Key + Scale for this prog

[MikeMurray]

Hey guys

So I came up with a cheesey romantic progression (I need one of them at least)

G, Em, C, D.

Now if my memory serves me correctly, this will be in the key of G?

I - G, C - IV, D - V, E - VI

Right?

Now could I play a G major pentatonic over this? Also, could I swap to a G minor during the Em? I know there are not set rules...

Also, I would guess I can play the relative minor over this, being an E-minor right?


Please correct me if I am wrong (I expect to be :P )


Thanks
Mike

[BigDaddyLH]

Yup, that is one of the most typical progressions in G. You can also play it:

G Em7 Am7 D7

And while G is the relative major to E minor, playing E minor lines over all these chords is problematic. The C# and/or D# in the E minor scale will clash with chords G, Am (or C) and D7. But the simplest thing to do is record (or get someone else to comp) then doodle over it a bit.

[garytelecastor]

Basically if this is your progression-G-Em-C-D
then, yes, it would be in Gmaj
The G major scale or pentatonic will work over the progression.
You could also use the G major or the pent over G and Em, then C major scale, and D major scale over those chords or....
The G minor would work if you want to do some outside things but basically if you use it over the Em you are including a F and Bb. The Bb is a tritone with E, and the F is a flatted second to E and both would sound a little dissonant over the Em.
I am sure Grizz will post on this as he does on most things concerning theory.
I would work out of G mixolydian on the G chord and the E natural minor scale for the Em chord.
YMMV

G mixolydian = G A B C D E F G
E natural minor = E F# G A B C D E

If you notice the only difference between the two is that in G mix the F note serves as a b7
and in E natmin the F# serves as a 9th tone; the D serves as the b7 for Em.

[MikeMurray]

Awesome thanks man.. Got no recording gear here (Otherwise I would've tried) so wanted to make sure...

I understand the Am7 sub for C :D wooohooo I am getting there..

Ok I see, but would swapping between the G major and minor pentatonics be worth trying?

(I see I said G minor, not Gm pentatonic... My bad.)

Just for validation (It's 1am here so not soo sharp) G major penta = E minor pentatonic just with different root?

@Gary Tele, thanks to you too man :)

I see, so I have to be aware of that.

Ok that seems simple enough (Cmaj and Dmaj)

My modal knowledge is pretty bad but I understand that as well. G Mixo is Cmaj scale with G as root then, and E natural minor I know too. Althought it's just a one note change and the root, I guess the biggest difference is that I'd be resolving to E and not G right?

Thanks again... I am learning :D

[warmingtone]

It's great to see people learning about some basic songwriting and progressions.

Really, you can hear this I-vi-IV-V all over the place and it's worth playing it over and over and trying to hear all the songs that come from it, as well as how it has been "played" with to good effect in others. There's a lot of ways in which you can "modulate" or build up middle sections as well.

...

To me I tend to associate this as a kind of 50's doo-wop progression. Have a look at a song like "duke of earl" if you know it. The melody (after the root note duke, duke, duke...duke of earl thing) is largely G pentatonic with the C chord given a bit of a Cmaj7 effect with the melody note B coming from the pentatonic. There is a nice 9th sound (F#) on the Em chord in that song on the words...

"And you, you will be my gir-l"

(this note (F#) comes from the major scale and is the third of the V chord so won't be found with an exclusively pentatonic approach...because it appears in a largely pentatonic context, and against this chord, it sounds kind of distinctive)

It's really worth sitting down and working out these kinds of things, while a song like this is largely pentatonic (major) where the notes from that scale fit against the chords can have a less pedestrian sound (such as the B against the C chord or the F# against the Em chord in this song) than one might come up with if thinking only major scale or pentatonic, while borrowing from both!

Still these things tend to be almost entirely "major" as in G major G,B,C,D,E,F#,(g) in the overall scheme of things....

...

I think it is important to also listen to your heart and head...what do you hear? Sing or hum along as you play the chords, what sounds "right" to you (or work out the effect you want to have), work out what those notes are in light of the harmony, as above.

