Help Me With This Oddball Chord

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by J.S. Bach

... you could name it anything you want.

This is not correct. This and any other chord, triad, or poly-chord may only be named properly by addressing the constituent notes of the chord. There may be, and usually are, several choices of chord formulas, but none of them bear on the key of any piece of music.
Chords are identified by their content, not their context. They exist independent of the key. This is pretty basic.
Sure, there are a dozen names for Chill Mike's chord. It's location in a composition is irrelevant. Clarity is the best guideline for chord names. That narrows it down. After that, it's a matter of opinion and/or tradition.

[Ian Rossiter]

ummm...Gm6 inversion???

[jazztele]

well, trying it in several different contexts, i like it as an E-7b5.

strat-a-various, there may be several correct ways of naming it, but wouldn't you agree that context dictates what name you'd use at the moment? what if this chord were followed by an A7alt and a D-? or if preceded by an F-7? or followed by a C9?

[Five¢]

Originally Posted by strat a various

...Chords are identified by their content, not their context...

Chords are identified by their content AND their context. Yes, there are a dozen names for Chill Mike's chord, but there is only one right one. And we know what that "right" name is because of context.

[J.S. Bach]

Originally Posted by strat a various

This is not correct. This and any other chord, triad, or poly-chord may only be named properly by addressing the constituent notes of the chord. There may be, and usually are, several choices of chord formulas, but none of them bear on the key of any piece of music.
Chords are identified by their content, not their context. They exist independent of the key. This is pretty basic.
Sure, there are a dozen names for Chill Mike's chord. It's location in a composition is irrelevant. Clarity is the best guideline for chord names. That narrows it down. After that, it's a matter of opinion and/or tradition.

in the beginning, we have 12 notes/1 chromatic scale/no chords.

next we derive a diatonic from the chromatic with these intervals - "1, 1, 1/2, 1, 1, 1, 1/2". The 1st note will determine the name of the scale.

(Ex. lets use... 'A'.) --- A B C# D E F# Ab A - Now we have a 'Key'(7 notes). The Key of A. But still no chords.

next we number or label the notes , starting with the Root A, as 1 through 7.

Now we can figure out what combinations of these 7 notes (A B C# D E F# Ab) will make the actual chords that are used in the Key.

And in any Key there 3 Majors chords, 3 Minors chords and 1 Diminished chord.

1 4 5 = the 3 Majors - A D E . Ok, so we used the scale to find out the three Major chords in a Key. (2 3 and 6 = minors)


strat a various
"Chords are identified by their content, not their context. They exist independent of the key. This is pretty basic."


Chords do not exist independently of a key or their context. Instead, they ARE the content AND context OF their Keys.

Prove it you say? Ok.

Diatonic A Scale - A B C# D E F# Ab A
------------------1-2-3--4-5-6--7--8



We know 1, 4 and 5 represent the 3 Major chords in a Key. We've all played the blues before. In our Example Key of A, the 1 4 5 are the A D E Major chords. Simple enough.

Now watch closely...

While the 1 4 and 5 notes in the scale(and 2 3 6 and 7) determine the names and types of the chords --- A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, AbDim.--- for the Key, *the notes of chords in the Key are discovered using the 1 3 5 notes in our original Diatonic!!!

Is that cool or what! Check it out....

Chords consists of 3 different notes played simultaniously. That is the definition of a chord... 3 notes or more...Not 2.


So here it comes!!! Using 1 4 5, 2 3 6, 7 etc... we found the Maj/Min. chords in our Key. Now we want to know how to play those chords. So we need to have the Diatonic tell us what 3 notes make up these chords.

lets look at the 1st 3 chords in our Key of A..."A, Bm, C#m"

To find the notes of the chord 'A', use this pattern of intervals in the 'A' Diatonic: 1 3 5 where 1=the root or A note.

Ex. 1=A 3=C# 5=E ...... A C# E .... A=root C#=3rd E=5th ... 1 3 5/Root 3rd 5th = A Major

Next one is Bm. Use the same intervals(1 3 5) to find the notes in the chord. Using THE A Diatonic Scale again, since we ARE in the Key of A, Just start on the B note of the scale and just "call" it the 1st note. Now our original scale looks like this... "B C# D E F# Ab A B" just for this moment. This is also refered to as the "Dorian" mode.

B C# D E F# Ab A - 1=B 3=D 5=F# ... B=Root D=3rd F#=5th = B minor ....and so on down the line.

