Soloing over the old D - C - G progression

[Califiddler]

I'm sure that this has been addressed before, but I searched and couldn't find anything, so my apologies if the answer is out there and I just couldn't find it.

I'm talking Southern Rock here, like Sweet Home Alabama, Can't You See, etc., and I'm talking about scale-based improvisation. And I'm really talking about that sound that is kind of blues and kind of country.

What scales do you use to get that sound over this chord progression? Is there one scale that you play over the whole thing? Or do you need a different scale for each chord? Or do you use one scale over the D and C and a different scale over the G, or one scale over the D and another for the C and G?

Major pentatonic? Minor pentatonic? Mixolydian?

Thank you for any help!

[Lerb21]

Originally Posted by Califiddler

I'm sure that this has been addressed before, but I searched and couldn't find anything, so my apologies if the answer is out there and I just couldn't find it.

I'm talking Southern Rock here, like Sweet Home Alabama, Can't You See, etc., and I'm talking about scale-based improvisation. And I'm really talking about that sound that is kind of blues and kind of country.

What scales do you use to get that sound over this chord progression? Is there one scale that you play over the whole thing? Or do you need a different scale for each chord? Or do you use one scale over the D and C and a different scale over the G, or one scale over the D and another for the C and G?

Major pentatonic? Minor pentatonic? Mixolydian?

Thank you for any help!

I use Minor Pentatonic Blues Scale coupled with a few other things (Major bends and 7ths) over it.

This old guy.

[getbent]

the main 'lick' in can't you see is in Dmajor pent...

I think you can find stuff that works and over the years, I just blur the different scales together... most southern rock and fast country stuff you can mix and match major and minor and have it both work... as long as you stay aware of getting back to your root, you are good to go.

you can also isolate over chords and find really cool stuff.... mixing the scales helps you create the tension you want if you ask me.

[jazztele]

D mixolydian and a little Dminor pent with the added major third (that's a must--don't hang on the m3 over the D), and certainly, like getbent advised, isolate the chords and rip off some G major and G major pentatonic runs over the G.

[jamester]

The southern rock sound uses a lot of Major Pentatonics. You can get away with using the key's scale only, but it'll be better if you move the scale to fit the chord. Use a lot of 3rds/6ths and double-stops with hammer-ons, you'll start getting a feel for it...

[ddewerd]

The age old discussion....

The solo in Sweet Home Alabama looks like it's in G major pentatonic, which is "where" I play it, but I don't think of it quite that way. For instance, to resolve to a D note, it's not in the same position as you would normally think for a major pentatonic scale.

Whew, that goes back to the Thinking About Modes thread. I'm sure you're playing some other mode of a D scale, which just happens to sort of look like a G major pentatonic scale, but I'll leave to someone else to say which one. I can play it, but I'd be lying if I said I understood it all.

Cheers,
Doug

[Telenator]

Sweet Home Alabama is definitely G major pent for solos. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this classic tune destroyed by some guy playing a D minor pent scale and they just don't hear it!

Along those lines, the guys in my band end the song by punching the last 3 chords F, C, D and it makes me insane! It needs to end F, C, G. They're all really good players and get the solo parts right but that D chord ending makes me crazy. It just doesn't resolve like G does.

Can't You See is different in that it dwells on the D and resolves there so a D major pent will work there. Sweet Home dwells and resolves on the G. Two very different feels.

[Budda]

Here it goes..........

:)

[DavyA]

If I had to think in terms of scales I would probably use a D major pentatonic but add the b3rd and the b7th and just go with that. I guess its like a D major and a D minor pentatonic put together...really I would work each chord seperatly and use those chord tones and extentions..

Have fun

[getbent]

I think for those two tunes... telenator has the most direct path for what you are looking for.... those two songs have a lot of the same chords in them but are pretty different types of soloing situations...

[Tim Bowen]

I have to chuckle a bit because "Can't You See" is usually a tune I toss out if the Skynyrd faithful have a full head of steam and a bit too much sauce under the belt. Last night's gig was among the very best of the year, and after several encores, the room wouldn't let us leave. For the last one, my partner decided to launch into the Marshall Tucker tune, and I leaned over and said "You're kidding, right?", to which he replied, "Nah, milk it to death, they'll love it."