It's a good idea to try and learn not what "scale" fits, but what family of notes will produce a particular effect...a more melodic approach perhaps.

...

You have indicated "cheesey romantic progression"...well, I think perhaps in your head you are hearing major. Play the progression enough so it is in your head, what melodies are you hearing, work them out as the progression loops in your mind.

To get that effect, a song like "duke of earl", or any number of others from that kind of era or even contemporary songs (as the progression lives on) and it's derivatives...you are likely to be drawing fairly exclusively from the major scale with an accent on the pentatonic notes.

It's possible to "hear" other things as well. I very much doubt many would hear or like to hear G minor pentatonic over the Em chord, it's pretty out there...however...

...

You might have a look at the song "oh darling" which has a very similar progression to the I-vi-VI-V you describe (it's more like I-V-vi-IV, etc)...

**D |G / / / |D / / / |Em / / / |C / / / |C / / / |D / / / |C / / / |D / / / |G / / / | C | G | **D
Oh... darling..believe...I never..wrong...believe..tell you..I'll never..do...no wrong

The chord marked "**D" is often, as in this case, a D augmented chord...play it like this...

x|---|---|---|-
-|-3-|---|---|-
-|-3-|---|---|-
-|---|-4-|---|-
-|---|---|-5-|-
x|---|---|---|-

This can sound particularly "schmaltzy" and although not at all "bluesy" it does have that Bb note in there and may give you some hints as how some touches of "minor" might sound effective over the D chord.

A time like 6/8 is a good idea if you want to sound particular schmaltzy as in "oh darling"...count |1 2 3, 2 2 3| kind of a cross between a waltz and a slow march perhaps.

...

If you like that kind of effect, you might consider this variation of the I-iv-IV-V that I have come up with while writing this post...kind of "sleep walk" sound to it...

|G / / / |Em / / / |C / / / | Cm / Daug / | G...

Here you can make "sense" not only of the Bb note in the Daug chord, but could also introduce the note Eb..you could as easily play a bar of Cm there and leave out the D altogether if you chose to. This introduces a nice Cminor sound that many might not have considered or "heard".

...

Of course, got to go with your head and heart with these things, listen to a fair bit of varied stuff and this will add to your vocabulary of sounds by osmosis...a bit of analysis will speed things up .

Playing around with progressions like this will certainly help enormously, whether song writing or in the "composing" of melodies for guitar solos, or instant composing in the form of improvising.

...

Could you play G minor over the E minor chord...anything is possible, but I wouldn't personally think this way especially with pentatonics. However, the note Bb (minor 3rd in G) as a b5 of the E minor chord can be used and is rather effective...

This kind of melody/line gives a bluesy/jazzy kind of effect, a bit reminiscent of songs like "at last" or even "cry me a river" (not the JT song!!!) perhaps...


-------|--------|-------------------|-----------|-----------|-------
-------|-0~~~-|-------------------|-----------|-----------|-------
-----0-|--------|---3-2-0-3~2~0---|-0~~----0-|-3-3-2~0--|-0------
-0-2---|--------|-----------------2-|------0 2--|-(0)------2-|-------
-------|--------|-------------------|-(3)--------|-----------|------
-------|-(3)----|-(0)----------------|-----------|-----------|-(3)------
D.........G...........Em.........................C ................(Daug)........G...

Hope this tab attempt can make sense of the line. If you can play the bass notes (in brackets) it might help to hear the sounds. Same progression, "schmaltzy" feel of a different flavour.

Again, this off the top of my head using the principles I outlined above and as your suggestion about the "G minor" sound...I added the Bb note to the Em chord as a bluesy b5 and on the D chord as a "schmaltzy" augmented V chord.

...

So, as a soloist, even if the tune doesn't have these "flavours" incorporated in them, you can add them...the first step is to "hear" them. So, perhaps the song is a fairly straight major sound but you want to bring something different to a solo...well you could add some of these "minor" effects in there and more.

There are lot's of other "effects" in the 'songwriters tool kit' that many would benefit from and which provide some really interesting note choices without ODing on chord theory or jumping straight into "jazz" or getting inaccessible to your average listener.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

G Em7 Am7 D7

And while G is the relative major to E minor, playing E minor lines over all these chords is problematic. The C# and/or D# in the E minor scale will clash with chords G, Am (or C) and D7.

