Is There an "Easy" Way to Learn Jazz?

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Larry F

First, don't take what I am about to say as a challenge or disagreement. I am extremely interested in how people think of certain things. One of those things is the slur (a slur up is played by a hammer-on; slur down is the pull-off). Do you mean to say that Wes's playing was great, except for moments when he slurred instead of attacked with his thumb? Does this give the aural impression of sloppiness? Again, I am not trying to criticize your point of view. I find the relation of attacking a note with the right hand vs slurring a note via hammer-on or pull-off interesting. Some people don't like all attacks, while others do not like any slurs--are you in this camp?

This is research for me, not a challenge to the post.

I don't have a problem with sloppy. I only have a problem with wrong notes. Wes never plays wrong notes. It's funny, Mark Whitfield will not only hit a lot of clams live, he will leave some of them in his recordings. I think his logic is that he got the feel he wanted, leaving in a few wrong notes is worth it. He came by and played a venue I worked quite a lot with an organist that I played with often. He swings soulfully, but doesn't mind the stray "oops!" No offense intended to Mark, he's a good player.
Wes, even live, even when he was rushing a little and showboating, I've never heard him play a wrong note, ever.
Slurs can be not only hammer-on or pull-off, but hitting a note and moving it to another note. Call it what you will, it's all Wes' way of playing fluidly at challenging tempos with thumb only.
Is it sloppy? It sounds a little sloppy to me, the volumes of the notes are not even and some are implied, almost just a thud, but you know what note it was supposed to be.
Lots of Blues players are sloppy, but they cop the feel they need, and a few intonation issues or muffled notes is worth the sacrifice. As long as they don't land on too many wrong notes, I can live with the roughness.

[Larry F]

strat a v, I'm really trying to ask something else. In writing classical music for performers, I use slurs to create certain effects. None of these kinds of players are ever demeaned for slurring, it's a normal part of music-making. On the guitar, thought, I sense a kind of criticism leveling toward players who hammer-on and pull-off. I thought your remark about Wes was based on that view. Please, I am not trying to disagree or say someone is better or is not. That doesn't interest me. I am trying to find out if a view that hammers and pulls is a worse level of playing than picking every note. Is a slur something to be rationalized, apologized for, evidence of down-to-earth realism, or it is part of phrasing, no more, no less?

[jazztele]

i think what strat's saying is that sometimes those hammer on and pull offs or slides aren't executed cleanly in wes' playing. but his choice of note is spot on.

[strat a various]

I'm not demeaning Wes, I'm saying that if you listen to him, he can get sloppy sounding, compared to say George Benson, who isn't as good of a Jazz player, and also has unorthodox techniques, but his picking and execution tend to be more meticulous.
Wes chases the notes, and catches the perfect notes. Sometimes he grabs them squarely, sometimes, he gets them by the tail, sometimes just a handful of fur, but he always picks the right ones, the best ones.

[brewwagon]

exercising subtle execution and unothodox techniques


i like that

excellent writing

i'll have to apply to my playing what i learn from you all

thank you

bw

[jamester]

There's no such thing as wrong notes in jazz; if there were, we wouldn't be able to improvise anything other than pre-planned phrases in a paint-by-numbers way. The essence of improvisation is a sense of 'going for it' and trying to create something new (out of well-practiced components). This all but ensures that, if done right, there will indeed be plenty of "wrong notes" i.e. unintentional or accidental or just going for something that might not pan out in the heat of the moment.

The masters (like Wes) however can take any note or phrase and make it work in the context of the tune. So who's to judge whether a lick or phrase that's a little "out" was fully heard and conceptualized ahead of time, or just something that came out in the moment while in the process of creating a larger concept or statement? With the best improvisors it's damn near impossible to tell after the fact, because they are able to work anything out in any situation due to their talents and experience and mastery of their instrument.

If we're talking about technical flubs that's one thing, and many players (like Scofield) have been charged with being "sloppy" at times, even though their overall rhythm and timing is dead-on...but I really don't believe there are "mistakes" in jazz when talking about great improvisors.

For example:

In Kurt Rosenwinkel's tune Minor Blues (on the album The Next Step) he's doing a fast arpeggio climb up the neck and wonks the open D string which sticks out like a sore thumb (the tune's in Ebm). It sounds very unintentional, so what does he do? He hits it again of course, then again as the starting note of another arpeggio climb which he executes perfectly with a wickedly melodic ending high up the neck.

