Suzuki method?

[Mickey]

My kid is almost six and wants to take violin lessons. The local place that people love teaches Suzuki. I looked it up and I'm not sure what to think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_method

Basically it's classical training minus the written notation (in the beginning). Lots of ear training, which is great.

Here's where I'm concerned: Not much improvisation or even learning the building blocks of improvisation. And improvisation, it seems to me, is a big part of the creative fun.

any of you with experience have an opinion about this? Is Suzuki ok? Should I try to supplement it with different kinds of lessons? Really stuck here, the kid is going to have limited patience no matter what.

Thanks for your opinions.

[stxrus]

most classical players, AFAIK, don't do much improvisation but can sight read really good

steve

[jazztele]

well, first, improvisation is gonna be a long way off...it's gonna take weeks to get your kid holding the bow and violin correctly and not having it make a horrible sound. suzuki is okay, in my book, it gets people playing quickly--and it's very popular, but i don't like the fact that it glosses over note reading very much at all. kids should be taught to read when they are young--it's easier to absorb it then.

the place i teach at does teach violin, but our teacher is adamantly anti-suzuki. i can ask her for more reasons why when i see her later this week.

classical method is traditionally weak on teaching improvisation. if you want your kid to learn to play the fiddle, instead of the violin, so to speak, see if there's any local folk music schools around...

[Mojohand40]

From my limited experience in this:
Suzuki students DO learn to sight read eventually and if they stick to it REALLY well. The ear training and "Make it SOUND like this" and such in the beginning is always done while following along, or at least "looking" at standard notation. It's total language immersion done with music as the language.
IMO (take it with a grain of salt) The Suzuki method is the best start for very young students.
Look for more info on line, there's tons of info on it.
I think your six year old is fortunate to have a Suzuki method teacher available.

[JayFreddy]

I consider myself to be Suzuki-influenced, although I am not Suzuki certified.

The main idea behind the Suzuki method is that we can learn music the same way we acquire language. I.e., we learn to talk first, then we learn to read and write.

With Suzuki, the kids learn to make music first, then how to write out basic scales and melodies (the equivalent of the learning the alphabet), and last but not least they learn to read.

With traditional classical music training, the kids are taught to read music before they can even play, never mind write.

Another plus to Suzuki is parental involvement. It sounds like you want to be part of your child's learning process, instead of just dropping them off at lessons. As far as established methods are concerned, Suzuki stands alone as far as making parental involvement a required part of the curriculum.

I think there are a lot of good ideas in the Suzuki method, but like anything, it's not perfect.

One of the major drawbacks to Suzuki is that it tends to be more expensive than traditional methods. Also, what started off as a results-driven alternative to classical dogma, has over the ensuing years (and especially since Mr. Suzuki's passing) developed its own almost cult-like dogma...

Like any method, the most important element is a good teacher and the student/teacher relationship. A bad teacher can ruin an otherwise good method. A good teacher can take a bad method and find ways to make it worthwhile.

From what you've said, it sounds like the program in your area is a good one, otherwise it wouldn't be very popular. I'm with Mojohand, if you can afford it, I think your 6-year old is lucky.

[Mickey]

I'm not seeing price as the issue around here. The local Suzuki "influenced" lesson is $25 for 30 minutes which is standard, and there's a music school downtown that does straight up Suzuki for reasonable rates.

You all put my mind at ease here, though I would very much appreciate your friend's insights, jazztele. The fundamental thing is not to bore her. I realize that 6 is young, but she keeps expressing interest and that's not nothing.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Mickey

I would very much appreciate your friend's insights, jazztele...

Me too. I have seen kids get good results with Suzuki, but I'd be interested to hear more of the downsides.

Prices in Dallas are pretty steep:

http://www.suzukidallas.com/public/e...ntandfees.aspx

Looks like the minimum is around $200 per month, with a 12 month commitment. This does not include the price of books, and Suzuki require you to buy a lot of their books too.

[Leon Grizzard]

Search around on this site and you'll find plenty of stuff. This will start you off.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...2924&hl=suzuki

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...3275&hl=suzuki

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...9389&hl=suzuki

[chucksmi]

Thing I like about Suzuki is that it stresses rythym. That's pretty important.

