PRACTICE

[chaseroonie]

Hey all,

I wanted to get some insight into some of your practice routines and what you see as important vs. a waste of time. First how much practice is enough to be a great player? For 4 years i can say i average 2 hours every day, and that is just an average. Days off i can practice about 6, and regular days 2 maybe 3. I miss a day on occasion. I can't find for the life of me what my guitar heros Paisley and Urban did, wish i knew. I know Steve Vai claims these 10 hour workouts, but i've never bought that, i've tried and my brain about popped at 7. Is learning songs something that should be set aside from practice or is it something that by learning say, "Hot Wired" for instance, you can benefit a great deal? I have a regular routine, im just trying to make the most of my time and get as good as possible as quickly as i can. Any help would be appreciated.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by chaseroonie

I know Steve Vai claims these 10 hour workouts, but i've never bought that, i've tried and my brain about popped at 7.

If Steve Vai can concentrate/practice 10 hours where someone else "popped" at 7 hours then this is an ability that contributes to his high achievement/ability. My wife is an extremely focused academic who has earned straight A's through 2 bachelor and 1 master degree. If I tell you she can study 10 hours a day but I pop at 3 hours, believe it. Just because I can't do something doesn't make it unattainable.

[klasaine]

See below.

[smoke]

Many of the questions you ask are completely unanswerable w/ any authority, specifically as to how it relates to your own development. Asking what X player did may have little to no relevance for how you hear/see/learn music. Plus, even if you followed their routine to the letter, you would likely (and should) come to a different result.

What is it exactly you want to do that you can't? What things exactly do you need to do to be able to do that or those things? If you are truly practicing areas of weakness for 6 hours, you should be well on your way to being able to express yourself at a very high level.

You mention being a 'great' player. We could have many a debate on what makes someone great. The goal of music should be expression. Albert King rules right along side Allan Holdsworth in my book.

Like Monk said, a genius is one most like himself.

[chaseroonie]

Sax, i agree. I don't want this topic to sway from the issue, but i will say that there is a difference between playing and practicing, or at least thats what i am trying to find out. That is very commendable that your wife can study like that, however, wouldnt you agree that the guitars complexity and its strain on the brain would be a far more difficult thing to do for 10 hours? I mean i didn't even mention that he claims to have done it regularly. Doesn't seem possible for a human being. Just my opinion.

- By great, i mean i would like to be a studio musician who can sit in any situation and be able to handle it. I don't ever want my music to be fenced because im unable to play something.

[klasaine]

To be good enough to make a living - 10,000 hours. Seriously!

To be "GREAT" - ? Probably longer.

I got serious when I was about 13. I played pretty much everyday, 3 hours a day on average (some days a lot longer, some days not at all, etc.) for 10 years. And then I started to make a living at it. That's 10,000 hours plus some.
All of my friends and colleagues that I came up with did essentially the same. We all focused and concentrated on different aspects of music at different times and for varying periods of time but we all put in pretty much the same amount of time ... and still do.
Everybody goes through phases of intense practice and then a backing off period where maybe you're discovering a new style and listening a lot. Or you get a steady gig or a Broadway show and you play the same tunes every night for 18 months and you don't want to or have time to 'learn' - but you;'re still playing (and learning a little slower maybe).

*There was an incredible thread on this about a year or so ago and I can't find it.

[Larry F]

I'm glad you are asking this. The nice thing about developing as a musician is that there are so many things involved. My approach is to focus on one thing, then when I poop out, I work on something else. I can usually go back and forth, from freshness to boredom, to freshness, etc.

Here are some general things that I think are good to work on:

1. Learning the notes on the fingerboard.
2. Learning the notes of the major and minor scales.
3. Learning the notes of the major, minor, and dom 7 chords.
4. Learning to get around on the fingerboard with single notes.
5. Learning to play good rhythm guitar in all styles.
6. Learning to read music at least at the level of being able to play a few bars in a few minutes. Sight reading is great, but it may not be necessary for you. But being able to decipher and work out how to play a passage in a few minutes will serve you well.