Was that a "mistake"? Maybe, but as we all know it's not the note, it's what you do with it. Getting into trouble and finding a way to recover is to me, one of the most exciting aspects of improvisation. I think Kurt feels the same way, and that's why that take made the album. (or else they didn't have the money to keep recording new takes haha)

When a soloist doesn't do anything for me, it's usually because it's too "safe" regardless of how good the notes and phrases sound. Wes certainly never felt safe or predictable to me!

Definitely NOT trying to argue with Stratavarious here, just trying to give another angle on the idea of "wrong notes" in jazz...

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by jamester

There's no such thing as wrong notes in jazz; if there were, we wouldn't be able to improvise anything other than pre-planned phrases in a paint-by-numbers way. The essence of improvisation is a sense of 'going for it' and trying to create something new (out of well-practiced components). This all but ensures that, if done right, there will indeed be plenty of "wrong notes" i.e. unintentional or accidental or just going for something that might not pan out in the heat of the moment.

The masters (like Wes) however can take any note or phrase and make it work in the context of the tune. So who's to judge whether a lick or phrase that's a little "out" was fully heard and conceptualized ahead of time, or just something that came out in the moment while in the process of creating a larger concept or statement? With the best improvisors it's damn near impossible to tell after the fact, because they are able to work anything out in any situation due to their talents and experience and mastery of their instrument.

If we're talking about technical flubs that's one thing, and many players (like Scofield) have been charged with being "sloppy" at times, even though their overall rhythm and timing is dead-on...but I really don't believe there are "mistakes" in jazz when talking about great improvisors.

For example:

In Kurt Rosenwinkel's tune Minor Blues (on the album The Next Step) he's doing a fast arpeggio climb up the neck and wonks the open D string which sticks out like a sore thumb (the tune's in Ebm). It sounds very unintentional, so what does he do? He hits it again of course, then again as the starting note of another arpeggio climb which he executes perfectly with a wickedly melodic ending high up the neck.

Was that a "mistake"? Maybe, but as we all know it's not the note, it's what you do with it. Getting into trouble and finding a way to recover is to me, one of the most exciting aspects of improvisation. I think Kurt feels the same way, and that's why that take made the album. (or else they didn't have the money to keep recording new takes haha)

When a soloist doesn't do anything for me, it's usually because it's too "safe" regardless of how good the notes and phrases sound. Wes certainly never felt safe or predictable to me!

Definitely NOT trying to argue with Stratavarious here, just trying to give another angle on the idea of "wrong notes" in jazz...

If you think in a given measure, there are no wrong notes, or no weak notes that inhibit the musical progression of an improvisation, you are under a false impression. Artists define Art, and claiming that at any given point in a solo, any note will work is naive. The note must accomplish a musical function that meets standards acceptable by the practitioners of the relevant genre. If you play random notes over a passage, and it's a bloody mess. you can't shake your fist and say "There are no wrong notes in Jazz!" Any note can be a wrong note, and we working Jazz musicians pretty much Know them when we hear them. We also know weak player who don't exactly know what they're doing when we heart them.
You can say anything you like ... that doesn't change mistakes when they happen, and they do happen. I've seen Joe Pass make mistakes. He wasn't being dissonant, he wasn't pushing the envelope, he hit a note he wasn't intending to hit, or landed without looking, and saved the phrase be virtue of experience.

[jazztele]

i'll take the middle road, and agree and disagree;)

there may be no "wrong" notes, but there's certainly bad resolutions and notes landed on unitentionally, you know--mistakes.

[jamester]

Originally Posted by strat a various

If you think in a given measure, there are no wrong notes, or no weak notes that inhibit the musical progression of an improvisation, you are under a false impression. Artists define Art, and claiming that at any given point in a solo, any note will work is naive. The note must accomplish a musical function that meets standards acceptable by the practitioners of the relevant genre.

There is a difference between strong notes/weak notes and the phrasing thereof, and what we would usually call "mistakes".

Any note will work over any chord in any situation, given the context/strength of the phrase and the other notes surrounding it. I guarantee any master improvisor can make anything work over anything...but of course, this is getting beyond just the analysis of one note or so, into the bigger picture of the phrase or line. Which is what I was actually trying to convey, so I'm actually agreeing here...

