Does Anyone (Not) Think about Modes This Way?

[ddewerd]

Lots of discussion around modes lately...

I understand the concept of modes and where they come from, but I don't directly incorporate it into my thinking when I play.

Maybe it's because I was taught a long time ago (right or wrong) the traditional way of learning to solo - minor pentatonic first position, go back 3 frets and change root notes and it's major pentatonic. Of course I learned these in all positions up and down the fretboard, and now try to incorporate some CAGED type stuff too.

But the way I think about modes is maybe over simplified, but it works (kind of I guess) for me. I still link it back to the major/minor pentatonics, but approach it as what "extra" notes can I add in, and when. This also works for changing the key scale against the chords - i.e. from a I to a IV, just shift everything down a string. For instance, some times I'll add a 6th into a minor pent solo, but it doesn't always work right - it has to be in the context of the chord changes (like the over Gary Moore's Still Got the Blues). For me, it's kind of like visually overlaying multiple patterns against the major/minor pent, and then adding what I call the "flavor notes". I call a flavor note whatever gives a chord its characteristic sound - e.g. major or minor 3rd, +5, etc., or provides a certain tension neeing to be resolved.

Then I wrap all of this against the chord progression, and I get a collection of "legally admissable" (in the context of the chords/progression) extra notes I can play.

I know I'm changing to different modes, but I can't articulate what those are. I suppose a good exercise for me would be to map out the major and minor pents, and then add in my "extra possible notes" and then match it up against what mode it is.

But in a way that almost seems too much. It's easier for me to think "add or replace this note" when playing xx chord than it is to think "shift to a different mode" for xx chord.

Maybe it's all really the same thing. I am primarily self taught, but with quite a bit (at least recently) self study of theory. I guess that's part of the problem of self study - you never really know if you've got it right, and you can't ask a video a question.

Anyways, just some random musings on my part.

Cheers,
Doug

[sonserve]

That is interesting. I will be watching this thread, maybe I will learn something.

[Dr.TeleD]

Just working my way through the CAGED Cracked DVD lesson. I've been using that but augmenting it with The BEAD method that places emphasis on intervals. Between the two, I'm hoping to seamlessly create solos ala Brad Paisley.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by ddewerd

Lots of discussion around modes lately...

I understand the concept of modes and where they come from, but I don't directly incorporate it into my thinking when I play.

Maybe it's because I was taught a long time ago (right or wrong) the traditional way of learning to solo - minor pentatonic first position, go back 3 frets and change root notes and it's major pentatonic. Of course I learned these in all positions up and down the fretboard, and now try to incorporate some CAGED type stuff too.

But the way I think about modes is maybe over simplified, but it works (kind of I guess) for me. I still link it back to the major/minor pentatonics, but approach it as what "extra" notes can I add in, and when. This also works for changing the key scale against the chords - i.e. from a I to a IV, just shift everything down a string. For instance, some times I'll add a 6th into a minor pent solo, but it doesn't always work right - it has to be in the context of the chord changes (like the over Gary Moore's Still Got the Blues). For me, it's kind of like visually overlaying multiple patterns against the major/minor pent, and then adding what I call the "flavor notes". I call a flavor note whatever gives a chord its characteristic sound - e.g. major or minor 3rd, +5, etc., or provides a certain tension neeing to be resolved.

Then I wrap all of this against the chord progression, and I get a collection of "legally admissable" (in the context of the chords/progression) extra notes I can play.

I know I'm changing to different modes, but I can't articulate what those are. I suppose a good exercise for me would be to map out the major and minor pents, and then add in my "extra possible notes" and then match it up against what mode it is.

But in a way that almost seems too much. It's easier for me to think "add or replace this note" when playing xx chord than it is to think "shift to a different mode" for xx chord.

Maybe it's all really the same thing. I am primarily self taught, but with quite a bit (at least recently) self study of theory. I guess that's part of the problem of self study - you never really know if you've got it right, and you can't ask a video a question.

Anyways, just some random musings on my part.

Cheers,
Doug

I treat modes more or less exactly like you do..."extra notes" I can use when and where I choose. I essentially have only two scales...Major and Minor I'm guessing you are kinda the same way?

[ddewerd]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

I treat modes more or less exactly like you do..."extra notes" I can use when and where I choose. I essentially have only two scales...Major and Minor I'm guessing you are kinda the same way?

yup, pretty much

for the longest time I had the major and minor pents burned into my brain. I've been trying to get out of that, but the more I do, the more I see it's just variations off of what I already know

Cheers,
Doug

[jamester]

I think that's a very good way to approach modes, actually. After all, they are just basically one or two note variations of the "Parent Scales".

The most important thing is to learn them as their own scales and flavors, and NOT to think of them as simply "starting from a different scale degree". Natural Minor, Dorian, Phrygian are all "minor" scales, so learn their individual colors. Like you said about tension, I think in terms of brighter/darker. Dorian is a brighter minor sound because of its raised 6th; Phrygian is darker because of it's lowered 2nd. Much like how Royal and Navy are both shades of blue...

