Soloing over the old D - C - G progression

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by daves561

Okay, I just re-re-re-listened (and I truly despise this song, so that's dedication for you) and...what the heck is the first note?

It's an F-natural-and-a-half. Sometimes it's an F#. Sometimes it's kinda just south. So maybe it is that bluesy swoop-up-to-the-major-3rd. (It doesn't help that the vocal track sounds all doubled and stuff.)

I still say G, and I have my reasons, but I have a meeting right now, so duty calls...

There's a problem in this thread (and other recent threads), this is what it is: Someone has decided that the key of a piece of music is the key signature that relies on the fewest accidentals to notate accurately, and/or that the scale that corresponds most closely to the melody represents the tone center of the key.
These are both fallacies. Since I'm a jazzer, I'll give two out of literally thousands of examples. Duke's "Cottontail". Written in Ab, pivotal melody note in bar 5, D natural. Sure, I know, it's just one note. "Well You Needn't" by Monk, written in "F", melody has recurring B naturals and Eb everywhere ... if the F is an F7, why isn't the tune in Bb? B natural is the first note. First note isn't in the key of "F", and for you Mixed-up-Lydians, it's not even in the key of Bb.
The key of a tune is a writing concern, I don't really care what key a piece is written in, (unless I'm sight reading it cold), but the harmonic structure, now that's more important. There is a main tone center, ignoring key changes, for most every tune. Sometimes there are more than one, "In Your Own Sweet Way", "Unforgettable", most of Cole Porter, but there is a main one.
The main tone center of Sweet Home Alabama and Can't You See? are both the first chord of the tune. There will be flat sevens and even flatted thirds involved, doesn't matter. SHA is in "D".

[daves561]

Originally Posted by strat a various

There's a problem in this thread (and other recent threads), this is what it is: Someone has decided that the key of a piece of music is the key signature that relies on the fewest accidentals to notate accurately, and/or that the scale that corresponds most closely to the melody represents the tone center of the key.

For what it's worth, that's not how I'm approaching the question. I'm evaluating the harmonic motion in a qualitative way -- as much as I hate to use such big words when discussing a Skynyrd tune.

Whatever else is going on, no matter how many sharps or flats or mixolydians or superlocrian b9b13s are involved, two bars of SHA -- D C | G G -- sounds like this to me: tension tension | landing pad landing pad

landing pad = tonic = G for these ears.

[daves561]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I don't play my solo in D min penta when (god forbid) I actually have to play that thing.
I play in D mixo (or G if you like) or whatever I feel and hear is gonna work at the time.
I'm pretty educated when it comes to music and my ear is good and this is what I do. I think it's in D because the melody sounds to me like it's in D.

Word.

Ken speaketh his truth. Usually Ken's truth is The Truth, but sometimes there are hyperfine splittings of hairs.

Whatever comes out of this discussion, one thing's for sure: the next time I have to play this song, I'll probably have a new perspective. Rock on TDPRI!

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by daves561

For what it's worth, that's not how I'm approaching the question. I'm evaluating the harmonic motion in a qualitative way -- as much as I hate to use such big words when discussing a Skynyrd tune.

Whatever else is going on, no matter how many sharps or flats or mixolydians or superlocrian b9b13s are involved, two bars of SHA -- D C | G G -- sounds like this to me: tension tension | landing pad landing pad

landing pad = tonic = G for these ears.

I can help you with that.

[Wailin' Tele]

Big wheels keep on turning
Carry me home to my kin
Singing songs about the south land
I miss alabamy once again, and I think its a sin

Its a cover tune, the leads not that difficult, why not just learn the darn thing note for note.

I like accidentals thats why I play it in C#. lol

Holy Moses I like you guys.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by strat a various

There's a problem in this thread (and other recent threads), this is what it is: Someone has decided that the key of a piece of music is the key signature that relies on the fewest accidentals to notate accurately, and/or that the scale that corresponds most closely to the melody represents the tone center of the key.
These are both fallacies. Since I'm a jazzer, I'll give two out of literally thousands of examples. Duke's "Cottontail". Written in Ab, pivotal melody note in bar 5, D natural. Sure, I know, it's just one note. "Well You Needn't" by Monk, written in "F", melody has recurring B naturals and Eb everywhere ... if the F is an F7, why isn't the tune in Bb? B natural is the first note. First note isn't in the key of "F", and for you Mixed-up-Lydians, it's not even in the key of Bb.
The key of a tune is a writing concern, I don't really care what key a piece is written in, (unless I'm sight reading it cold), but the harmonic structure, now that's more important. There is a main tone center, ignoring key changes, for most every tune. Sometimes there are more than one, "In Your Own Sweet Way", "Unforgettable", most of Cole Porter, but there is a main one.
The main tone center of Sweet Home Alabama and Can't You See? are both the first chord of the tune. There will be flat sevens and even flatted thirds involved, doesn't matter. SHA is in "D".