The 7th chord(Dim.) is a different intervals. 1 3 5 only apply to the maj. and min. chords in a PARTICULAR KEY's context!


No need to use phrases like "minor 3rd" when deriving all the notes from the KEYS' Diotonic Scale as you can see. Many other patterns of intervals are applied to derive all other scales from the Diatonic as well as any chords you might be faced with, regardless of Key, and not know how to play.

Like i said... is this cool or what!

You all do understand that this was costing everyone $90usd per every 30min. right? I take checks. Just playing around... It's only $85. sorry. lol

strat a various, You may want to re-think what you were thinking. lol

"Chords are identified by their content, not their context. They exist independent of the key. This is pretty basic."

Was this your own opinion or did you receive lessons? Just currious.

[bootlegger1929]

that first chord could be called a D sus2, Augmented, Add4..

[daves561]

I have to amend my previous post: it's definitely an Fmaj9sus4, no root, with a 6 in the bass.

No, wait. It's an A(b9)sus4. No root.

No, wait. It's an Fbb maj(b9). No root, of course. (The bass player handles that.)

[J.S. Bach]

E ---- 3
B ---- 5
G ---- 3
D ---- 0
A ---- x
E ---- x

i've been messing around with the notes and i guess i like the sound more as a C7 type hanging on the edge of the Key of F. much easier to fade this riff out... that's for sure! lol

[Andy R]

I would call it Fred.

[J.S. Bach]

Originally Posted by Andy R

I would call it Fred.

Yeah, Fred. i like that. i once knew a fred sounded just like this one. count me in!

[Flewis]

Originally Posted by Andy R

I would call it Fred.

are we naming the chord after me!! I'm honoured, or wait maybe your just agreeing with me!

[Budda]

Originally Posted by Andy R

I would call it Fred.

Again, it's all about context.

If this were for a Dinner Club Set, or an Orchestra setting, the Tunes would probably dictate the Chord read as "Frederick".

Hate to nit-pick things, but.............

[Wally]

By itself, imho, one can call it a number of different things. I find that it makes a good Gm6 in resolving to a D chord in the key of D.
Thanks for posting the question. I don't think there is a definitive question outside the context of a key, but I have gotten some good ideas for its use. THis chord followed by an E7+11 moves well into a Bm or Bm7.

[Flewis]

Originally Posted by Wally

By itself, imho, one can call it a number of different things. I find that it makes a good Gm6 in resolving to a D chord in the key of D.
Thanks for posting the question. I don't think there is a definitive question outside the context of a key, but I have gotten some good ideas for its use. THis chord followed by an E7+11 moves well into a Bm or Bm7.

This chord will fit into many different keys or arrangements which is whats cool about passing chords, or sub chords - I got into them listening to Joe Pass. Take a listen to some western swing you'll hear a million of these types of chords -

[Chill Mike D]

Hmm, it's the third chord in a four chord bridge piece I came up with using a couple of the "Stairway to Heaven" chords that everybody knows. Here's the progression:

E -- 7
B -- 8
G -- 7
D -- x
A -- x
E -- x


E -- 5
B -- 7
G -- 7
D -- x
A -- x
E -- x


E -- 3
B -- 5
G -- 3
D -- 0
A -- x
E -- x


And then finish it up with a regular D chord:

E -- 2
B -- 3
G -- 2
D -- 0
A -- x
E -- x

[Chill Mike D]

Originally Posted by J.S. Bach

Yeah, Yeah...Thats it!!!

lol


Unless this chord is from a real song with a Key, this is pointless. you could name it anything you want.

Is this a chord you just happened to have played and liked the sound of it? Then posted this thread to ask what it is named as? Thats what happened right?

If not, tell us the song title... or better yet just the Key of the song, and we'll tell you the right name of the chord. Ok?....Ok

Yeah I was just playing my nylon string guitar out on a lawn chair on Saturday and figured out this chord shape to connect a D chord to another chord.