If you play random notes over a passage, and it's a bloody mess. you can't shake your fist and say "There are no wrong notes in Jazz!"

Exactly. Which is why I doubt somebody like Mark Whitfield or Joe Pass has done this on an album. If so, tell me what albums and I'll check them out.

Any note can be a wrong note, and we working Jazz musicians pretty much Know them when we hear them. We also know weak player who don't exactly know what they're doing when we heart them.

It's not about what is or isn't a "mistake" anyways, because that can still be subjective to the listener. But a good improvisor can make anytyhing work out in the end; I'd say that's the mark of a good improvisor and the fun of the challenge of playing over tunes.

[Whirly]

"The note must accomplish a musical function that meets standards acceptable by the practitioners of the relevant genre. If you play random notes over a passage, and it's a bloody mess."

I think that spells the death of Jazz as a form. Perhaps my notes appear random, maybe I've spent years crafting that effect. You may not like what I present, many people don't like "outside" jazz, or maybe my notes will expand what's commonly considered acceptable. How can we know?

If only acceptable notes are allowed, then I guess we are done. I think we've heard them already. We could probably write a computer program to generate that stuff. No innovation required. Oh, I think I've found a name for the program. -Acceptable Jazz 09- Available on Windows and Mac. Works on Linux with wine. < Sorry, computer humor. The problem with humor is sometimes is just isn't funny. Maybe we should have professional humrests decide what's funny. -Acceptable Humor 10- I could do this all day.

/end solo

[jazztele]

yeah, but whirly, the key words in S-A-V's remark is "relevant genre." you cannot get away with playing whatever you want in every context.

there are weak (well, that's strat's nicer word, i said bad) resolutions. these are often unintentional, and they are a mistake. yes, you can make it right by what you play after it--that's essential, yes, but every player is going to screw up now and then, and just because they recovered doesn't make what they did right, it makes it work. that's improvising. the idea that you can't make mistakes in jazz is ridiculous, hand a guy who's been playing half a year a guitar, play the changes for giant steps and tell him to solo. the random mess that'll come out isn't groundbreaking jazz--it's mistakes--clams.

you can't get too esoteric about this stuff--that's the death of jazz if you ask me. it ain't rocket science--it's teachable, it's learnable, and it is it's own idiom with accepted sounds and unacceptable...and i'm not talking about outside playing--i'm talking about "square" playing, not playing the changes, etc. jazz has it's conventions just like other musics, and it doesn't ruin it that it does.

[klasaine]

That's always been an insane statement, "no bad notes in jazz". There's as many bad notes in jazz as there are in ANY other kind of music ... 12 of them, depending - ? I don't think I've ever actually heard a musician utter those words(?).
'Master' improvisers always know exactly what they can and can't do in any given situation and context - that's precisely what makes them masters.

[Whirly]

jazztele - I think I see now. Mistakes, weak, bad, I understand those. I believe you've got to play like you know what you're talking about. And, you've got to convince the listener.

But, There are well respected players who play, what I think is, just random junk. I don't want to be, and I don't want others to be, the decider of what's right. Play your junk. If you are lucky, somebody will listen and believe.

Is it possible to not make mistakes? Is there an easy way to become a 'Master?'

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Whirly

Is there an easy way to become a 'Master?'

Yeah - tried and true.
Start fairly young, 12 or 13. Take lessons form a master. Practice every day - a lot! Play and gig 3 - 6 nights a week ... for at least 25 years ... while continuing to learn and practice. Bingo - master! Easy! One just has to do it.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by jamester

Exactly. Which is why I doubt somebody like Mark Whitfield or Joe Pass has done this on an album. If so, tell me what albums and I'll check them out.


It's not about what is or isn't a "mistake" anyways, because that can still be subjective to the listener. But a good improviser can make anytyhing work out in the end; I'd say that's the mark of a good improvisor and the fun of the challenge of playing over tunes.