That's a good point. I've always had a 'problem' with key signatures in general for jazz and rock songs. Like what's the key sig for a Bb blues? Is it two flats or three? And, should you change the key sig at the IV chord? When I write pop, rock and jazz stuff out for myself I rarely even use a key signature unless I know that for instance all F's are sharp.

Based on 'most' of the melody of SHA if you think of the starting melody note as an F natural (which it sort of is sometimes) I guess the key of C would be the best place to write it.

*I had a rehearsal today with 3 other guitarists (all pros and very musically educated). They all think it's in D as well.
As much of Good ole boy southern party band as Skynyrd was, one thing is for sure ... the soloists knew how to play over changes. At least rock and blues changes. So for them or anyone playing that song - nail the chords and you'll nail the (or a) solo.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Tim, it was like I was right there!

Sometimes good, clean inspired BS is exactly what the doctor ordered. For audience and bandmembers alike.

Good thing, as it's a major factor in being able to pay my bills!

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by klasaine

That's a good point. I've always had a 'problem' with key signatures in general for jazz and rock songs. Like what's the key sig for a Bb blues? Is it two flats or three? And, should you change the key sig at the IV chord? When I write pop, rock and jazz stuff out for myself I rarely even use a key signature unless I know that for instance all F's are sharp.

Based on 'most' of the melody of SHA if you think of the starting melody note as an F natural (which it sort of is sometimes) I guess the key of C would be the best place to write it.

*I had a rehearsal today with 3 other guitarists (all pros and very musically educated). They all think it's in D as well.
As much of Good ole boy southern party band as Skynyrd was, one thing is for sure ... the soloists knew how to play over changes. At least rock and blues changes. So for them or anyone playing that song - nail the chords and you'll nail the (or a) solo.

Don't write it in "C". Here's something that may give you a look at SHA from a different perspective. Instead of playing it normally with the "G" voiced lower than the other chords, play it up at the 10th fret and voice the "G" higher than the "D", like the typical IV of a blues tune, you'll hear that's it doesn't really resolve, it sounds like a IV, and it wants to resolve to the "D". Throw in the first two bars of "Dixie" in "D" at the end.

[Tim Bowen]

Okay, how about this... playing in "D" doesn't sound exactly right over the C and the G, and playing in "G" doesn't sound exactly right over the D and the C - but neither sounds horrible. Does that about cover it?

My ears won't let me pick either a D major pentatonic or a G major pentatonic exclusively to wank endlessly over that chord progression, they really won't. Sometimes though, I'll go for one of those crowd pleasing good ol' boy chitlin' chompin' southern rock anthem dweedily dweedily cliche' licks over all the chords, just because it's a classic "woohoo!" moment that fits the vibe of certain rooms, and I usually have a private chuckle to myself (yep, I'm talking a bit of pandering here - my first job is entertainer, my second job is musician). For the most part though, the ears are going to lead me through the chords in a way that neither a basic G or D tonality will allow, at least exclusively.

A fact that other posters have alluded to is that this argument/discussion/whatever has been around for a long time. I remember rolling around in the mud with musos about it in the 80's. As Ken said, it doesn't really matter if people hear it differently, as long as they make it sound good and play it with conviction. That said, if I strictly wank a D major penta or a G major penta over SHA, the D major sounds less goofy to me. If I gotta pick 'a scale' (geez, do I have to?), it's D mixo.

I loved "Sweet Home Alabama" when I was fourteen years old. Had the single, the album, wore out the grooves on the vinyl, gigged it incessantly with some of my early bands. However, there's something about thirty years worth of knowing that most every week of your life, drunken rednecks at bars (not that all fans of the song are such) are going to beat you half to death with requests for this tune that was really cool in 1974 - that tends to taint your opinion after a point. That's why I decided to pick up the Marshall Tucker tune (which we never rehearsed by the way!) - as sort of a consolation prize to tame the savage inebriated primates for a minute, if you will. It's a tune kept in reserve for "emergencies". I have played SHA once at a gig over the last twenty years or so. After my soundcheck at a huge college bar a couple of summers back, a guy from another act on the bill approached me, explained that their primary guitarist had unexpectedly taken very ill, practically begged me to play their set with them, and slapped a hundred dollar bill in my hand. I said, "Sure, what the heck." During the set, SHA came up. What was I going to do, get a case of the prima donna, spoil everybody's fun, and - beyond all that - forfeit my additional Benjamin? I grinned and played it like it was the last song I'd ever get to play in this life. I also played "Every Rose Has It's Thorn" by Poison during that set. Grinned all the way through that one as well, and even chipped in with some harmony vocals.