It's tough to remember everything I played since it was spontaneous, but I'll try. The first solo was very Toy Caldwell, and peppered with some of my fave butt-simple Floyd Cramer slip note piano chordal stuff. Had the tune showed up earlier in the evening, I'd have probably left it at this. The second solo just went on and on and ON. I started with sort of a Richard Thompson type approach with a Celtic bent that took advantage of open string drones, and I made use of harmonics and some ear tweaker 'in-between' bends. Then I started playing some things out a Bm7b5 arpeggio along with some chromatic stuff (I guess I was thinking "southern rock jazz" at this point). I then started playing some melodies with octaves and diatonic sixths and "tenth" (3rd) intervals. After that, I upped the gain and went back into Toy Caldwell mode, skirting between major, minor, and mixo stuff. Ordinarily, I like to resolve the tension and bring it back down by copping that signature flute riff, but as the room was aching to be brought over the top, I started playing some melodies in fourths and then did this (BS-approved) triplet root-octave-fifth chromatic figure that kept ascending and descending, until it finally landed on a D5 chord. At this point, I reached down and tweaked the MXR Carbon Copy toward flying saucer noises and fart/splat sounds through the speakers. The delay allowed me to hit the mute button with lots of ambient trail hanging over afterward, which in turn allowed me to put down the instrument, leave the room with the desired "WTF was that?" effect, and walk outside to get some air while there was still some noise emanating from the rig.

[Telenator]

Bwah ha ha! Sheer genious!

[Tim Bowen]

In truth, probably more like inspired BS and wankery at the end of the evening... but good clean fun nonetheless!

[Telenator]

LOL! I was impressed most by your ability to actually put a name to each movement of the jam and create a literary cresiendo along the way!

[SweetTea]

As for Sweet Home Alabama, here it is from the guy who wrote it. Even Ed King and Steve Gaines had differences of opinion over it.

"Kooper simply didn't like the solo because it wasn't in the key of D. He probably would've loved Steve Gaines' solo on the live album. As great as Gaines was, I was always surprised that he couldn't "hear" the real key. And to compound Kooper's error, he played the song for Mike Bloomfield and Bloomfield laughed when he heard it. "That guy played the solo in the wrong key!"

In my defense...both guitar solos came to me in a dream. Note for note. I just played it as I saw it. The tune was recorded at Studio One, Doraville, GA. NOT L.A. I believe I did the solo in 2 takes. (I've had other song ideas come to me right before drifting off to sleep. But I never actually SAW a solo like the two I saw in SHA.)

I have heard stories that Kooper wanted to redo the solo with either Collins or Rossington and they couldn't come up with anything that fit -- I have heard that story but I have never asked either one of them about it. The guys actually stuck up for me. They said that since I had saw it in a dream then that is the way it was going to be. I didn't just hear it in a dream, I actually saw it. When Billy [Powell] plays his piano solo, he plays it in the key of G.

My crazy logic always told me that the song is actually in G...NOT D. The song RESOLVES in G....listen to Billy's piano solo at the end...it's in G. In 1989, Wolf Marshall did a transcription of my guitar solo for Guitar For The Practicing Musician. He indicated ONE SHARP...which IS the key of G. I rest my case." - Ed King

[thessandman]

One sharp would also be D MIXOLYDIAN, which is the key the song is on.
IMHO

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by thessandman

One sharp would also be D MIXOLYDIAN, which is the key the song is on.
IMHO

Originally Posted by Budda

Here it goes..........

:)

+2!

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by jamester

The southern rock sound uses a lot of Major Pentatonics. You can get away with using the key's scale only, but it'll be better if you move the scale to fit the chord. Use a lot of 3rds/6ths and double-stops with hammer-ons, you'll start getting a feel for it...

+1. Follow the major chords with Major Pentatonics. You can use minor pentatonics on the D too, just make sure the minor 3rd gets bent up to the major 3rd pretty quick...

[Wailin' Tele]

Im always amazed when I read threads like this because I never consider scale types modes etc when I play.