At my peak, in my youth, I played a 5-hour gig 4 nights a week, rehearsed 2 hours a day, taught guitar 3-4 hours a day, and practiced 2 hours per day. I really improved quickly during that 6 month period.

I also have dropped everything else in order to master some aspect of the guitar. Other than teaching guitar to make a living, I would virtually stop playing live in order to concentrate on a 3-month plan of study. I did that several times and really cleared up some old lingering problems.

I am back playing again after a 25-year layoff. My method now is to play along with good blues backing tracks or Youtube blues videos. Everything I work on is done while I play with the backing tracks. This is to develop my sense of being in a band and all the timing and phrasing issues that entails. It would be better to be in a band, but not very practical at this time in my life. I do not play scales ever. I believe that the strict up and down the scales in even-note rhythms does not promote good phrasing habits. I am now focusing on developing good reflexes, so that good ideas emanate from within and can be played expressively. On the positive side of the scale issue, they are good for learning what goes on when the melody or solo interacts with the chords. Scales are also good for learning the fingerboard. Scales are also good for working on some very basic aspects of technique: alternate picking, use of the fourth finger, and solid, even time with an even dynamic level. Zoning out and really meditating on these aspects of technique while playing 12 major scales in every position will take you to a higher level, but maybe at the cost of playing robotically. Just let me say that I am glad I did that when I was young, since it gives me a lot of technique at the root of my playing. Nowadays I can afford to play with backing tracks and doing the other things I mentioned above.

Some people here are working with me off and on through PMing. If you would like some help is setting up a practice routine, I'll gladly try to help you with that. I really enjoy helping others in their journey.

[strat a various]

When asked about his practicing habits, Wes Montgomery answered, "I don't practice, I occasionally open the guitar case and throw in a piece of raw meat."

[chaseroonie]

Wow, fantastic feedback! Larry, i am trying very hard to develop a practice routine. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Larry, When you say playing "robotic", is there a specific artist you would classify as robotic? A lot of my friends tend to say Paisley is, but the way he plays guitar electrifies me. His solos sound unhuman, but they amaze me and make me want to learn. What do you think of that kind of playing?

[brokenjoe]

I play for anywhere from 2-6 hours a day these days. Ideally, I'd like to always keep it on the high side, but life gets in the way.

Here's my routine:

I start off with warm-ups. Simple scales/patterns to get my fingers flexible, and the blood flowing. Usually about a half hour.

Then, I'll get into working on certain patterns and excercises that I've developed for myself based on where I want my playing to go, and where I feel that I need improvement. Lately I've been concentrating on pinky strength, chromaticism, and right hand technique. This can go from anywhere from an hour to three, depending on how much time I have.

Then I'll get into playing songs, practising melodies, or jamming along to tracks that I've stored into my looper. This part of my routine is what takes up the rest of my time.

A couple of thoughts:

I have, in the past played for 8 or 10 hours at a time. On the one hand, you get to an amazing place with your playing where you feel like you can do anything, but unfortunately -at least for me- too much of that, and your fingers start swelling up like sausages.

As it is, with the routine that I have, I wake up with stiff fingers in the morning, but I feel as though it's a good kind of stiffness from hard work. Not the bad kind that hurts, and where I feel as though I'm abusing them.

I've been called a good or (and here I blush) great guitar player before, but although it's a nice compliment, but I know that I'll always have more to learn, and areas to work on. I'm a fairly strict self-taskmaster, maybe too much of a perfectionist, but I still really enjoy playing.

After all these years I've come to the realization that my real talent lies in meeting challenges and overcoming them. In my case, it's definately more perseverance than natural talent!

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by chaseroonie

Sax, i agree. I don't want this topic to sway from the issue, but i will say that there is a difference between playing and practicing, or at least thats what i am trying to find out. That is very commendable that your wife can study like that, however, wouldnt you agree that the guitars complexity and its strain on the brain would be a far more difficult thing to do for 10 hours? I mean i didn't even mention that he claims to have done it regularly. Doesn't seem possible for a human being.

My analogy was not to compare studying history with playing guitar. What I'm suggesting is even though I might not be able to do an activity in the same way as someone in the highest echelon of that activity, I would not just think that they are exaggerating what they do to reach the top.