[Telenator]

.......and no one can sum this up better than Tom Petty when he said, "It's rock n' roll. It's not supposed to be THAT good."

[Califiddler]

So far I'm finding that playing a D major pentatonic over the D and C chords and a G major pentatonic over the G chords works OK, although it is pretty country sounding. I have to get more blue notes in there.

And for those who wonder how anyone can stand to play SHA after all these years, well, not all of us have been playing it for all those years. I was almost exclusively an acoustic player until 4 years ago, when I joined my first rock-n-roll band at age 44. I am thrilled to be playing those songs in an electric band at age 48. Maybe I won't be playing them at all when I'm 68, or maybe I'll be sick of them. But right now, it's just a gas to be playing in a band. And I really like these songs.

[jrich99]

If anyone out there likes Keith Urban, the live intro to "You look good in my shirt" is a good example of this. It combines the g major and minor pentatonics pretty well.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by Califiddler

And for those who wonder how anyone can stand to play SHA after all these years, well, not all of us have been playing it for all those years. I was almost exclusively an acoustic player until 4 years ago, when I joined my first rock-n-roll band at age 44. I am thrilled to be playing those songs in an electric band at age 48. Maybe I won't be playing them at all when I'm 68, or maybe I'll be sick of them. But right now, it's just a gas to be playing in a band. And I really like these songs.

Right on. The reason to play music is because you dig it, and no further justification is required. Just because I got a bit jaded after playing SHA countless times doesn't mean that it's not a good song, and it definitely shouldn't amount to a hill of beans as to how someone else feels about playing it. For the record, I'm still a Lynyrd Skynyrd fan. It's just that I'd rather not do that one live anymore if I can help it. I still teach it on occasion though.

[Telenator]

Yeah, I never played the song before until 2 years ago. The people love it at the gigs we play and that's enough for me.

[ddewerd]

Yup, gotta give 'em what they want.

I'm in the boondocks of Texas, and the musical tastes out here are quite varied. My little band does a bit of everything, from George Strait to ZZ Top, and even a few polkas and waltzes.

We just started doing SHA (again), but for fun I threw in a couple of verses and chorus of Kid Rock's "All Summer Long" right in the middle - the crowd loved it.

And for the record, I play the solos in G maj pentatonic.

Cheers,
Doug

[ddewerd]

FWIW, I think there is another difference between SHA and CYS. Both have 4 chords in the progression...

CYS - D C G D
SHA - D C G G

But CYS goes back to the D, where SHA stays on the G.

So it's not quite apples to apples.

Cheers,
Doug

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by ddewerd

FWIW, I think there is another difference between SHA and CYS. Both have 4 chords in the progression...

CYS - D C G D
SHA - D C G G

But CYS goes back to the D, where SHA stays on the G.

So it's not quite apples to apples.

Cheers,
Doug

"Four chords" doesn't mean what you think it means. There are three different chords. There are just three chords. If you read in this thread that these two tunes are identical save for lyrics, point out the post. I can't find it.
Try playing Sweet Home Alabama all the way to the end of the song. Now try to end it on the "G" chord. That's ending it on the IV chord. It wants to resolve to "D" at the very end. Because it's in "D".

[Leon Grizzard]

D.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

D.

See, even Leon agrees, and he hardly ever agrees with me.

[ddewerd]

Originally Posted by strat a various

"Four chords" doesn't mean what you think it means. There are three different chords. There are just three chords. If you read in this thread that these two tunes are identical save for lyrics, point out the post. I can't find it.
Try playing Sweet Home Alabama all the way to the end of the song. Now try to end it on the "G" chord. That's ending it on the IV chord. It wants to resolve to "D" at the very end. Because it's in "D".

I gotta disagree. First, what I really meant by the 4 chords is that it's a 4 chord progression, kind of thinking one chord per line of the verse. And I'm not arguing what key it's in either.

The last line of the verse (or chorus) is played against a D in CYS, and a G in SHA. Try singing CYA lyrics against that G (or vice versa) - it no worky. That's all my point was. Part of the discussion was about why you can do a Dmaj pent in CYS and Gmaj pent in SHA, and my point was that it has to do with that last chord.

And SHA does actually end on a G (F-C-G)

Cheers,
Doug

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by ddewerd

meant by the 4 chords is that it's a 4 chord progression, kind of thinking one chord per line of the verse. And I'm not arguing what key it's in either.