I'm not berating Mark, he's a good player. I'm actually respecting his decisions to leave a few errors in a recording to preserve the swing, because he was obviously happy with the overall feel. Instead of going in with a computer and cleaning things up, he's being honest.
By the way, I don't own any of his records, not my cup of tea, but he gets played on the jazz stations plenty, I hear him that way often all over the country.
Music may contain subjective elements, but any working Jazz musician can hear wrong notes when they happen, it's no mystery. You can fool 95% of the audience, but the cats who just got off the Diana Krall or Wynton Marsalis gig, and came in for an after hours drink, will catch all your wrong notes, they won't miss one.
I was playing at a little place in San Diego, Cedar Walton's rhythm section come in and hang out, sit in with us. You can bet they noted any mistakes or poor judgment calls on the part of the band, which thankfully were very few that night. Their opinions were "informed opinions." Saying "you meant to play those wrong notes ... that's Jazz", wouldn't work, so don't try it.

[jamester]

Originally Posted by klasaine

That's always been an insane statement, "no bad notes in jazz". There's as many bad notes in jazz as there are in ANY other kind of music ... 12 of them, depending - ? I don't think I've ever actually heard a musician utter those words(?).
'Master' improvisers always know exactly what they can and can't do in any given situation and context - that's precisely what makes them masters.

I don't know if this was directed at what I said earlier, but either way I'd like to clarify...

Obviously mistakes happen in life, to all of us, even the greats. A master improvisor is still human, therefore is not perfect and will make mistakes too; however they will handle it with aplomb and make it turn out just fine, because that's part of what makes them a "master" improvisor.

However it's not just about the notes, and in fact I will argue to the death that there are no wrong notes in music - jazz or otherwise - but rather improper or poor useage of them in the context of the song. When something strikes us as sounding bad, it's really not any note per se, but rather the rhythm, phrasing, articulation, duration etc...

All twelve notes are completely playable in any tune, over any given chord, I assure you. It's the understanding and execution of how to use those notes that make one a good or poor improvisor.

[jamester]

Originally Posted by strat a various

By the way, I don't own any of his records, not my cup of tea, but he gets played on the jazz stations plenty, I hear him that way often all over the country.

I have his first couple albums, they're nice but not really my tea either. My modern-day holy trinity is Scofield, Frisell and Rosenwinkel.

Music may contain subjective elements, but any working Jazz musician can hear wrong notes when they happen, it's no mystery. You can fool 95% of the audience, but the cats who just got off the Diana Krall or Wynton Marsalis gig, and came in for an after hours drink, will catch all your wrong notes, they won't miss one.
I was playing at a little place in San Diego, Cedar Walton's rhythm section come in and hang out, sit in with us. You can bet they noted any mistakes or poor judgment calls on the part of the band, which thankfully were very few that night. Their opinions were "informed opinions." Saying "you meant to play those wrong notes ... that's Jazz", wouldn't work, so don't try it.

That's very cool, and believe me I'm not arguing those points at all.

The term "mistakes" is all relative, that's all I was saying before. A missed cue, that's a mistake. Getting lost in a tune's form is a mistake, or blowing its melody when playing the head. A technical flub on the instrument, etc... But a bad solo or poor note choices in your lines is really just about needing to improve as an improvisor, and understand the language better.

As you said, you can't just say "I meant it, that's jazz" because you'll be called out on the fact that you weren't playing the tradition properly, and that's why they were deemed "wrong notes" to begin with. It in fact wasn't jazz, in that case.

I know I don't have to explain this to you, just conversing... :-)

[Telarkaster]

I think you guys are mixing up your genres: there are no bad notes in punk...

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by jamester

- but rather improper or poor usage of them in the context of the song.

Exactly. Consequently, wrong at the time and place being used.

Everything's that way.
Peanuts are good ... except while you're chewing gum.
Carpet is nice ... but not in a bathroom or kitchen.

A good improviser knows their limitations at any given time to be able to pull something off. That's dependent on many factors - them, the song, etc.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Exactly. Consequently, wrong at the time and place being used.

Everything's that way.
Peanuts are good ... except while you're chewing gum.
Carpet is nice ... but not in a bathroom or kitchen.