[jazztele]

hmmm...

in that context, my gut wants to name it as something /D, really...

but out of curiousity, why did you decide to leace the open D out of the first two voicings? it fits nicely...ah, digression...

i'd be inclined to think, D, G (or G/D, if you want to get technical about it, but a D is part of a G chord in the first place)

maybe a C7/D (no root)

of course, play any other voicing of the afforementioned E-7b5 and it works nicely, with any voicing of G and D preceding it...

i'd like to avoid naming it from the D for some reason...i find it easier to think of music if there is not two different chord functions spelled from the same root in the same progression. of course, this is sometimes unavoidable...

the chord in question, named from the D, would have a 9th and a raised fifth, making it like a dominant to me...granted, no flat 7, so it could be major, but those tensions are just that, tense, and that makes me feel a dominant function--ya dig?...but i want a dominant to resolve a fourth higher, not to a chord of the same root...

so does that mean i want to name it from an A, perhaps? an A11(b9)no root? nah, that's WAAAAYYYYYYY to complicated....

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Chill Mike D

Hmm, it's the third chord in a four chord bridge piece I came up with using a couple of the "Stairway to Heaven" chords that everybody knows. Here's the progression: G, D, Gm6/D, D.

Yeah, I think I'd call it a Gm6/D, because it's working as a sub for the A7 back to D. I just transcribed a tune with a similar change that I posted here...

[jazztele]

yeah, i think i like that jayfreddy.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Five¢

Chords are identified by their content AND their context. Yes, there are a dozen names for Chill Mike's chord, but there is only one right one. And we know what that "right" name is because of context.

This is also inaccurate. A pianist will be moved to write chords as either poly-chords or as a chord with a bass note. This is simply because they are thinking with "both hands", so to speak. As the develop familiarity with writing arrangements for a large ensemble including those specifically for guitar, many will tap into the custom of writing for guitarists, who tend to think of the lowest note of the chord as the Bass note of the harmony.
The arranger makes a choice based on the instrument, tradition, convenience and his own perspective. There is no onus on anyone to outline the harmonic movement or intent by naming a chord this or that ...the name is "nominal".
When I write an arrangement for a horn section or for strings, the score does not feature chord names. I write notes. They are what they are.
Let me repeat that for the "chord name distracted". The four or five notes that make up a chord are NOTES. They are just that, a harmony. Granting a name to the chord is a convenience offered to the rhythm section, who usually have the experience and knowledge to make sense of chord formula short hand. If I have a specific inversion in mind, I can name the chord to guide the player to that inversion, but the notes are the thing. I prefer to write specific dedicated inversions as notation, along with or irrespective of a formula name, depending on circumstance.
I'll repeat this for clarity.

Chord names are descriptions of a formula for a shorthand that describes s group of notes. The notes are not dependent on the name, the name is a reflection of the actual notes. If writing jazz choruses for improvisers, if you like to put the bass note in the chord name to simplify things for the bass player, you may. You may also write a bass note under the chord. This is customary, that's a matter of being an efficient copyist. THE CHORD IS A GROUP OF FOUR OR MORE NOTES. The name of the chord is "shorthand". It can guide the bass player, it can be written as simply as possible, but the name can't translate a specific inversion, it can only imply content ...not order.
If you write as a guitarist and call E G D F# an Emin9, you're correct. THat's a correct name. If a pianist calls it Gmaj13, he's also correct. If he intends the bass player to play an "E", he will write it as Gmaj13/E. This is in no way "less correct" than Emin9. If the piece is in G, the chord may be a Diatonic 6th chord, or it may be leading to a tone center or key change to Dmaj7. Doesn't matter the context, the notes are the notes. Changing the name doesn't change the notes.
CHANGING THE NAME DOESN"T CHANGE THE NOTES. Pick the simplest, clearest name that takes into account the notation, ie. you "may" want to write the nominator of the chord in the accidentals of the key, though there are numerous exceptions. These details are for convenience sake.
Chill Mike asked a reasonable question, and even if the chord was not intended for a specific tune, we can still name it. It's just a name, the notes don't change.
In th context of Mike's passage, you could as well say D aug 11 sus2, but it's much clearer to write C7/D. My inclination to be humorous in my first post, which I see ought to have included an emoticon for the less perceptive readers, opened a door for all of the student of arranging to hit the pinata.
Whether it's C7/D or Bb13#11/D, you'd pick the name more with a nod to the intended reader than to the harmonic function.
If your sight reader is guitarist, and he can't read notation, you may write C7/D for the sake of brevity. It implies the actual inversion less aptly than D aug 11 sus2, but it's a heck of a lot easier to read.
For specific acoustic guitar passages like this, notation should be included ... chord formula shorthand doesn't, and shouldn't be expected to, substitute for actual notation when called for.