I concentrate on playing what I hear in the moment and have over the years tried to develop an understanding of where the next interval I want to play is in relation to the note I am on.

I am not a gigging musician, Im more of a songwriter I guess. I can see the importance of following certain scales and such when nailing the piece for the public.

Don't get me wrong, as a kid I studied scales up and down the neck , developed a few of my own, and have studied theory. I think every serious guitarist should know these things. However, speaking for myself, I found it worthwhile to approach my soloing from another angle. I reserve the right in a few years to go back and look at it again from a more structured perspective.

Does anyone else just 'wing it'?

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

+1. Follow the major chords with Major Pentatonics. You can use minor pentatonics on the D too, just make sure the minor 3rd gets bent up to the major 3rd pretty quick...

Jay is right. To elaborate (or belabor the obvious), "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Can't You See?" are identical in terms of their progressions being I, bVII, IV. This is an interesting subject for me, because, even though I pay the rent playing Jazz, I do country and Blues recording sessions and the occasional classic rock gig with old friends.
This quandary has been around since these tunes came out. I remember a bass player with a MUSIC DEGREE(!) telling me that SHA was in "G" and that the D was the V, the C was the IV. That was funny.
You can write out the simple melody in any key you like ... you'd be surprised how many lead sheets are written in the wrong key, even the Real Books have mistaken key signatures. Harmonically, the tunes, SHA and CYS are in the key of the first chord. That can be confusing, because your ear can tell you that there is a resolution to "G", say if you start on "D". This is misleading. The IV chord degree is a partial resolution chord, and it sound like "home", but it isn't in this case.
Another interesting thing about these Southern Rock tunes is that, like Jazz, you have a choice in your solos of playing over each chord respectively, or playing bluesy with attendant "blue notes" over the root chord.
In "D" (Sweet Home Alabama is in "D"), you can play major tones in the tone center of each chord, play a blues scale over "D", or mix them up.
I don't want to address what the original soloists played, anyone can look up the mp3s and examine them, and I don't want to comment on the style or theoretical knowledge of the original players.
Speaking strictly from a music theory viewpoint, if the first chord is "D", progressing to "C" then "G", you're in "D" on these tunes, and, much like "Wicked Game" (from another thread), you can solo over the changes in a blues minorish pentatonic scheme through the whole progression over the root (first, in this case) chord. This alone supports the root key being the first chord.

[daves561]

If you'd like to play something other than G major pent over D-C-G, please listen to this first:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhjvpGt4r44#t=2m20s

It sounds *terrible*. QED.

[klasaine]

There was a song attached to that video?

[Larry F]

Well, I teach theory and do research, meeting a lot of different people with different viewpoints. When there is the degree of disagreement like I see here and in other recent threads, I don't see any good coming from imposing a label that so many people would disagree with. Theory is pretty good at discerning and understanding the key structure of the music of Bach to Beethoven, and some later composers. Once you get to Wagner, however, people hear differing degrees of tonal impact. With this music, however, it is just three chords played over and over. There is no long-range motion, no cadences, no tonicization (altering notes in order to create a temporary tonic), no contrasting themes in different keys, no development section that ends on the V chord, really not much evidence upon which to build a claim for hearing it in one key or another--or I should say, in one more or another. Speaking on behalf of my fellow professional theorists, I think we would agree with those who say, here we go again. I just don't see any benefit from this. I am glad, however, that people are using their ears in their arguments.

[Leon Grizzard]

The benefit is for less advanced players, trying to figure out what to play. Over and over they are told how important the major scale and major keys are, and then they get a progression like this that doesn't seem to fit in with their understanding and they need and appreciate some guidance on how to approach it, and so it is useful to those players to go over once a year, because they missed it last time, or need or like hearing it again. There are a lot of things, in music and otherwise, that I have needed to hear at different times to get them.

(There is this book called "Tonality in Western Culture" by Richard somebody (Norton?), from up your way. I just walked over to the bookcase and didn't see it; surely I still have it. Anyway, I've read it about three times, and it has been influential on me, but I can't follow most of it. Maybe next time.)

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by Telenator

Sweet Home Alabama is definitely G major pent for solos. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this classic tune destroyed by some guy playing a D minor pent scale and they just don't hear it!