Wow.

[warmingtone]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH View Post
G Em7 Am7 D7

And while G is the relative major to E minor, playing E minor lines over all these chords is problematic. The C# and/or D# in the E minor scale will clash with chords G, Am (or C) and D7.

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Wow.

Well...only in a dorian or melodic minor, etc not in the aeolian or natural minor which are the same notes as G major effectively....this is the minor in which is meant being relative to one another.

So, no conflict, but then as the same notes as the key, no benefit in applying these ideas in this kind of context.

[MikeMurray]

I have a lot to think about :|

Thanks :D

Will have my recording stuff on Sunday so will play then.

Dude thanks again, very very comprehensive reply.

[MikeMurray]

Ok next one :D

Was messing around and came up with

x|---|----|---|---
-|----|---|----|---
-|-2-|-2-|-2-|-2-
-|-3-|-2-|-0-|-2-
-|-5-|-3-|----|-0-
x|---|----|-3-|---

Now that'd be D, C, G, A. Now playing it by ear, (And by knowing the D is in the shape of C to me, and there is a flat third making it minor) I have concluded it would be played Dm, C, G, A. However how would I know what key it is in? Because I know it can fit into G and D, but I am not sure what's the story with the it being a minor I..

And I guess knowing that will bass what scales I can use over it? I am guessing I can write off the drone A, and the chord roots. That only leaves me with an F.. Now how do I apply that?

Thanks guys :) I am getting a little braver when it comes to exploring now!

[warmingtone]

Well...sometimes keys here are a contentious issue...

Some clarification, is that B string open throughout?

Anyway...I hear it as iv-i-VII-i in A minor

However it could be considered as i-v-IV-v in some dorian sense.

On it's own in this context alone (just 3-4 chords) I favour the former as a pair of cadances resolving to i...plagal iv-i with the i chord being in first inversion (3rd (C) in the root) and a more 'conclusive' IIV-i cadance but with a 'sus2' kind of sound.

The 1st inversion previously implies the third. and the constant A and B major second is like a "colour tones" throughout the chords. It's not unexpected to find the sus2 kinds of sounds with this kind of pedal tones and the constant throughout the progression is perhaps just as well looked at in that sense as much as the alterations they make to the individual chords.

So...a natural A minor scale (aeolian) seems most likely the better choice. D Dorina is the same notes if you are hearing it as in Dminor. I guess it depends on where the progression goes, if anywhere how you might further define "a key" or play with any ambiguity that is implied by the chord colours in it, it has potential to add more or to modulate for instance to take some less expected turns.

...

An F chord? Well that would fit pretty easily really. I am playing it with the open B in with a slow picking pattern, a bit of a diversion would be to perhaps add a Fmaj7...such as...

--0--------0---------------------------
--1------1---1----------0-------------0----
--2----2-------2------2---2---------2---2----
--2-----------------0--------0----2-------2--
--x-----------------------------0-------------
--1--1------------3-----------------------------
Fmaj7..................Gadd2...........Asus2...... .......

just a thought...

...

On the other hand, you might want to consider the progression of a song such as 'sultans of swing' which is in D minor. D-C-Bb-A (major) but also uses F (the relative major) but strong IIV-i cadences in the natural minor key (Bb instead of B as in your progression). However in these kinds of progressions the A is clearly A major (note your progression does not contain a C# and the preceding chord c,e,a makes a 1st inversion of a minor and not really "c" in context...creating a minor implication to the final chord).

F of course would be fine in either A minor or D minor of most varieties. You could go to an Amajor chord at the end to make D minor more the key and this might give it a bit of a lift, or be perceived as a kind of domV or picardy 3rd effect to A minor. You might consider a tune like "cause we've ended as lovers" made famous by jeff beck...Cm-Ab-Fmin-Cmaj to hear this effect on the i/I chord.

Where there are such modifications, going from C minor to major, you may need to make alterations to your "scale" at those points...but still the overall key remains the same.