Bloomfield's 12 notes

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I can't believe that B came in dead last, though.

Originally Posted by tjalla

12th - b9

Originally Posted by klasaine

I assumed it would be Db - ?

Me four!

Originally Posted by Larry F

I found warmingtone's idea interesting that BB King uses the 6th in place of b7. I think I can extend this a little. I think that the note A is used in the context of G A C or C A G, much more than G A Bb C or C Bb A G. I don't think that the semitone of A Bb or Bb A is used much in the music of the greats.

Check out some Peter Green... I think the tune is called "Trouble in Mind", lots of bending 6 up to b7.

I'm with you on the lack of scalar motion in blues. I like your observation about "non stable" tones that are allowed to stand, I think this happens in Balinese Gamelan music too.

Seriously, see if you can get one of your grad students to set up a program that will listen and record the frequency of notes in several different groups of music. I think Autotune can probably be tweaked on a laptop to do exactly that.

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by Larry F

When the Bloomfield interview was done in the late 70s or so, the idea that blues melodies needed to be reconciled with the underlying chords was not a common idea, it seems to me. (...)

In European theory, for example, there is a tendency not to see scales as notes or intervals, but as steps. My model of D and A as chromatic notes fits in with that view, since C Eb F G Bb are the steps of the blues system and D E F# A B are the chromatic notes in-between the steps. No C# and G#.

Which bloomfield interview are you refering to?
Can you pot a copy, please?

The "steps and chromatic notes in-between" is tempting. Reminds me of the "approaching" concept in jazz (like aproaching a chord note from a half step up or down). Listening to the opening gesture (starting wit G, A, C, Eb slides into E) in Bloomfields version of "Mary Ann" (from super session) your concept becomes quite obvious, but the other way round: Bloomfield uses the Eb as a passing tone to the E and then plays a gesture which clearly sketches a Csus: E C E F E C. In this case IMHO he uses the "minor note Eb" as a chromatic in-between for his outline of C-Major while the band continues to play a riff in C7: C C E G Bb Bb A G.
I think that in blues the interesting thing is the ambiguity? Is it major, mixolydian or minor? Is a blue note like a bending from the F (4) into something near Gb (b5) a b5 or some decoration of the F?
I admit that as a player I do not think that much like that.
Then there is George Benson who plays blues scales over Major 7 chords, and gets away with it very well. (Can this be explained by theory or is it just that his playing is so convincing that we buy it although half of the notes cry "No, I do not belong here!")
Still I think that it would be interesting to statistically examine the use of notes in different styles of blues. My suspicion is still that the source (american blues like delta and chicago styles) is rather major or mixolydian while the british blues revival and all the following styles use not only more overdrive but also more "minor gestures", which on sessions here in germany is 90% of what I hear. A simplification IMHO, only half of the truth, and for sure the reason why blues is mostly regarded as a music expressing "sad feelings" (while I hear a lot of "positive vibrations" in american blues, even if the lyrics are negative - take "I can't be satisfied" (Muddy Waters) as an example.
An explanation for this could be that playing a minor pentatonic all the time in a twelve bar blues just works (not always so well, but it works thus supporting your theory of stable notes), amateur players tend to play things that work rather than improving their craft. I have to repeat myself here: If you look at this kind of music, you'll definately find proof for your thesis that the pentatonic minor scale's notes are stable while the major sounding E and A are chromatic in between notes, but: I remember we were taught that in school (the blues is a sad music, using the pentatonic minor scale plus b5), so it may be the result of a simplifying education. When I started to dig deeper into the blues (just recenty I admit) I found a lot of "Major sounds" in it. So what you'll find out when you try to quantify the notes played in blues relly depends on "which blues" you look at. IMHO.

[warmingtone]

What I found interesting in considering that in the blues "genre" and the "stability" or at least the melodic acceptance of the minor third even where it contradicts the major third of a progression is that if this can work in the blues, then perhaps any note could be in the right circumstances be equally effective, perhaps not in the blues genre per se, but by extension to music composition generally. There are some interesting sounds and musical effects from such "contradictions", consider how a note B sounds to make a "pretty" major7th sound even though or because it is only a half step from the tonic...or note clusters that have a real attraction to the ears and stable despite their dissonance.

A lot of the "minor 3rd" thing comes from trying to express a tone somewhere between the major and minor third...on guitar such notes can be bent, on a piano for instance, there is a tendency to alternate or play both to express these "inbetween" tones. One of the reasons I have chosen to play a guitar with a trem arm is to imitate some of the vocal qualities of bending not only up, but down as well.

I think a lot is to be offered in looking at a broader approach to music and theory from other cultures and that there is a lot more that could be offered academically than a simple note choice analysis.

As for the "sadness of the blues"...I think really that the whole purpose of the blues is to be emphatic and cathartic...that's the great thing about it.

[Budda]

You guys are starting to hit on something I have been studying for the last 6 Months or so. And I will try to make a new Thread soon, that details some of it.

But the basic ideas are contained in the concept that there is a central, or Literal Tonal Center in a Tonality. And that all 12 Notes serve a Function as to highlighting this Literal Tonal Center.

It's late, and I will try to write up something more explanatory, very soon.

[nosuch]

looking forward to it.