Modulating?

[teleftcaster]

I played a song at church this weekend that had a chorus that went like this:

(Key of A)
A - Esus - E - D/F# - G - D

The progression sounds really nice with the walking bass line E, F#, G, but I noticed that the G (diatonically) is a flat VII chord. Is this an example of modulation within the chorus (i.e. to key of G since G and D are diatonic with each other) or just a chord substitution?

[Wally]

What key is this song written in? It feels to me as if that final D is wanting a resolution to A, which I 'hear' as the key. I could be wrong...again. (:^) You say the G is a 'flatted 7th chord'...that indicates to me that the song is in A. I wouldn't consider the G a modulation.....it is more of an accidental?? outside chord.
A modulation is a complete change of key...not just an accidental.

[teleftcaster]

Thanks for the reply Wally. The key is in A. It does go back to A in the verse. Not a big deal. I'm fairly new to theory, and it just had me thinking. The G major sounds so smooth in the progression, I thought maybe something else was going on theory wise instead of just an accidental.

[craigoslo]

It's called modal borrowing. You take a chord from another mode of the same key. G or G7 is a chord in the key of Am (C major). When you put that chord in A it sounds minorish or bluesy.

[teleftcaster]

"Modal borrowing"...hmmm...I'll look into that. Thanks for something I can chew on craigoslo.

[klasaine]

It's usually referred to as modal interchange and is probably a Berklee coined term. That's where I first heard it anyway ...
http://euphonicremarks.wordpress.com...e-demystified/ ...
but it's exactly what 'craigoslo' said it is. The example that you cited is probably the (or at least one of the) most common usages.

[teleftcaster]

Thank you very much klasaine. That website explains it very well. So the G chord is borrowed from A minor - the parallel minor of A major. I love learning something new concerning theory. I also notice that the G is bordered by D which is the V of G (and conversely G is the IV of D). Maybe that also makes it sound nice.

[craigoslo]

IV to IVm is another common usage. For Ex. In C- F, Fm, C.
My theory teacher went to Berkley back in the day. So whether he learned that term there, or made it up himself , it's definately the same principle.

[mgwhit]

Whatever it's called, bVII is extremely common in all forms of modern pop music. The diatonic VII chord (G#dim in the key of A) just doesn't sound good in that context.

[Joe-Bob]

You need to think of the G chord relating to the D chord. You guys are way over-thinking it.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

You need to think of the G chord relating to the D chord. You guys are way over-thinking it.

How do you mean that? I was thinking of the G as being like a I IV I move (D as the "I").

[klasaine]

Well it is the 'theory, tips and technique' section so where better a place to over think. Though I don't think we are. bVII - IV - I is pretty archetypal.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

How do you mean that? I was thinking of the G as being like a I IV I move (D as the "I").

Yes. Exactly. bVII...Pffft!!

Klasaine,

Look up Occam's razor.

[klasaine]

Well, Larry Darrell not withstanding ... for me, thinking bVII is the simplest way - at least in pop music (musically I'm the most razor's edge guy you'll ever meet). I mean come on, relating it to the D chord - IV/IV(?) - that even complicates it for me .
(I hear this progression in "A" major by the way - ?)

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by klasaine

(I hear this progression in "A" major by the way - ?)

The OP said it was in A. So the part in question does D G D, and then I guess I am presuming back to A. If it was A G D and then back to A I would say bVII, acting as a kind of V7, or Sweet Home move.

[teleftcaster]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

The OP said it was in A. So the part in question does D G D, and then I guess I am presuming back to A. If it was A G D and then back to A I would say bVII, acting as a kind of V7, or Sweet Home move.

It does go back to A. Thanks for the discussion guys.

[Wally]

Okay, so I saw this thread being ignored...there were lurkers who had looked at it but noone had responded.....so I took a shot. I figured that someone would join in and fully explain the thing.
I am not the most studied member here regarding theory, but my ear works. I knew the song had to be in the key of A....if it was anything in the mainstream of American music thought and practice. If the song were written in musical staff, the chord would show an accidental,right? The analysis of why we might choose to write that accidental in there (or simply play the chord in that context if we don't 'write' music in formal staff notation)and utilize the chord is another ballgame, in a way. You don't have to analyze to play, but you do have to 'hear' it. The analysis is just the description of the 'why' for what we do musically. IT may not be necessary to some of us, but it is enriching in many ways.
I learned somethings....modal interchange, modal borrowing, bVII....that will be useful for me. JOe-Bob and I probably would just play the song and know that it worked. ACademic approaches to things go further in the quest for explanation and analysis....the whys, wheres, hows, etc. of musical developement. That must be what JOE Bob finds a bit disconcerting. I don't find it to be a case of 'over thinking'. IT is simply fully developed understanding....way beyond just playing it... to fully understanding how our music has developed. These academic understandings of what people have created with our ears and the instruments through which we communicate may not be necessary, but they can be enriching to those who need or want to understand things on that level.
Therefore, as Klasaine, notes, we on the TDPRI have a 'Tips, THeory, and Technique Forum' where we can share and learn concerning this aspect of music. I appreciate this forum and these discussions.
Thanks to me fellow members for helping me understand and communicate better musically.

[klasaine]

Exactly Wally.
I don't analyze when I play. I only do it when someone else asks me to ... or if I'm having a problem with something and/or looking for a new approach (because I'm sick of listening to myself repeat the same old lines).

Anyway, theory FOLLOWS practice. Play first, make it sound good - then figure out why so you can relate it to someone else. I guess it's kind of like transferring the taste of a pizza into the word and description of a pizza. No matter how poetic you are the description will never taste like a pizza.