The reason these people are above average at something(music/sports/research discovery), is they do the things that the average person has trouble conceiving as possible. Most often I hear these incredible training stories in sports, Tiger Woods hitting balls into the night when all others have said, "I can't do anymore, I've popped".

I also think some activities like music and golf put us in a position to think we are similar to Steve Vai or Tiger Woods because we can buy all the same equipment and play the same courses. We would never compare our weekend workout to an NFL player and we would never compare watching Discovery Channel to what Stephen Hawking does. Well Steve Vai and other professional musicians are as far removed from the Friday night club player as Tiger Woods is to the local club player.

[brewwagon]

alex said he would go out about 4 in the afternoon to meet girls and party for the night eddy would be playing guitar in his room alex would ask him if he wanted to go

eddy would just smile and bend a few notes turning up the volume

...alex would stagger in about 4am

eddy was still there practicing ... sometimes playing the same riff

bw

[chaseroonie]

My goodness.. See i havent been around very long so this blows my mind! So what do you guys think can be attained if you practice hard 3 hours a day(average) and are consistent? I have always been a vocalist, but as i grew older i was blown by guys who could play incredible guitar and hold the lead vocals as well(Urban, Paisley, countless others). So i was an average strummer 5 years ago and the last 5 years have been hard work everyday, but it seems so discouraging when there are guys practicing 7-10 hours consistently. Oh well, all you can do is all you can do right? I guess its time to dial it up another notch. I'm gonna set a goal now to have a 10 hour practice session. Ill let you know if i last. Lots of red bull i guess..lol.

[klasaine]

3 hours a day is great.
On top of that be in a band that plays A LOT!
Practice and gig/jam/rehearse.
You'll get there.

I was lucky. When I was starting you could get a 3-6 nighter and hold it for a year maybe. Man your chops get nice when you do that. I still feel best when I do a two week/six night stretch somewhere.
Playing in cover bands is also great for your learning and your chops. You're forced to play things you might not otherwise do or think of. Just play, play, play.
All the greats - or even 'good' had an extended period of extreme gigging. Whether it's Keith Richards or Brad Paisley or Pat Metheny. We're talkin' about guys who did 250 nights a year.

[tele salivas]

practicing with a band and going to open mic nights, etc... opens up lots of other doors in the perspective and 'thinking on your feet' dept. you can read about exploring the amazon river all day, but you'll learn a lot more by going down the river...when you can apply those skills and knowledge, that is when it all really sticks with you. On the other hand, willie nelson didn't start to get really good until someone gave him a book on jazz chord/melody/harmony, he studied it for a few months while he was gigging/recording and presto!, he got real good real fast...

[neocaster]

Thanks for your answers, especially Larry. Look for a PM from me. I'm in a rut of aimless diddling that isn't getting me anywhere. I've know people who practiced 8 and 9 hours a day. They're phenomenal players. I always assumed I'd get out what I put it, give or take a bit for raw talent (or lack thereof) and haven't been surprised. That's been exactly what I've gotten.

[the embezzler]

Originally Posted by strat a various

When asked about his practicing habits, Wes Montgomery answered, "I don't practice, I occasionally open the guitar case and throw in a piece of raw meat."

Yes, but Wes did a bunch of woodshedding (incl. learning all of Charlie Christian's solos note for note by EAR!) and he played 3 or 4 nights a week. Plus, he had perfect pitch I think.....

I think that, along with keeping up your chops through playing scales and arps etc, it's important to be working on songs. Getting to the point where you can memorize the changes and melody and then, maybe even adding your own 2 cents and making the arrangement more 'you' via substitutions and different voicings.
Standards are great for this.
Not only does this help to keep your interest up, it helps you build up a repertoire which is something that most guitarists are severely lacking in. A few years ago, I couldn't have sat down and played a song for somebody; the best I could've done would be a few chords or riffs here and there.
I think that it was Joe Pass who said that any guitarist worth his salt should be able to sit down and play unaccompanied for at least 15 mins or so.That is, playing 2 or 3 songs straight through - not noodling.
Memorise melody, then memorise chord changes then try and solo over it.