As long we're in the tips and theory section we're gonna have to adhere to some universally accepted definitions ...
A "3 chord" song or section (as in the main section of SHA) has 3 chords in it, whether one repeats for a bar or not. Forget about the bar structure. SHA, CYS (and Werewolves of London) are 3 chord tunes.
*would you tell someone a 12 bar blues is a 12 chord tune?

Originally Posted by ddewerd

And SHA does actually end on a G (F-C-G)

On my original vinyl it fades - ?

[ddewerd]

Originally Posted by klasaine

As long we're in the tips and theory section we're gonna have to adhere to some universally accepted definitions ...
A "3 chord" song or section (as in the main section of SHA) has 3 chords in it, whether one repeats for a bar or not. Forget about the bar structure. SHA, CYS (and Werewolves of London) are 3 chord tunes.
*would you tell someone a 12 bar blues is a 12 chord tune?

Ok, you got me on the # of chords, I was really thinking about the progression. But semantics aside, it doesn't change my original thought of the last line ending on a D or a G

On my original vinyl it fades - ?

Listen to the live version

ending starts about 5:10



Cheers,
Doug

[warmingtone]

Hmmm...well it's interesting to hear how people perceive the key centre in this tune, I had not realized that it was "controversial" till recently.

One could go as deep as you like with theory...much of how you perceive and explain things I suspect comes from what you bring to it. Personally, I am able to perceive it in a number of ways and am not so dogmatic.

...

Putting that aside (unless someone really wants to pull apart SHA and why it is heard in both G or D, etc)...the question was...

Soloing over the old D - C - G progression

I'm talking Southern Rock here, like Sweet Home Alabama, Can't You See, etc., and I'm talking about scale-based improvisation. And I'm really talking about that sound that is kind of blues and kind of country.

What scales do you use to get that sound over this chord progression? Is there one scale that you play over the whole thing? Or do you need a different scale for each chord? Or do you use one scale over the D and C and a different scale over the G, or one scale over the D and another for the C and G?

Well...the music and the video should help. I'm not sure if people coming to the "country rock" style are from a blues pentatonic background, obviously a lot of pentatonic players out there.

This style is largely major pentatonic in the way it is typically played, and there are timing differences between this "style" and a typical blues style.

As opposed to the "blues" the timing is far more 'rigid' and tends to be cut into 4's...1 & 2 & 1e&a 2 &, 1e&a 2e&a 3 (4), etc....less "swing" or pushing and pulling of the time that is typical in blues soloing.

As for note choice...there are several approaches, there are plenty of transcriptions around of this song and if you want to play with this sound, it's a virtual encyclopedia...pull it apart.

These guys largely seem to be working from major pentatonic boxes and looking closely at thing may reveal a little about how they are thinking.

The riff at about 1:00 at on that clip clearly shows a "chord by chord" thing where they are working out of the 'front' of the A shaped chords (some might think of this as the G shaped box in CAGED, I guess), D a the 7th fret, C at the 5th and G at the open strings, giving access to the open harmonics at the end.

This approach can and is used in soloing with pentatonics.

You could use either the G or D major pentatonics...interestingly if you look at both of these set of notes...

G,A,B,D,E,(G)
D,E,F#,A,B,(D)

Both pentatonics avoid the note C even though there is a C chord in the progression. It's possible to use either or combined...G,A,B,D,E,F#,(G) giving you a 6 note "scale". Add in the note C that does appear, and you would have the G major scale, or D mixolydian tones (depending how you feel about the key centre I suppose).

Still...if you are a pentatonic player, perhaps "thinking" that way is going to be a struggle...as if you are learning a new scale or having to think of both at once!

So...the Dm pentatonic...well, it's possible to use that in small doses if you like that sound. You could "hear" it as hinting at a G7 kind of sound, or a blues minor third...this "sound" is hinted at with the F-C stab cadence-y thing...but small doses, and again with that characteristic strict time, not blues wailing! Again, look to where the LS might use it. Personally I don't think it's a good idea to think of it that way if you want this "sound".

You could approach it with Major scales (or modes thereof) G major consistently works, if you "hear" it in D (perfectly possible) those same notes would give you the D mixolydian scale by default. However, the solos show that characteristic minor third leap throughout indicative of the pentatonic approach.

If you wanted to get "adventurous" with it, well from the question you seem to be wanting to play it "in style" where the above tips and the song and solos pretty much says it all...you could add to it with a more "holistic approach"...

For instance, you could just experiment with all the notes and see how they sound and make a judgment on how they could be used, or if you wish to completely exclude them.

The note C# to me sounds particularly bad for instance...but for this song and style, not in the LS vocabulary! It's possible to use most notes as passing tones an still keep 'reasonably' in style, especially with the appropriate rhythmic motifs. If one is hearing it in D then I respectfully suggest you are hearing not D major, but D mixolydian (some seem to frown on the ideas of modes here)

...

