Question about playing over changes....

[ch1naski]

Take a song like "Jammin With Jimmie" (or "I Hear Ya Talkin" , it has the same changes...). It goes from Bb on the main theme, then a progression of
D - G - C - F then back to Bb. (not really sure if it's major or dominant, cuz the riff in the song has both a Maj7 and a flat 7th... I really suck at theory). When I jam along to it, Major and Mixolydian both seem to work.

When it goes to the D - G - C - F thing, those roots are all in Bb Mixolydian and Major. Would I continue playing in Bb, but targeting the roots of the changes (D G C F) (which, I suppose would also put me in FMaj) Or would I play F Mixolydian, since those same roots are found in that, too?

Geez, a little theory knowledge might be useful.... maybe I should look into that...

[Leon Grizzard]

I don't know those tunes, but it looks to me like a common swing progression: I III7 VI7 II7 V7 I. Same as Five Foot Two Eyes of Blue, and Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone. That is a cycle of dominant seventh chords. You jump from the I chord to the III7, and then it resolves down a fifth and then down another fifth, etc. until you wind up at home. (It is more common to jump to the VI7 to start the cycle, but that's irrelevant here.) Anyway, the common approach is to play the dominant scale aka mixolydian of the same root as the chord you are playing over. So D dominant, G dominant, C dominant, F dominant, Bb major.

Here's an older thread on the subject:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-...cle-fiths.html

[klasaine]

Like Leon, I don't know the tunes but that progression of D - G - C - F is the 'classic' I Got Rhythm bridge. And I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that no matter what the melody is there, that the changes are all dominant 7th chords(?). 'Generally' speaking most improvisers play over each change individually using the mixolydian mode on each root, D - G - C and F.

[ch1naski]

Thank you, Mr. Grizzard. It's an honor to get an answer from you. Now lemme check out that older post....

[Leon Grizzard]

I guess I should just give up and stop using the term dominant scale. I always feel compelled to add "aka mixolydian" or "/mixolydian" anyway. I should just save my breath. Or fingers.

[ch1naski]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Like Leon, I don't know the tunes but that progression of D - G - C - F is the 'classic' I Got Rhythm bridge. And I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that no matter what the melody is there, that the changes are all dominant 7th chords(?). 'Generally' speaking most improvisers play over each change individually using the mixolydian mode on each root, D - G - C and F.

yes, I was playing Mixo over each root of the D G C F thing, and it seemed to work. I just feel like I'm doing that cuz I dont know what else to do.

BTW, the songs I'm referring to are "Jammin with Jimmie" - Jimmie Rivers and the Cherokees and "I Hear Ya Talkin" form Bob Wills -Tiffany Transcripts.

[ch1naski]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

I guess I should just give up and stop using the term dominant scale. I always feel compelled to add "aka mixolydian" or "/mixolydian" anyway. I should just save my breath. Or fingers.

Leon, I prefer Dominant, it explains the scale function better.

[strat a various]

I'm not familiar with those tunes. Are they blues, pop, or jazz? A blues player would fill those changes up with considerably more blue notes than strict myxolydian, which is just a major scale with a flat "7". Playing myxolydian over 7th chords gives the improvisation a very old-timey feel ... it's what a Dixieland player would use over 7th chords.
A jazz player, unless a 20s-30s sound was appropriate for atmospheric reasons, would deal with "I've Got Rhythm" changes by harmonizing the implied II, V of each 7th chord with Diminished (or bebop) phrases. Over D7, a D Diminished starting on a half step if the D is voiced as an altered chord, or on a whole step if the implied Amin can be considered an A7#9, then actually we're explaining the solo intervals from the perspective of an "A" Diminished starting on a half step, catching the flat and sharp extensions.

[Budda]

Generally, the advice above is STELLAR. But, there are other avenues to explore. Here's another couple of ideas:

Maybe try Am Pentatonic over all 4 Chords.

Or, maybe:

Over D7 play Am Pent.
Over G7 play Dm Pent.
Over C7 play Gm Pent.
Over F7 play Cm Pent.

Or:

Focus on the m3/M3 relationships in each Chord.