[Larry F]

I'm working on a project that characterizes blues in this kind of way. I start with minor pent, because that is far and away the most common pitch configuration in the Chicago strain of blues. Then I add the 6th, then 2nd, then major 3rd, then b5, then raised 7. Listening to such players as Otis Rush, Buddy Guy, Luther Allison, and Earl Hooker, I hear them use these notes as substitutes for their neighbors. For example, in C blues, the note A replaces Bb and D replaces Eb. I seldom hear runs of C D Eb F Eb, Instead I hear C D F Eb. Or F Eb F A G Bb C. This way they avoid sounding like scales. E and F#/Gb are a little different, but I have to run.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by jamester

I think that's a very good way to approach modes, actually. After all, they are just basically one or two note variations of the "Parent Scales".

The most important thing is to learn them as their own scales and flavors, and NOT to think of them as simply "starting from a different scale degree". Natural Minor, Dorian, Phrygian are all "minor" scales, so learn their individual colors. Like you said about tension, I think in terms of brighter/darker. Dorian is a brighter minor sound because of its raised 6th; Phrygian is darker because of it's lowered 2nd. Much like how Royal and Navy are both shades of blue...

Phrygian can be a lot of fun because you can slowly melt from blues/rock into Spanish/Arabic stylings and from there...oh boy!....you can go anywhere!

[colinsthename]

I tend to do this exact same thing when i'm playing. I've played off of the major/minor pentatonic for so long that it's hard to completely break free and use a different mode or scale, and I end up just getting lost. If I use the pentatonics plus any extra notes from the chord tones or major/minor scale, everything seems much easier.

[ddewerd]

[QUOTE=jamester;2014410]
and NOT to think of them as simply "starting from a different scale degree". QUOTE]

yeah, that was always the part that threw me. Most stuff I've seen starts to explain modes by using the C natural scale and then using the same fingerings (and fret positions) and just moves the root. That just doesn't fit into my brain well. It didn't focus on the intervals enough.

Cheers,
Doug

[DavyA]

This just seems confusing too me! The major scale is the mother of everything...yes even pentatonics! The modes are based on the major scales....I like what ddeward is doing. I guess I just never even think modes in this situation. This is just me, but I just think intervals. I think that modes just get everyone confused...and overthinking the whole thing...

Have Fun!

[jamester]

Originally Posted by DavyA

This just seems confusing too me! The major scale is the mother of everything...yes even pentatonics! The modes are based on the major scales....

Not to be picky, but only the chromatic scale is the mother of all; otherwise scales are just formulas of whole steps and half steps...or larger intervals, even.

Modes have what is often a confusing duality; while they can be seen as "coming from" a parent scale (and not just the major scale), they are also full scales in their own right, and ultimately should be learned as such.

For example, a common mode in jazz is the 7th degree of the Melodic Minor scale, as it contains every altered tension - b9,#9,#11,b13 along with a major 3rd and a b7, so it is the quintessential scale to use over Dom7 chords when a lot of tension and dissonance is desired. It's usually either called the Altered Scale or Super Locrian, and even though it comes out of Melodic Minor it has nothing to do with it as a scale, musically.

[strat a various]

There are a lot of scales, modes are some of them. If the word "mode" had never been invoked, these scales would still be unique in their relationship to the major scale. We, therefore, can't think of the modes as simply "7 of the many possible scales" because of the major scale note order.
They get inordinate attention not just because they are alter-egos of the Major scale, but because they are easily memorized. Personally, I think modes are more important as useful ways of attaining a command of the major scale all over the neck, than as handy scales to plug into predictable chords.
Moving pentatonic scales around the guitar is a limiting way to play, but the result can be attractive, since it "keeps us honest" in a folk music kind of way. I'm including Blues and Country in the category of folk music.
It's easy to over-analyze scales and modes in an effort to create ... creation should mostly be "by ear", but if a Jazz player wants to properly play "Modaly", he has to stay inside the Mode most of the time, much like a Blues player stays in the pentatonic "box" most of the time, or the Flamenco player rides the altered Phrygian scale.
Modes create nothing, but they illustrate much.

[warmingtone]

A lot to be said for this kind of approach...pentatonics can be powerful tools.

Of course, a pentatonic just means a five note scale of intervals, you can make up man others than the major and minor forms.

Also, there are some "modes" or patterns of notes that you won't necessarily get with pentatonics alone, even with the "additional notes" technique. The phrygian mode is a good example where there is that prominent minor second degree that gives it that arabic/spanish flavour.

The other thing about "modal" playing and thinking is to abandon the idea that it is just the major scale on a different root idea...they are potentially new harmonic environments unto themselves, a key centre as valid as the major or minor keys.