A good improviser knows their limitations at any given time to be able to pull something off. That's dependent on many factors - them, the song, etc.

klasaine, you have a lot more patience than I. When you have to explain what "wrong" means, with analogies, it's getting ridiculous. No one with even a passing knowledge of music, let alone Jazz, thinks that there are just notes that are disallowed, as in "no Db or G# permitted in Jazz!" All of us here must understand that "wrong" means inappropriate within context.
I think you're just butting heads with stubbornness.
I'll say this about wild experimental Jazz, when that nutty sax player goes crazy with all kinds of wailing and atonal fury, he knows what he's doing and it's still possible for him to play wrong notes. He'll know what they were, whether he'll admit it or not.
It's a shame that beginners will read someone claim that there is no such thing as a wrong note in Jazz ... Jazz has such a high standard for talent and creativity that really, wrong notes are as out of place and unacceptable in Jazz as in Classical music, wrong is wrong, and just because the performer fakes it and recovers from the error doesn't mean the mistake or bad note choice never happened.

[jamester]

Originally Posted by strat a various

Jazz has such a high standard for talent and creativity that really, wrong notes are as out of place and unacceptable in Jazz as in Classical music, wrong is wrong, and just because the performer fakes it and recovers from the error doesn't mean the mistake or bad note choice never happened.

sigh...

I never said otherwise, in fact I said everybody makes mistakes and it's a mark of the best improvisors that they can play their way out of those situations succesfully.

Maybe it is obvious that "wrong notes" mean misuse or improper/weak situational useage, ok fine...but after reading various things about only playing what's "acceptable" and such, I was simply trying to expand the conversation - not argue or be stubborn.

I'll see myself out...

[Larry F]

What about in C major playing a grace note B before a C major chord instead of the correct one, grace note G? They both have the same function as setting up a resolution on the C chord. So, some notes are wrong but not a big deal and others are a big deal.

There's a story about Wes that has him sitting in with some big name players at the time. Out of nervousness, he played his solo in the wrong key. But his phrasing was so good that his playing was accepted by these musicians.

What I am getting at is that there are some mistakes that are not very serious and there is music that is phrased so well that the very obvious mistake of being in the wrong key is overlooked.

[klasaine]

I find that 'story' about Wes particularly hard to believe. He probably had the biggest ears of any musician of his era. Or, at least the equal of any of the best.

*musicians LOVE to talk sh*t, and even denigrate themselves ... play off something un-freakin'-believable like it was nothing. Especially the really great ones. "Oh you know, I just sort of play and hope it all works out". ? Yeah, right. My wife was watching one of the rare pieces of Wes footage from those dutch TV shows. She said, "wow, he could just be making a sandwich - he makes it look so easy!"

[gremboul]

Originally Posted by craigoslo

Check out http://justinguitar.com/en/JA-000-Jazz.php for some tips on easy jazz.

his entire series on jazz is very helpful and can also be found on his youtube channel...lessons given on a nice Telecaster. PS: my experience is that some studying is required to fully understand chord construction.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Larry F

What about in C major playing a grace note B before a C major chord instead of the correct one, grace note G? They both have the same function as setting up a resolution on the C chord. So, some notes are wrong but not a big deal and others are a big deal.

There's a story about Wes that has him sitting in with some big name players at the time. Out of nervousness, he played his solo in the wrong key. But his phrasing was so good that his playing was accepted by these musicians.

What I am getting at is that there are some mistakes that are not very serious and there is music that is phrased so well that the very obvious mistake of being in the wrong key is overlooked.

I'm not buying the Wes story, either. I know he may have had to play over a tune he didn't know. Jimmy Smith was famous for throwing tunes at cats that he was sure they didn't know to mess with them, but wrong key? No way, once you play Jazz professionally with top tier players like Wes did, you're just not going to be confused about something as basic as the key.
The story must have been told wrong by a non-musician.

[ac15]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Yeah - tried and true.
Start fairly young, 12 or 13. Take lessons form a master. Practice every day - a lot! Play and gig 3 - 6 nights a week ... for at least 25 years ... while continuing to learn and practice. Bingo - master! Easy! One just has to do it.

I think this is right, but I know one musician who did all of the above, but skipped the lesson part. He plays amazingly on several instruments and sings great. He started early (gigging by 11 or 12 years old) and hasn't stopped. I guess my point is if you play, play, play (with purpose) you can achieve mastery without the technical knowledge. You just learn (by doing) to eventually make nearly any sound on your instrument that you hear in your head.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by strat a various

I'll say this about wild experimental Jazz, when that nutty sax player goes crazy with all kinds of wailing and atonal fury, he knows what he's doing and it's still possible for him to play wrong notes. He'll know what they were, whether he'll admit it or not.
It's a shame that beginners will read someone claim that there is no such thing as a wrong note in Jazz ... Jazz has such a high standard for talent and creativity that really, wrong notes are as out of place and unacceptable in Jazz as in Classical music, wrong is wrong, and just because the performer fakes it and recovers from the error doesn't mean the mistake or bad note choice never happened.