Over the D7 focus on the F to F# Notes.
Over the G7 Bb to B.
Over C7 Eb to E
Over F7 Ab to A

Just some ideas for variety.

[Larry F]

It would help to know if making most of these dominant 7th chords sound acceptable to your ears. For example: D7 G7 C7 F7 Bb maj 7 (or 6th or 6/9 or triad, but NOT Bb7).

If these are dom 7 chords, here is a neat trick. For those chords in order, play:

F# C
F B
E Bb
Eb A
then the Bb chord.

See how the notes descend by semitone?

Also, just to get my 2 cents in here, I would not use the term D mixo or D dominant scale. I would, instead, call them by the major scale name, thus for the D chord you play the G major scale, for the G chord you play the C scale, etc. The reason I do this is because I want to think about the large context. When I see a sequence of chords, I immediately try to zero in on the major (or minor) scale in which they reside. I don't factor in an extra theoretical construction of mixo mode or dom scale. When I teach analysis, I stress the practice of finding one key that covers as many chords as possible. A special sequence like the one above is its own animal. I wouldn't recommend shoehorning those chords into as few scales as possible. I think the circle of dominants is the best way to think of it. I think that using the term mixo in this context adds a layer of theory that isn't needed.

Back to the sequence. Here is another peep into my brain:

D chord means I play all natural notes except F#.
G chord means I play all natural notes except F# and C#. More accurately, I play the same notes as I do for the D chord, except I think C natural instead of C#. I don't put the F# into the collection since it is already there from the D chord notes.
C chord means I have F natural and B natural.
F chord means I have Bb.

This is the least amount of work I need to do. It may seem like a lot of extra work, but I have these things really burned into my head and ears. If I look at a piece of music and I see a G#, then I look for the note D. That is because any scale with D# also has F# C# G#. If I look at a piece of music and see Eb, then I look for Ab. That is because any scale that has Ab also has Bb Eb. I mean major scale in this paragraph.

For minor, I look for a break in the circle of 5ths. For example, C minor has Eb and B in it. This is outside the circle of fifths, since if E is flat, B would also be flat. Other examples: Am = C G#, Bm = D A#. Now I know that a minor key has some choices. The notes available in the key of Cm are C D Eb F G Ab A Bb B. The significance of Eb and B lies in the fact that Eb is a member of the tonic chord, Cm and B is a member of the dominant chord, G. The note Eb carries the info that the key is minor. The note B carries the info that G is the dominant chord. Everything else falls into place.

I'm sorry if this seems too technical. If we all were sitting around, I could explain this on the guitar or piano. The terminology used here is one way of explaining through words what the note relations are.

[screamin eagle]

Well by the looks of your avatar, you may be inclined to take a Junior Barnard approach to the song.

State, and live in the changes-- and make it bluesy. I still can't understand how he was so fast with some of those lines with the mountain of hands he had. He rarely veered too far, if at all, from the chords.

[strat a various]

It's never a good idea to approach a solo with scales in mind, because the result will sound contrived. Scales and chord notes should be used to explain improvisations, not to dictate them. If you really want to sound authentic and musical over those changes, you need to hum, whistle, or scat sing over them. Then, you're creating melodies without the burden of an instrument and it's limitations. Transcribe what you sang to the guitar, and voila, a solo.
If it's a bluesy tune, you'll probably find that you sing over each chord as if soloing blues style in the key of each chord. Many of these notes can be described as Mixolydian Mode, but that doesn't matter. There are other notes, too. All that matters is that the notes you sing sound good to you and you are ABLE TO TRANSFER THEM TO GUITAR.

[ch1naski]

Originally Posted by screamin eagle

Well by the looks of your avatar, you may be inclined to take a Junior Barnard approach to the song.

State, and live in the changes-- and make it bluesy. I still can't understand how he was so fast with some of those lines with the mountain of hands he had. He rarely veered too far, if at all, from the chords.

Yup. Junior fan, here. I try to spice it up with chromatics and those 1/4 bends that sound like he's trying to bend .056 gauge B string. Sometimes it works. But I've noticed that chromatics have their place, and I seem to wanna put them EVERYPLACE.