The other thing is that there are scales that do not conform to the major or minors or modes pattern of intervals. scales with b5, b6, min and maj 3rds, maj a dn dominant 7ths are all useful but some not available within the pentatonic structure.

To take the way of thinking to the next step, it might be worth experimenting with not just adding notes to the pentatonics, but replacing some of the five notes as well as adding notes.

One thing I enjoy doing with pentatonics is combining them or superimposing one over the key...you can make some interesting sounds by adding Am and Bbminor pentatonics for instance for a very dissonant sound (perhaps in anticipation of a chord change) or just play the Bb pentatonic itself in a "sideslipping" move. Adding Bm to Am gives you the notes of the "Aeolian mode" (adds in B and F#) for instance, in combination, or by playing bm pentatonic over an Am chord.

One good and useful way of getting out of just "hearing" pentatonic scales, or major/minor modes...is to try a few symetrical scales like the whole tone (two frets between each note) or diminished arpeggios (3 frets between each note) or diminished scales (1fret,2fret steps)...you wont get these kinds of sound from pentatonics.

Still, the pentatonics do have an important part in most conventional melodies and shouldn't be underestimated. As for modes, well, some can be achieved simply by adding notes but it is worth exploring them a little more perhaps. A lot depends what you wish to play and what you are looking for musically...there's still plenty of good music in those five note combinations yet!

[brokenjoe]

Years ago, I spent a fairly good deal of time with modes. But, as with many other scales/ideas/concepts, I forgot them. What I mean is, is that I didn't actually forget them, but I don't think about them anymore when playing.

I'll play a pentatonic solo, and slip in and out of different bits of different modes without even realizing I've done it. It all depends upon what, and how you are trying to say something.

I know a bunch of scales too, but I don't remember the names of them. I'm sure it would come to me if I thought about it for a moment -but I don't.

Modes, like scales can be a lot of fun, and can really help open up your ear for ideas. Learn 'em, and then forget 'em!

[fakeocaster]

Were all comfortable with differant approaches and I think the idea of adding other notes to the pentatonics is more practical than worrying about modes.Ater all when the chord changes you could argue that you have to change modes.Ive allways felt that this complicates things. I believe its better to start with say a pentatonic and notes from the relevant chord thats playing, and most importantly listen and experiment as much as possible to find what sounds good to you.


If it sounds good its good

[Budda]

I almost never think of "Modes". To me, Modes are the result of playing within the context of a Musical Situation. Not a starting point. So, maybe after playing something I might think, "Oh, that was a Dorian type of thing, wasn't it?"

I think more of a Central Tonality, generally. And often, in a similar fashion to how the OP lays things out.

And I find the Chromatic Scale to be very useful, also. But, I definately don't think of it as any type of "Master Pattern". There are far too many other Notes to explore. For example, what I call the "Thirteenth Note". It's a Rest. Silence can be golden, for sure.
Also, when you're playing your "Fifth Fret, Blues Box Stuff", ever bend that C Note, 5th. Fret G String just a little? There's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. What Note is that one? Is there more than one there?

Anyway, for me, Modes can be useful fo Analysis. But, that's about it.

But, I may be in the minority on this.

[FatTeleTom]

To me, it doesn't sound like the OP is really using a modal approach, or really "thinking of modes" at all.

I don't mean to suggest that you should be doing anything differently, just that it doesn't sound to me like you are approaching soloing from a particularly "modal" frame of mind.

Really, these are all just schemes for being aware of what will sound good over a given chord or progression of chords (or, better yet, knowing what notes will produce the sounds you want to produce over those changes).

Different organizational schemes may work better for different folks, but often have the same end result. On the other hand, for a given player, trying a different way of thinking may open new doors.

Whether you think "pentatonic, with different flavor notes depending on the chord", or "playing mode x for chord y", or "focus on the chord tones and altered notes", or whatever, you may still end up hitting the same notes. Or, maybe not.

My blues approach is similar to what the OP describes (i.e. modifying pentatonics to fit the chord), but again, I wouldn't describe that as a modal approach.

When I (attempt) to play jazzier stuff, I tend to think chord tones or chord/scale relationships. The latter is more what I would describe as a model approach. For example, given a "ii V I" in G, you might think A Dorian over the Am, D mixo (or an altered scale of some kind) over the D7, and G major (or maybe a Lydian mode) over the G.

[rangercaster]

Years ago, I spent a fairly good deal of time with modes. But, as with many other scales/ideas/concepts, I forgot them. What I mean is, is that I didn't actually forget them, but I don't think about them anymore when playing.

+ 1000 !!! this is the key to progressing as a player ...

[jhundt]

Does Anyone (Not) Think about Modes This Way?

me! I don't think about modes at all. A little too mathematical and Greek for my little mind... we tried to get into this stuff back in the 60's but there were too many names to remember.