Yep. I play alot of experimental music - but I love playing bebop too - its something I share with a bunch of improvisers who are over drawing boundaries between genres of jazz because of the myopia of those who seem to forget that jazz is a process not just a product. At the same time the aesthetic of finding "what's right" at any given moment has a universal meaning in great improvised music of any kind.

I will say that the successful formation of any 'musical syntax' - whether its part of the accepted Jazz tradition through early New Orleans to New York in the 1960's , the 'fusion' of styles created by a generation fuelled by rock music and electronic music or third stream improvised music with a nod toward 20th century classical music et al.....is dependent on playing alot together.

It's as galling for me to clam a note/idea/rhythm etc in free or experimental playing as it is when Im playing 'Little suede shoes' or Milestones or one of my own tunes. The other thing is that the guys I play with know it too - because while there might be indeterminacy in the pre -structure, every moment has a choice of imperatives which your colleagues are aware of as well. But then again, Jazz just doesnt add up in most cases.

Or is it all that other music that doesnt add up?

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by strat a various

I'm not demeaning Wes, I'm saying that if you listen to him, he can get sloppy sounding, compared to say George Benson, who isn't as good of a Jazz player, and also has unorthodox techniques, but his picking and execution tend to be more meticulous.
Wes chases the notes, and catches the perfect notes. Sometimes he grabs them squarely, sometimes, he gets them by the tail, sometimes just a handful of fur, but he always picks the right ones, the best ones.

Thanks Strat -that's about as good a description as Ive ever read..

Particularly at up tempos - his solo on S.O.S ( Full House) is as funky as you get - he has that uncanny knack of stumbling right into a great place at the right time although the hands are obviously working too hard. Its also the 'weight' that he gets from playing with his thumb - when he decides to accent something , the guitar becomes a drum - and he doesn't mess around with those notes at all even though the in between stuff seems 'fluffy'

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by strat a various

It's a shame that beginners will read someone claim that there is no such thing as a wrong note in Jazz ... Jazz has such a high standard for talent and creativity that really, wrong notes are as out of place and unacceptable in Jazz as in Classical music, wrong is wrong, and just because the performer fakes it and recovers from the error doesn't mean the mistake or bad note choice never happened.

I think it was Von Karajan who 'emphasised' this point to a member of the Berlin Phil - "The right note in the wrong place is wrong" - "but at least the wrong note in the right place is ...half -right"

Sorry to post again - of course there are wrong notes - i can hear a 'wrong' note when i hear someone playing "C" on a C major chord - or eighth notes that 'swing' like 'rinky tink - rinky tink' although, in the verbal dictum of jazz education both of these can be deemed 'ok'. Its not a discussion that can be had without specific examples - where the myriad of contexts that surround a single tone can be surmised. And then, what are we achieving?
If one can accept, that great Jazz players do play 'wrong notes' (as do great Classical Players) then wrongness, is surely just a question of degree and the pre disposition of the ear that is listening.

[djinn1973]

http://www.realeasyjazz.com/blog/

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

I think it was Von Karajan who 'emphasised' this point to a member of the Berlin Phil - "The right note in the wrong place is wrong" - "but at least the wrong note in the right place is ...half -right"

Sorry to post again - of course there are wrong notes - i can hear a 'wrong' note when i hear someone playing "C" on a C major chord - or eighth notes that 'swing' like 'rinky tink - rinky tink' although, in the verbal dictum of jazz education both of these can be deemed 'ok'. Its not a discussion that can be had without specific examples - where the myriad of contexts that surround a single tone can be surmised. And then, what are we achieving?
If one can accept, that great Jazz players do play 'wrong notes' (as do great Classical Players) then wrongness, is surely just a question of degree and the pre disposition of the ear that is listening.