[Larry F]

I like the terms modal borrowing or interchange. Actually, I like borrowing better because interchange suggests that not only does a note or chord from A minor is used in A major, so should a note or chord from A major be used in A minor. Interchange suggests a switch of two things. This is what it means in math.

In classical music theory, the word mutation is sometimes used. This implies that the major mode temporarily mutates into the minor mode.

In music analysis, criteria exist for determining if a modulation has occurred. First, the music has notes and chords from the target key (most of the time there is a V I in the new key). Second, the new key is confirmed by V I. In classical music analysis, this key confirmation of V I is critical. Without it, the music will seem to float around, without landing anywhere. Unless, there is mode borrowing or chromatic inflections.

The Who, Call Me Lightning modulates up in whole steps. It is based on I IV, with no V. Then I would think that the I that follows IV would confirm the new key. Here are the chords and keys:

F Bb
G C
A D

Since the Is and IVs repeat several times in each key, you could hear a circle of fourths progression: Bb F C G D A. This can be thought of as: "Bb is a 4th above F, F is a 4th above C, C is a 4th above G, G is a 4th above D, D is a 4th above A." It looks like this pattern would continue all the way through the chromatic scale in 4ths. It would take three more choruses to do that. This may be why the song fades out. There is no place to end it.

In classical theory and analysis, you would say that the first chorus is in F, then a modulating series of chords occurs, then fades away. I can't think of any fade outs in classical music. Is that concept related to technology?

Anyway, just having fun musing. I'm not trying to give a definitive answer to anything. Just interested in the discussion. I really like the term borrowing for this situation.

[Leon Grizzard]

I kind of had the notion that modulations were like Larry described and more abrupt changes of key were called tonal shifts or something like that.

Purely personal, but I have never liked the "borrowing" terminology. Pointing out the use of the chord in a parallel mode makes it understandable, I know. I just think of it as there are moves outside of the diatonic chords. I mean, if you borrow the bVII chord, do you return it to the dorian, aolian, or mixolydian mode? What is it supposed to do in the meantime, while your major key has it?

[Wally]

Leon, thanks for the chuckles. I couldn't agree more...neither a borrower nor a lender be! LOL But...then again, in the chord change sequence that the OP posed, that G chord structures the sequence in such a way that it demands the change that comes.....it bears interest???? lol
I too see the G as 'outside' the diatonic structure. IT is temporary, therefore I don't see it as a modulation.
I have heard that Carl PErkins was told that the chord change in 'HOney Don't'....E, C, E, C.... was improper and wouldn't/couldn't be 'accepted'. Lo and behold, it works and is highly accepetable....it is 'outside' in a good way musically.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

Purely personal, but I have never liked the "borrowing" terminology. Pointing out the use of the chord in a parallel mode makes it understandable, I know. I just think of it as there are moves outside of the diatonic chords. I mean, if you borrow the bVII chord, do you return it to the dorian, aeolian, or mixolydian mode? What is it supposed to do in the meantime, while your major key has it?

And that's a very salient point. The terms borrowing and interchange are really more for finding melody notes (soloing?). And definitely in the case of interchange (via Berklee) - burning over that G chord in A major. If you know the chord comes from an A minor mode you can rip a nice in A minor line/lick over it.

Also, to reiterate, when I play 'pop' music of ANY kind - and that includes jazz - I would never think of that G being outside or borrowed. At this point in music history it's just way too common.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by klasaine

And that's a very salient point. The terms borrowing and interchange are really more for finding melody notes (soloing?). And definitely in the case of interchange (via Berklee) - burning over that G chord in A major. If you know the chord comes from an A minor mode you can rip a nice in A minor line/lick over it.

But what if we really got it from A mixolydian? Or A Dorian? In fact, isn't A mixolydian really a better choice? Or since it is not diatonic, just think G scale; pentatonic if you're not sure about the details. I'll make a gratuitous swipe at Larry here: do you have to associate the G chord with some major scale?

Lashing out at my brothers is all well and good for its own sake, but my point is that here is where a chord scale approach can be helpful. This is a fairly tame example since bVII is so common, but anytime you get a non-diatonic chord, like the intro to The Nightlife (in C: CM7 EbM7 AbM7 G7), just thinking chord generates scale can be helpful.

[klasaine]

Absolutely Leon.
OK, so here's how "I" think when I see a G major chord squarely in an A major progression ... Great place for a blues or minor pentatonic lick - boom, right on that G chord. And dorian would of course work and be a little more on the jazz (or Steely Dan) tip.
And this is of course where it becomes personal choice based on experience, exposure, etc. For example you mention The Nightlife (which we've discussed before). That intro is a fairly stock 'modern' jazz turnaround and I don't think individual changes over it anymore because I've played it so many times. But I had to learn it at some point and work things out over it which in turn exposed me to many melodic ideas which in turn improved my ability to hear more complicated melodies, etc, etc, etc.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by klasaine

For example you mention The Nightlife (which we've discussed before). That intro is a fairly stock 'modern' jazz turnaround and I don't think individual changes over it anymore because I've played it so many times. But I had to learn it at some point and work things out over it which in turn exposed me to many melodic ideas which in turn improved my ability to hear more complicated melodies, etc, etc, etc.

Seem pretty darn exotic to me! Oh, well.

[klasaine]

They are 'exotic' - especially within the context of a country/western torchy blues ballad. The 1st time I heard "Night Life" they totally struck me as being really cool and enigmatic. I learned 'trane' changes way later and it instantly gave me even more respect for Mr. Nelson.

[Leon Grizzard]

Heck, I never even play a iii chord except at Christmas.