When I am sitting here actually playing "in style" and listening to the song, I am hearing almost exclusively G pentatonic...

I very rarely hear the F# (that is the differing note between G and D pentatonic) in the solos, it's perfectly playable and is in fact the first note of the vocal melody. The note F (the b7 in G or b3 in D) is often used much like a blue note and seems to appear fairly regularly over the D chord, it might be where some "hear" D minor pentatonic, but that doesn't seem to be the "sound" typically...

Both pentatonic scales (G and D) avoid the note C (despite there being a C chord in the progression), perfectly playable "in style" but seems to be largely "avoided" or to add a kind of "blue" touch to it much like the note "F" as above.

You might consider a "target" tone approach as you improvise in this style...if G pentatonic for instance, you might be targeting the G,B,D (notice though that if thinking D pentatonic G is not a part of that scale ) on the G chord; E and G on the C chord (there's that characteristic hammer-on (or bend D to E then play G) D,E,G for instance) (again, notice that if thinking D pentatonic the note G is replaced by F# which I don't hear very often) and A and D on the D chord, maybe F# if you are playing D pentatonic (it can sound ok) or the F or between on the D chord.

...

I think this thread shows that there is some ambiguity between the D and the G tonalities to many ears, the use of primarily pentatonic materials reinforces that. It is that that in part (along with the relentless rhythm of the notes) which gives this style it's "sound" and it may be worth playing off of that with both pentatonics as LS seem to do.

How do I think of it to produce this "sound"...well, I have previously confessed that I "think" of it in G, primarily pentatonic with some bluesy like F (usually bent, often inbetween F and F#) and C notes thrown in for good measure occasionally. I will occassionally play off the individual chords, so and that's where I'd be more likely to play a straight F#. But, I am able to hear both at once and play with that aspect of things for the required effect.

For me, that seems to produce the required "effect" more than the D pentatonic approach which is very similar but I tend to find the F# not as much to my liking as the note G which is predominant in the progression (in the G chord for 50%, and in the C chord for another 25%!).

From these kinds of points, you can divine what "key" I tend to "hear" it in and why (G major which includes the notes both C and F#)...when you hear that live ending (F-C-G) on G it sounds reasonably "at home". I tend to hear it as a V-IV-I cadence and with the Cadd2 sounding a bit like a V7 with the 7th in the bass, as I have suggested "elsewhere".

I think the "werewolves of london" analogy is an instructive thing to bring up...same chords, similar melody, but I suspect most might hear that in G a little less than SHA.

Then again, I can just as easily hear SHA as in D and you could make it sound just as at home if they had gone F-C-D to end it...try it and see. You can play it with D pentatonic. I think the note choices for interests sake would acknowledge this and mix it up a little with some touches of other stuff (a bit of F'n'C perhaps)...mixing it up might be the name of the "game" with a tune like this.

...

All that said, and I live a lot further south than Alabama...it can be a fun tune to play, but one can't help but cringe a little and worry someone might hear it...like some dirty little secret. The song and style has differing meanings in different cultures I suspect, personally I never really took to it back in the 70's and I still am not keen on it (but then I wasn't that keen on Neil Young either...hahha). I can see that it's popular and it is kind of a "right of passage" for most of us, so even if cringing a little, you may as well suck it in and have some fun with it.

Fortunately for me it's very rare to hear SHA except in some hollywood movie like Con Air, if they want a bit of redneck on the radio they invariably play "copperhead road" and if the DJ needs a toilet break you might occasionally hear "freebird"!

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by ddewerd

Ok, you got me on the # of chords, I was really thinking about the progression. But semantics aside, it doesn't change my original thought of the last line ending on a D or a G




Listen to the live version

ending starts about 5:10



Cheers,
Doug

You convinced me. I play bluesy D mixolydian sounding solos over the chords and I would write it in "D", but it's pretty clear that Skynyrd intended it to be a "G" tune and the constant G major solo motiff, contrary to my own solo choices, confirms that they wanted it to be in "G". "Werewolves of London, so to speak.
OK, you've won me over. Henceforth I'll grudgingly allow that "Sweet Home Alabama" has been written by Lynyrd Skynyrd in "G". If I'd been in the band, everybody would be scambling for D minor pentatonic blues licks, but you make a case that proves your point beyond a reasonable doubt.
I concede. SHA is weirdly and ironically in "G". Well played. Doug.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by strat a various

I concede. SHA is weirdly and ironically in "G". Well played. Doug.

The ironian mode?