Jim Campilongo said a very insightful thing in the Tone Quest report magazine a few years ago. He was talking about visiting a guitar show somewhere and he noticed that every single guitarist who tried out an instrument just played generic blues licks - not one could carry a tune. It's the same in guitar stores.

Also, try and play with other people as often as you can. Try and hunt out people who are technically more advanced than you if at all possible.
A real book of tunes, a metronome and a looping pedal that's capable of playing back changes for you to solo over, are all great assets for a guitar player.
Lastly, don't forget to have fun, fun fun! - remember why you picked that thing up in the first place?
And try to listen to lots of different music. Just like eating, you should strive for a balanced diet in your listening habits, too.

[Budda]

I would add this:

Maintaining your equipment.

Starting with YOU. You must be in shape to perform any physical [i]or[i] mental activity. Especially, if you want to do it at a high level.

Do you keep an extremely rigid schedule of Sleep? Do you eat well? I'm no fanatic here. But, Steve Vai, Eric Johnson, Jeff Beck (I think JB anyways) are all Vegetarians. So, whether you are or not isn't the point. Just that it points out there are more aspects to reaching your peak, than sweep picking arpeggios, etc.

Do you use Technique that maximizes your facility, while minimizing any potential damage?

Do you play too loud? Could bite you later on. See: Pete Townsend.

Do you hold, pick and fret in a good posture? I have Tennis Elbow, Carpel Tunnel Syndrome and Tendonitis in both arms. DRAG! Because of improper practice for extended periods of time.

Etc., etc., etc. There's a lot to it.

I am definately not wanting to be discouraging. Not in any way! But, you gotta acknowledge these things.
Start slow, and build up a routine that maximizes everything about you. Physically, Mentally, Morally and Creatively.

I'll stop now. Blah, blah, blah! :)


Just some stuff to chew on. Dedication is often under-appreciated nowadays. And I commend anyone who has it.

One of my favorite quotes, is from a famous guy (Thomas Edison):

"Opportunity is missed by most people, because it's dressed in overalls and looks like work."

Hope this helps to fire you up!

"Rock On, Rock Soldier!" (Another great quote, from Ace Frehley)

[Nado69]

Originally Posted by Budda

I would add this:

I'm no fanatic here. But, Steve Vai, Eric Johnson, Jeff Beck (I think JB anyways) are all Vegetarians. So, whether you are or not isn't the point. Just that it points out there are more aspects to reaching your peak, than sweep picking arpeggios, etc.

Ha! When I was in a band that gigged very regularly, I found I played my best on the nights I had a big feed of Red Meat beforehand! Nice big juicy medium steak! Seemed to help summon that bit of extra aggression that helped me cut loose a tad more. LOL. Blues / Rock BTW, nothing real heavy.... (Don't eat much red meat these days - maybe that's my problem...lol).

Had a flat spot for some years, some lows etc, not enjoying playing and so on. Hardly any worthwhile practice - just going through the motions. Recently, things are better, joining a new band, have over 50 new songs to learn with plenty of solo's etc., and it's really brought a new life to my playing and level of enthusiasm. Slightly different style than I've played before, so it's stretching and challenging me. Greatly enjoying learning new stuff again, and the joy of playing is back. Woohoo!

I could not imagine practicing more that 2 hours a day, with a full time job and a family. I guess now I'm averaging 1 to 2 hours a day - more on days off. My left hand sometimes gives me some grief, and I run out of stamina with it real quick, so more than a few hours in one sitting is usually out of the question.

The things I found have helped me the most over the years, aside from simply developing good technique by practicing, is to play with different people, learn to comp in a band, go to jams, play in a house band where you don't know what you're going to be playing next half the time, always keep learning new material, and really learn to LISTEN to what's going on around you (in a band context). Last but not least - the biggest lesson (IMHO), is learning what/when NOT to play. Sometimes it's what you DON'T say that speaks louder than what you do.

[chaseroonie]

Man, fantastic comments. Its so hard to find our breed of people who live the guitar, this board is so great. Anyways, BRAD PAISLEY is not a vegetarian, id have to say at least 10% of his songs somewhat lend themselves to a fish fry or deer roast, lol.