[ch1naski]

Originally Posted by strat a various

It's never a good idea to approach a solo with scales in mind, because the result will sound contrived. Scales and chord notes should be used to explain improvisations, not to dictate them. If you really want to sound authentic and musical over those changes, you need to hum, whistle, or scat sing over them. Then, you're creating melodies without the burden of an instument and it's limitations. Transcribe what you sang to the guitar, and voila, a solo.
If it's a bluesy tune, you'll probably find that you sing over each chord as if soloing blues style in the key of each chord. Many of these notes can be described as Mixolydian Mode, but that doesn't matter. There are other notes, too. All that matters is thgat the notes you sing sound good to you and you aRE ABLE TO TRANSFER THEM TO GUITAR.

Yes, I try not to run a scale through. But it seems to help to remember the basic notes that are "good" and "bad", you know? once I know a general outline of notes, I usually base my lines on that particular scale(s) and try to see how I can fit wild notes around those so I dont sound like I'm playing scales.

As far as singing goes, I tried that in my brief attempt at music theory in college 20 years ago, and found I could hit a note even if it was my natural talking pitch! But I do come from a mostly blues background, so the blue notes are always there, even when I try NOT to play 'em.

[ch1naski]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Back to the sequence. Here is another peep into my brain:

D chord means I play all natural notes except F#.
G chord means I play all natural notes except F# and C#. More accurately, I play the same notes as I do for the D chord, except I think C natural instead of C#. I don't put the F# into the collection since it is already there from the D chord notes.
C chord means I have F natural and B natural.
F chord means I have Bb.

You've touched on another problem for me.... theory. I dont normally think in terms of key signatures. Mostly I go by patterns, and sharpening or flatting notes (like a flatted major 7 is a Dominant.) It purtty much hits a wall after that.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by strat a various

I'm not familiar with those tunes. Are they blues, pop, or jazz? A blues player would fill those changes up with considerably more blue notes than strict myxolydian, which is just a major scale with a flat "7". Playing myxolydian over 7th chords gives the improvisation a very old-timey feel ... it's what a Dixieland player would use over 7th chords.
A jazz player, unless a 20s-30s sound was appropriate for atmospheric reasons, would deal with "I've Got Rhythm" changes by harmonizing the implied II, V of each 7th chord with Diminished (or bebop) phrases. Over D7, a D Diminished starting on a half step if the D is voiced as an altered chord, or on a whole step if the implied Amin can be considered an A7#9, then actually we're explaining the solo intervals from the perspective of an "A" Diminished starting on a half step, catching the flat and sharp extensions.

At first, I was going to flag this post as violating the "treat everyone with respect" rule; "it's what a Dixieland player would use over 7th chords." Ouch. But really, would you expand on this a little more? Diminished on what? I stand by my nuts and bolts answer to OP but spell out what you are saying a little more. Good stuff.

[ch1naski]

I dunno if I'd call Junior "dixieland", but these changes DO sound "old timey" to me. Cue up the Soggy Bottom Boys!

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

At first, I was going to flag this post as violating the "treat everyone with respect" rule; "it's what a Dixieland player would use over 7th chords." Ouch. But really, would you expand on this a little more? Diminished on what? I stand by my nuts and bolts answer to OP but spell out what you are saying a little more. Good stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean, Leon. Are you saying that you don't like Dixieland music? And are you saying that Dixieland is an insult? I mean, Heb Ellis played with the Dukes of Dixie, I have the album.
If you think "Dixieland" is a bad word, you ought to listen to more Dixie and Creole, because it's a lot hipper than you seem to think. Also, if you're sensitive and think you or ch1naski have been insulted with the word "Dixieland", well where I'm from, Southern music isn't an insult or an example of poor musicianship.

You can look up the relationship of altered 7th chords to Diminished scales on line. I'm sure there are plenty of bebop instructional sites that cover it, it's pretty basic Jazz technique.

[klasaine]

Whoa there Strat a various ...
He's just asking you to elaborate, as in he 'likes' what you're alluding to. And I definitely don't think he'd be insulted by the term 'souther music'. Now me on the other hand being a native Angelino ... kidding

*I do though prefer the to sub the minor V for the dominant thing.