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by strat a various

You convinced me. I play bluesy D mixolydian sounding solos over the chords and I would write it in "D", but it's pretty clear that Skynyrd intended it to be a "G" tune and the constant G major solo motiff, contrary to my own solo choices, confirms that they wanted it to be in "G". "Werewolves of London, so to speak.
OK, you've won me over. Henceforth I'll grudgingly allow that "Sweet Home Alabama" has been written by Lynyrd Skynyrd in "G". If I'd been in the band, everybody would be scambling for D minor pentatonic blues licks, but you make a case that proves your point beyond a reasonable doubt.
I concede. SHA is weirdly and ironically in "G". Well played. Doug.

Now wait a minute. Now's the time for the great Rock anecdote, which someone else will have to supply. The way it goes is the original soloist, pardon my ignorance, said later that he used the "wrong" scale and didn't realize it 'til later. How does that story go?

And I'll add one thing, to stay consistent with Strato's claim I don't agree with anything he says (not true, Bro!), that even if Skynyrd thought it was in G, it is still in D. The intention of the artist is not controlling. What it is is what it is.

[warmingtone]

The intention of the artist is not controlling. What it is is what it is.

Absolutely...I can hear it both ways, I prefer G myself as posted, I can "bend" my ear to D just as well, I prefer the G note over the 75% of the progression that it appears and D major pentatonic won't provide...I think that is what LS is hearing as well. There is only one note different after all.

It's interesting too that the F-C change thing can be heard or interpreted differently in light of the key thing as I mentioned. You could have ended the song as F-C-D as effectively as F-C-G as they did.

Dare I say these are typical modal "bVII" cadences and the F could be heard as a bVII of G or the C chord as a bVII of D...again the ambiguity.

Playing with this ambiguity as I suggested and mixing things up is probably the most rewarding approach...but people hear things as they do. Personally, I prefer to be able to be a little less dogmatic and just be open to things being potentially ambiguous perhaps, or at least be able to play things that can shed an interesting different perspective. If I were(hmmm seriously) to have to play this song with another soloist, I may trade off with one of us playing more G pentatonic and the other more D pentatonic for a bit of a subtle change, they are after all so similar.

"Kooper simply didn't like the solo because it wasn't in the key of D. He probably would've loved Steve Gaines' solo on the live album. As great as Gaines was, I was always surprised that he couldn't "hear" the real key. And to compound Kooper's error, he played the song for Mike Bloomfield and Bloomfield laughed when he heard it. "That guy played the solo in the wrong key!"

And yet...people love the live version...so, the approach doesn't matter that much when you are dealing with pentatonics, it clearly doesn't sound that bad either way...well any worse than any other mid seventies extended solo w**kfest! :)

[Leon Grizzard]

Isn't the melody, such as it is, kind of like this:

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
-11----9----------------11----9-------------
------------12-9-12-----------------12-9--12-
---------------------12---------------------
--------------------------------------------
 Sweet home Al a bam a, where skies are   blue

D major pentatonic; ends on D. I agree that the D major pentonic scale doesn't work so well by itself with the chords, because of the long G duration, and there is no G note in the D major pentatonic. And if you had to choose one and only one pentatonic scale, G major pentatonic might be better because it has both D and G. But that doesn't mean the song is in G. I've never played this song in a band, but if I noodle around on it, using D and G major pentatonics seems to get the job done better than just one or the other. But the melody of the song is D.

[ddewerd]

I'm glad that this little portion of this thread has come up with some very interesting interpretations. I am primarily a pentatonic style player, although I'm trying very hard to break out of that box (pun intended).

The comments here are really valuable to me, and I plan to pick them apart to see what I can learn. I am mostly self taught, although I have a "reasonable" backing in basic theory. But I just don't have the scales/modes/keys/CAGED/etc thing ingrained into my brain like some of you folks who have really studied this stuff.

So I appreciate the comments on my part of this thread, and I really hope to learn something extra for my arsenal.

Cheers,
Doug

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

Isn't the melody, such as it is, kind of like this:

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
-11----9----------------11----9-------------
------------12-9-12-----------------12-9--12-
---------------------12---------------------
--------------------------------------------
 Sweet home Al a bam a, where skies are   blue

D major pentatonic; ends on D. I agree that the D major pentonic scale doesn't work so well by itself with the chords, because of the long G duration, and there is no G note in the D major pentatonic. And if you had to choose one and only one pentatonic scale, G major pentatonic might be better because it has both D and G. But that doesn't mean the song is in G. I've never played this song in a band, but if I noodle around on it, using D and G major pentatonics seems to get the job done better than just one or the other. But the melody of the song is D.

That's a very unusual perspective. G is indeed in the D major scale. The D pent major excludes the G but, so what! G is the 4th note in the scale and playing a D pent major without it is almost criminal! It's the note that adds the "suspension" to the D. But the song, in my opinion is definitely approached from G.