This is incorrect. You may play wrong notes in the forest where trees fall solo, and have no listeners at all, they are still wrong. Wrong notes happen under the fingers of the player, not in the ear of the audience. The performer knows when he has played a wrong note, unless he is a rank beginner or deluded. The external listener has nothing whatsoever to do with the correctness of notes as they are played by the performer. Audience not required.
If by "listener" you're referring to the actual player, then you really need to address the skill and musicianship of the player. Discussing wrong note choices can't mean anything 'til the player is past the point of surprising himself with notes that he can't predict, as in the player who noodles over a scale, and accidentally hits on some right notes.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by strat a various

Any note can be a wrong note, and we working Jazz musicians pretty much Know them when we hear them. We also know weak player who don't exactly know what they're doing when we heart them.
You can say anything you like ... that doesn't change mistakes when they happen, and they do happen. I've seen Joe Pass make mistakes. He wasn't being dissonant, he wasn't pushing the envelope, he hit a note he wasn't intending to hit, or landed without looking, and saved the phrase be virtue of experience.

and....

This is incorrect. You may play wrong notes in the forest where trees fall solo, and have no listeners at all, they are still wrong. Wrong notes happen under the fingers of the player, not in the ear of the audience. The performer knows when he has played a wrong note, unless he is a rank beginner or deluded. The external listener has nothing whatsoever to do with the correctness of notes as they are played by the performer. Audience not required.
If by "listener" you're referring to the actual player, then you really need to address the skill and musicianship of the player. Discussing wrong note choices can't mean anything 'til the player is past the point of surprising himself with notes that he can't predict, as in the player who noodles over a scale, and accidentally hits on some right notes.

Sorry about that vague post beforeStrat - maybe this makes more sense - but the above appears contradictory.

Um -isnt that a bit of a backflip Strat? You can hear wrong notes in Joe Pass' playing. I think after 25 years of teaching I can hear it in my students playing too... On one hand you are trivialising the role of the listener in music making and on the other referring to yourself as listener; in defining 'wrong notes'

Anyway, I dont agree with this. "Wrong notes happen under the fingers of the player, not in the ear of the audience." They surely are a product of both.
Without perception there is no music - how can there be ? the listening ear can refer to a player or a listener - both are active in the musical experience.

Musical ideas originate from artists who have perceived the world around them and other artists at work and that enables them to make music too. If you can hear 'wrong notes' in Joe Pass's playing then they are as much your creation in the pre -disposition of your 'collective and personal' perception as a listener , as his creation as a performer. He may 'err' against an accepted norm -but the definition of 'wrong' refers to the moment of perception - and creation.
Your argument relegates the listener to a passive blob in the musical dialogue - but listeners change everything about the musical experience.

I have sat on exam panels 'assessing' and listening to jazz and classical music with learned colleagues and we still all hear it differently - to define a wrong note simply because it might be a harmonic gaff holds no water at all in classical music for instance - Ive heard handfuls of notes that werent written in the score in terrific recitals because there are a few other important elements at work besides the harmony.
I agree with you that wrong is first and foremost wrong to the performer - but where did the idea of 'wrong' come from?
The pre-disposition of the listening ear ultimately is a product of one's balancing of personal perspective with collective definitions.

'Correctness' is an 'interesting word' in that regard.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

Um -isnt that a bit of a backflip Strat? You can hear wrong notes in Joe Pass' playing. I think after 25 years of teaching I can hear it in my students playing too...

I'm not sure what you're saying. If you suggest that you're able to hear when a student plays a wrong note, I'm prepared to accept that. Granted, you can hear when one of your students plays a wrong note. What's the back flip?

[slowpinky]

Sorry I messed up that last post - have edited it now...

and its time to play the guitar...

[warmingtone]

I'm afraind I'm with pinky on this one...

The external listener has nothing whatsoever to do with the correctness of notes as they are played by the performer. Audience not required.

I'd strongly disagree on this part...the listener, even if the musician or composer has to perceive a note to be wrong.


That said I understand a bit about where you are coming from. A lot depends on expectations and tolerance of out sounds. But that said...

Discussing wrong note choices can't mean anything 'til the player is past the point of surprising himself with notes that he can't predict, as in the player who noodles over a scale, and accidentally hits on some right notes.

Yep...it all depends on intention and the skill of the artist to handle notes that may otherwise be a "surprise" or wrong. Micheal Brecker is outstanding at making outside notes, all "wrong notes" sound right for instance.