Can't You See is different in that it dwells on the D and resolves there so a D major pent will work there. Sweet Home dwells and resolves on the G. Two very different feels.

This is all you really need to know to solo on these tunes for hours on end.

[JayFreddy]

I'm sure this has been posted elsewhere, but for a lot of my students, the epiphany is when they realize that the notes of the major pentatonics for each of those chords combine to create D Mixo, ie., G major scales.

E.g.
D major pentatonic = DEF#AB
C major pentatonic = CDEGA
G major pentatonic = GABDE
----------------------------
Add 'em all up: DEF#GABC (D Mixo)

Of course, you can use the minor 3rds of C and G (Eb and Bb respectively) with varying degrees of success as long as they're used as passing tones... Same thing with the flat 7's (Bb and F respectively), so long as it's in context of a musical phrase.

One of my guitar students today asked me how you can tell whether a song is in A minor versus C major, since they both share the same key siggie. Of course, the V7 is an obvious giveaway, and there are there other cues, but most important is how it sounds, and what context the chords are used in...

An analogy to grammar could be the following two sentences:

1) The cat jumped over the fence.
2) The fence that the cat jumped over.

Both sentences have the same nouns and verbs, but in one, the cat is the subject, in the other, the fence is the subject. In grammar it's called syntax. I don't know what it's called in music, but it seems to work the same way.
.
.
.

[sequencepro]

Jay is right. To elaborate (or belabor the obvious), "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Can't You See?" are identical in terms of their progressions being I, bVII, IV.

Not EXACTLY. Can't You See resolves back to the obvious tonic(D): 1 b7 4 1;
But Sweet Home Alabama hangs on the G twice as long as it does on the other chords, which, admittedly, is most often interpreted: (1 b7) 4 (1 b7) 4 , but for MANY feels more like (5 4) 1 (5 4) 1, i.e., where it resolves to a G Tonic.

I had ALWAYS considered SHA as being in D, until one night while playing SHA on "autopilot" for the 10,000th time, suddenly I heard, felt, and KNEW it was in G with everything in me.(I was, as I am every night, drug/alcohol free, lest you jump to conclusions.) I've never been able to FULLY replicate that experience again, (where I absolutely could not hear it in anything but G), but that experience changed my perspective about being SO RIGID with my interpretation of songs, which some of us, (including me), who have spent alot of time and money getting a musical education, can be.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by sequencepro

Not EXACTLY. Can't You See resolves back to the obvious tonic(D): 1 b7 4 1;
But Sweet Home Alabama hangs on the G twice as long as it does on the other chords, which, admittedly, is most often interpreted: (1 b7) 4 (1 b7) 4 , but for MANY feels more like (5 4) 1 (5 4) 1, i.e., where it resolves to a G Tonic.

I had ALWAYS considered SHA as being in D, until one night while playing SHA on "autopilot" for the 10,000th time, suddenly I heard, felt, and KNEW it was in G with everything in me.(I was, as I am every night, drug/alcohol free, lest you jump to conclusions.) I've never been able to FULLY replicate that experience again, (where I absolutely could not hear it in anything but G), but that experience changed my perspective about being SO RIGID with my interpretation of songs, which some of us, (including me), who have spent alot of time and money getting a musical education, can be.

Glad you had an epiphany. Both tunes are in D.

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by Telenator

LOL! I was impressed most by your ability to actually put a name to each movement of the jam and create a literary cresiendo along the way!

Tim, it was like I was right there!

Sometimes good, clean inspired BS is exactly what the doctor ordered. For audience and bandmembers alike.

[Wailin' Tele]

Its worth one more shot.

Aural fret board knowledge will set you free my brothers. We're talking about a three chord riff here.

Paz

[daves561]

Originally Posted by Larry F

With this music, however, it is just three chords played over and over. There is no long-range motion, no cadences, no tonicization (altering notes in order to create a temporary tonic)...

Ah, but there *is* the F-C cadence leading into the first guitar solo, repeated in the chorus repeats at the end. In G, the cadence ends up b7-4-5-4-1, which you can view as b7-4-(delayed tonic)-1, a pretty common country(-rock) thing. In D, it's an unwieldy b3-b7-1-b7-4.