This is where these pent scales and short cuts hurt guitar players. If we were first taught the major scale, and then taught that the pent major is derived by using 5 (pent) notes from the major scale, we would realize that it's quite alright to throw a G into a D pent major scale.

But then this starts getting into other areas that may only serve to cloud the issue further.

[Leon Grizzard]

I understand - I was just playing "what major pentatonic" game. The solo seems to need that major pentatonic sound.

[klasaine]

Geez. A guy goes off to work and look what he misses.
I played "Takin' Care of business" last night , which is another one of those progs (though it goes back to the I). I don't know, I played min penta/blues - ?
SHA for me is still 'D' due to the melody being in D.
I play over the changes.
Ed King plays over the changes too.
However you want to think of it so that you play a good solo ... cool.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

Isn't the melody, such as it is, kind of like this:

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
-11----9----------------11----9-------------
------------12-9-12-----------------12-9--12-
---------------------12---------------------
--------------------------------------------
 Sweet home Al a bam a, where skies are   blue

D major pentatonic; ends on D. I agree that the D major pentonic scale doesn't work so well by itself with the chords, because of the long G duration, and there is no G note in the D major pentatonic. And if you had to choose one and only one pentatonic scale, G major pentatonic might be better because it has both D and G. But that doesn't mean the song is in G. I've never played this song in a band, but if I noodle around on it, using D and G major pentatonics seems to get the job done better than just one or the other. But the melody of the song is D.

That's right. What gets me is that the song is clearly a very D-like tune. If I play over the changes,(unless I want to mimic Lynyrd Skynyrd,) I'd play bluesy licks in D, but It's obvious by the ending and the stubborness of the solo licks in the performances I've listened to, that the composers have it in mind to be "G" tune. You can't overthink folk music, and rock n roll, country, and blues are all folk musics.
I was over analyzing and I ignored the intentions of the performers who established the voice of the tune. Examining the video closely trumped a 30+year old memory of playing the tune in the 70s.

[Telakaster]

Certs is a breath mint!
Certs is a candy mint!
Stop! You're both right.
Certs is two,(click) two,(click) two mints in one!

[ddewerd]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

Isn't the melody, such as it is, kind of like this:

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
-11----9----------------11----9-------------
------------12-9-12-----------------12-9--12-
---------------------12---------------------
--------------------------------------------
 Sweet home Al a bam a, where skies are   blue

So just an interesting observation...

On the last note (D) against "blue", the G chord is played as a little riff (repeated several times).

-------
-------
-------
-------
-----0-
-0h2---
-------

So that hammers the 3rd of the G and then up to the D.

It really is two mints in one

Cheers,
Doug

[warmingtone]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard View Post
Isn't the melody, such as it is, kind of like this:

Code:

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
-11----9----------------11----9-------------
------------12-9-12-----------------12-9--12-
---------------------12---------------------
--------------------------------------------
Sweet home Al a bam a, where skies are blue

Hmmm...before I launch into anything further, and while I struggle to find a transcription from the huge pile of "never to be played" material here...can people actually confirm the note A on alabam-A against the actual song.

I have been trying and I tend to hear a G note there or B...might be a biased ear on my part, all the same. When I try and actually sing the A against the G chord it makes a 9th...quite nice, but difficult for me to hear conclusively.

EDIT...so far I have found transcriptions that have it as a B note heavily slurred

I was over analyzing and I ignored the intentions of the performers who established the voice of the tune. Examining the video closely trumped a 30+year old memory of playing the tune in the 70s.

Analysis does not rely on the performers intentions but the reality of the music itself...there has been a lot of assumptions against quite extensive analytical argument against staunch "just is" dogma IMHO!

[Donnie55]

If its based in blues , but it is a major scale. Use the relative minor. From any root chord ( major ) move 3 steps down ,,,,,If its in G play the Em pentatonic it will fit.

[warmingtone]

Ok...so I have found the "official" sheet music from Universal MCA here that confirms what I am tending to actually hear...

F#(F),E,D,B,D,G

(I seem to hear that last G as a B slurred down in the performance a bit)

http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/0532464/details.html

as opposed to the suggested...

F#,E,D,B,D,A

would people like to refer to the music to confirm this?

[warmingtone]

Well...what matters is that there are valuable illustrations of how assumptions and ones "ear" may cloud the process of things like transcribing which is continually hammered home. On a more basic level, the idea that perhaps a tune starts on a chord it is I or for that matter if it ends on one.

