do exist with a bit of scrutiny.

I too have always loved the blues, to a large extent you don't need a broad number of note choices to effectively express yourself. But life is complicated, and at times a broader palate of notes may well be required to express those things...underneath it though are basic human impulses; sadness, joy, humour, etc and there is some commonality there at the heart of it perhaps. I may well be romanticizing things a little overly, but there is a sense of honesty there...note choices though are I suspect largely secondary to that in the broader scheme of things.