Nothing about these changes says anything but "G major" to me.

[emu!]

Originally Posted by Wailin' Tele

Does anyone else just 'wing it'?

I'm not good enough to just wing it aurally, but when I'm in doubt, I'll just play a pent scale corresponding to the backing chord. In this case, a G major/minor pent (3rd fret) over the G...a C major/minor pent (8th fret) over the C...and a D major/minor pent (10th fret) over the D. It sounds good to my ears.

I'm not sure, but I think this may be modal playing...

[Wailin' Tele]

Originally Posted by emu!

I'm not good enough to just wing it aurally,.... It sounds good to my ears.

Sounds like you are.
And thats the point.

The problem that position playing can bring is that you get stuck in the same patterns. Learn them then forget them.

[klasaine]

I say "D" and here's my reasoning ...

Regardless of what the chords are, the melody of SHA is all in D major (or maj penta or maybe there's a 7th in there too). And I reason it this way ...
If I re-harm 'On Green Dolphin Street' but still keep the key as "C" (or Eb for you easterners), and I retain the original melody - no matter how wacky the changes get - the tune is still in C.

"Werewolves of London", which is exactly the same harmonic form as SHA (it may be a different key but it's still I - bVII - IV) is in "G" because the melody is in G.

[daves561]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I say "D" and here's my reasoning ...

Regardless of what the chords are, the melody of SHA is all in D major (or maj penta or maybe there's a 7th in there too).

Well I'm always up for more reasons, more digging, etc..., but the melody is in D? Assuming you're talking about the vocal line, the very first note is an F natural (and not in a swoop-up-to-the-major-3rd bluesy way).

Where is our disconnect?

[daves561]

Okay, I just re-re-re-listened (and I truly despise this song, so that's dedication for you) and...what the heck is the first note?

It's an F-natural-and-a-half. Sometimes it's an F#. Sometimes it's kinda just south. So maybe it is that bluesy swoop-up-to-the-major-3rd. (It doesn't help that the vocal track sounds all doubled and stuff.)

I still say G, and I have my reasons, but I have a meeting right now, so duty calls...

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by daves561

Well I'm always up for more reasons, more digging, etc..., but the melody is in D? Assuming you're talking about the vocal line, the very first note is an F natural (and not in a swoop-up-to-the-major-3rd bluesy way).

Where is our disconnect?

You're right about the 1st note of the melody most of the time it is F natural (or F something) but I still hear everything resolving in the melody to a D (F - E - D). The F wouldn't be in the key of G either. I think it's just a passing note or ornament or 'the blues thing'.
I'm also not saying I'm right about the D key thing. I'm just saying I think of it in D and here's why 'for me'.

[Telenator]

The song is in G. This is the problem when people take short cuts to learning guitar and destroy their ears with that dang pent minor scale! You get used to hearing that dreadful b3 everywhere and soon it starts to sound normal.

Anyone with any musical education will tell you SHA is in G. It is. Anyone with a decent ear that hasn't been all tainted will tell you that the song is in G. But of course, those playing their solos in D pent minor would have to admit that the pent minor scale is NOT the end all in guitar playing and would then be forced to change their perspective and approach to guitar soloing. Where's the fun in that?

[klasaine]

I don't play my solo in D min penta when (god forbid) I actually have to play that thing.
I play in D mixo (or G if you like) or whatever I feel and hear is gonna work at the time.
I'm pretty educated when it comes to music and my ear is good and this is what I do. I think it's in D because the melody sounds to me like it's in D.
And to reiterate for the THIRD time - "this is just my way of thinking about it" and I gave my reason why. And I have no problem with how anybody else thinks of it.
It never sounded to me as if Ed King was 'in the wrong key'. It's a great couple of solos on that tune. I always thought it was really cool.
I hate playing that song.
I hate every cover version I've ever heard of that song.
(Yes HATE - I know that's strong. I mean it to be.)
It was a great moment in recorded rock history and is best left to 'Second Helping' album version.

[Telenator]

Uhhhhhh,.......huh huh,.......... he said "hate." LOL!