While this song is in G major (or at least theres some reluctant acknowledgement that perhaps it is), and in terms of the melody, if the alabama spells out a g triad over a G chord at the end of the main line...well there's a clue. If in fact it ended on an A, well that would lend more support to hearing it as D, or perhaps if you expect it to be in D you will "hear" that A note even if it isn't there because assumptions and the hearing of the "key" would make that an "expectation" (even if it contradicts the harmony).

Also, it's at odds with recent posts...to hear it as "in D" it would require the acknowledgment of the "mixolydian" mode, modal theory being put up for ridicule even if appropriate. Clearly it is possible to hear this progression (not this song) "in D" but not "D major". If not major but mixolydian, you are looking at a different "tonality" and a different set of rules apply.

The lack of functional harmony (a V or V7 A major chord) would not be uncommon in this way...and even if it did end on a G, in modal work a tune need not necessarily end on the tonic. Maybe on could learn some more about such theory and understanding.

There may be some insight to where "jazz chord theory" may not be the most appropriate.

It is possible to play off every chord, but it is unlikely to produce such an obvious pentatonic sound as is intended. Sure chord tones and such are very important, but there is a lot more to this kind of thing, transcribing and writing, constructing solos and the like than has routinely put forward, often supported only by derision and not academic rigour.

Perhaps it speaks to the use of pentatonics or where a pentatonic approach has resulted in some serious deficiencies. There's nothing wrong with pentatonics, but they have a characteristic sound of major second and minor third intervals...if you know this, perhaps people might start to "hear it".

G is the 4th note in the scale and playing a D pent major without it is almost criminal!

an opinion, but by adding the 4th degree you are introducing both a semitone interval...a small change like that can seriously effect the "pentatonic" sound.

It matters because it is an excellent example of a lot of things, not the least that you need to the approach actual material without assumptions and preconceptions, even simple stuff like this and listen with a open ear and a tool kit of various "possibilities"...otherwise it just perpetuates the appalling lack of quality that is presented to the guitar student and player.

When I have put in to these discussions, I didn't rely on someone elses transcription or the appearance of a "key signature", I didn't need the original artists perspective...music should be able to speak for itself...I have actually played the stuff I post and make comment on what I hear, not a 30 year old memory, perhaps 30 years ago I might have thought of it in D as well...there is a D pedal tone throughout afterall...but I know enough now not to let that colour my conclusions.

Also, that if one does "hear" things so dogmatically one way, that such assertions should be supported so that we can all learn and hear things in different or even "correct" ways...this should be capable of a reasonable discussion without derision or "qualifications" being put up as the only reason for an opinion, even the "intentions of the originators" is not sufficient "proof"...if they are not around can not the music speak for itself, does that make any analysis "suspect" or impossible?

It's important that people understand these things if they are to take the advice to "transcribe" and not to take anything on face value.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by warmingtone

Also, that if one does "hear" things so dogmatically one way, that such assertions should be supported so that we can all learn and hear things in different or even "correct" ways...this should be capable of a reasonable discussion without derision or "qualifications" being put up as the only reason for an opinion, even the "intentions of the originators" is not sufficient "proof"...if they are not around can not the music speak for itself, does that make any analysis "suspect" or impossible?

It's important that people understand these things if they are to take the advice to "transcribe" and not to take anything on face value.

I think we agree that no one has 'the' definitive code on perception - certainly not in a discussion about music in this context.

One is unwise to dismiss the opinion of another even if that opinion seems myopic and unsupported by anything other than their own experience - One might question it though...



Transcribing is another matter altogether - I hope Im not misrepresenting what you have said here Warmingtone - but I dont see transcription as being optional. Although it varies hugely in the way people do it - transcription to me is what happens when I take the music I listen to seriously enough to want to play it myself - and learn from it.

The proof that transcribing is an essential part of the job for any musician working outside of the Western Classical paradigm is deep within the learning systems of all those other musics historically - whether its the way master drummers in Senegal teach their students , or the way blues guitarists mimic their heroes.

Pedagogically, and whatever other names you want to give it - transcribing is the cornerstone of any aural tradition. I don't see it as a process of just writing music by ear or even just playing it by ear - although it's both of things in my book. Its an ethos of realising the music of your tradition(s) by perception - understanding it by both listening to it and then pursuing whatever path is necessary to assimilate it - singing, mimicking, writing - improvising.


Now people have different ways of doing it thats for sure - theres no code on that, although I'd say that singing what you hear is an up front must for any player, regardless of how bad you think you are at it.

It's just simply part of exercising some curiosity about whatever you listen to and I was doing it for years before I'd even the heard the word 'transcribe'

What I'm saying is , I'll always advise students to transcribe in the full awareness that its the right thing to do - and don't let the word 'transcribe' deter anyone from actually doing it - if you're singing something and you want to hear how it sounds on the guitar -or vice versa - there's one great way of doing it right there..