The skill is in being able to cast an outside note into some kind of structure that a listener could perceive as having some "sense to it". It will perceived by anyone as being wrong if this is not "understood"...somethings might take some while to be understood by an unprepared listener, that's where courage and confidence is required by the artist, to find ways in which such sounds can make sense without alienating the listener.

Beginners at "outside playing" have a lot of trouble with this stuff...without some guiding idea these things are perceived as "wrong".

I'm sure at one time a vocalist ending on the 9th degree in a jazz ballad was seen to be "wrong"...now it's a charming affectation that is often expected in the genre.

I know my parents, now in their 90's, still do not hear things the way I or contemporary listeners do, despite what they have been exposed to...a lot of great music including mild jazz would be heard as "noise", much as a teenager hears opera!

Which is a point about jazz...until you have trained your ear somewhat to the "sound of jazz" you won't know what is right or wrong. Also, modern people are not typically exposed to the ii-V-I type changes typical of "pop" music of the standards...hearing this can be quite tricky if brought up on rock and roll.

The answer, is to listen and continue to "stretch" your ears if you wish to, or learn what is "write" by whatever style that you and stay within those boundaries.

EDIT...

one way of handling "mistakes" to make them sound "right" in jazz is to form an "enclosure" around a chord or scale tone...maybe intentionally do a string of them...typically (if not playing a set melody of course which is either right or "not") the "right note" is a semitone above or below the note played...if one moves a semitone below and then onto the note, or visa versa...encapsulating the "right" note by semi tones.

Enclosure is a term from Jerry Coker involving upper and lower leading tones around an object note.

His book "the jazz language" has some interesting points about "errors" and tips for spotting them in analysis and transcribing. Even Coltrane made "errors", but then there have been some beautiful "mistakes" too.

I remember looking at one of 'tranes solo's and this crazy "cadenza" at the end from a transcription (might have been giant steps from memory). I asked a jazz professor at the time how I was to make sense of this...he showed me how these were physical fingering patterns on the sax and the intention was not in the note choices but the shear speed and abandon and the effect of these "sheets of sound"...I doubt it would have sounded more effective if the notes were "theoretically" right.

[Jeff_K]

I'm a big fan of Justin Sandercoe's video lessons but here's another one specifically on jazz which I found very interesting:

http://www.guitarplayertv.com/index....v/anatomyintro

There is excellent video, printable charts and also backing tracks to apply your learning. Easy to understand and the charts are superb. Great jazz phrasing. Register (free) to see the charts. Really worthwhile.

[strat a various]

The artist knows when he has made a mistake, and 99% of his peers also know. It is a fart in an elevator with two riders. You can't equivocate about it, redefine it, rationalize it, or speak at length until it goes away, a mistake isn't negotiable. Play a clam to an audience full of working Jazz players, and try your verbal gymnastics with them, it won't help; they'll know the difference between playing outside, over the heads of teenagers, past the comfort of the elderly ... and just plain making a mistake, intended or not. As soon as any unmusical, talentless playing becomes "outside ... I meant to do that", Jazz loses it's artistic high ground.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by strat a various

The artist knows when he has made a mistake, and 99% of his peers also know. It is a fart in an elevator with two riders. You can't equivocate about it, redefine it, rationalize it, or speak at length until it goes away, a mistake isn't negotiable. Play a clam to an audience full of working Jazz players, and try your verbal gymnastics with them, it won't help; they'll know the difference between playing outside, over the heads of teenagers, past the comfort of the elderly ... and just plain making a mistake, intended or not. As soon as any unmusical, talentless playing becomes "outside ... I meant to do that", Jazz loses it's artistic high ground.

Cool mate - but verbal gymnastics? Thanks..

[Larry F]

Here's a clam at 55 seconds. He plays the tonic note a semitone higher, then tries to catch it. Now, anyone can use that note in the same place, but it has to be part of the musical statement. This particular clam was not part of the music, judging from his reaction. I am not dissing Luther Allison at all. It is an easy mistake to make sometimes and this one happened to be caught on video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEZWr0sPXsE

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by slowpinky

Cool mate - but verbal gymnastics? Thanks..

I was addressing warmingtone specifically, but no offense intended to him. These long diatribes from any poster don't change the note, whether it was a mistake or just a non-musical choice. Who decides what's right? We decide for ourselves, but if all the other members of the club (greater community of real Jazz players) thinks it's a clam, it is one, for all intents and purposes.