"...Here's where I'm concerned: Not much improvisation or even learning the building blocks of improvisation. And improvisation, it seems to me, is a big part of the creative fun. ..."

Dude, the kid is six.

[Al Watsky]

Suzuki is a time proven idea at this point. Don't expect pop music results, the program is essentially initially a "classical by ear" approach. At the higher levels the students, can and do read. Parent involvement is a big part of the method as well. In fact my daughter doing Suzuki is what started me on the violin. I still play BTW , but she stopped !
Suzuki training for the instructors is mandatory , you child will be well taught and with a good start can go in any direction they like.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by chucksmi

Dude, the kid is six.

Friend, I've heard an eight year old nail country changes on the fly in her own band with original songs. She was also having a blast. As you can imagine, these are not skills she learned in Suzuki.

Just wondering from experienced people if pop/improvisation is an advisable route at this point, or whether to go "classical." Or whether there is a happy medium.

[Califiddler]

Classical instruction will not include any improvisation. A fiddle teacher will teach one or more of the following styles: old-time; bluegrass; Texas contest style; Irish; Scottish; western swing; swing; etc. Some of those styles (bluegrass, western swing, swing) will involve a great deal of improvisation. Others (old-time, Irish, Scottish) not very much. Texas contest style involves improvisation at very high levels - think Mark O'Connor, who improvised during competitions at Weiser.

If I were going to start a child that young on classical lessons, I would definitely go with Suzuki. I think that the most important thing for a child that age is that she not quit. IMHO, traditional classical teaching, because it delays the joy of making music until the student can read music, is basically designed to make kids quit. Suzuki gets you playing right away.

The other huge advantage of Suzuki vs. traditional classical instruction is that Suzuki kids listen to the material over and over again. When we were looking for a piano teacher for my daughter, some of the teachers wouldn't even play a piece for the student before the student was supposed to learn it from the sheet music. The student was supposed to play the piece without ever hearing it first! Imagine the level of sight-reading ability necessary to do that. Plus, if you've never heard the piece, how do you even know if you like it enough to want to learn it?

By listening to stuff over and over, Suzuki students develop their ability to learn stuff by ear, which is essential if you ever want to learn the folk styles, for which there is often no sheet music available. Let's face it, if you want to learn a Vassar Clements break off a CD, you're going to have to figure it out by ear.

We wound up going with a Suzuki instructor for my daughter's piano lessons. She started sight-reading after about 3 months. She still quit after 3 years, but oh well, at least she had the exposure.

It is certainly possible to make the transition to folk fiddle styles after years of classical training. I have known lots of people who have done this. The difficulty is in learning to play without sheet music in front of you, learning about chord changes and how to play over them, how to improvise, how to play with some swing or lilt, as opposed to a metronomically even rhythm as in classical music. And learning not to use vibrato all the time.

The advantage that a classically-trained violinist will have in that situation is the technical ability that comes from years of classical training. When I go to bluegrass jams, I can tell if a fiddle player had classical training just by hearing the player warm up. The tone, intonation, etc. is all there. In contrast, I had no classical training and took up fiddle when I was about 30 years old. I'm only going to be so good.

A few years ago a band called Open Road played at the CBA bluegrass festival in Grass Valley, CA. They were very good, especially their fiddle player. After their set I bought a CD and got it autographed by all the band members, then spoke with the fiddle player. He was just a kid, like 22 years old or so. He told me that he had been playing bluegrass for only 3 years. Knowing that he couldn't have been playing the instrument for only 3 years, I asked him what he had done before that. He said that he had done years of Suzuki violin with his mom as his Suzuki parent.

I guess in a way, because of the emphasis on listening and learning by ear, you could consider Suzuki training the "happy medium" between folk fiddle instruction and traditional classical violin instruction.

I would start your daughter with the Suzuki training. After 5-6 years of that, she'll have the chops to transition into any other style of music that she wants.

Good luck!

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Califiddler

We wound up going with a Suzuki instructor for my daughter's piano lessons. She started sight-reading after about 3 months. She still quit after 3 years, but oh well, at least she had the exposure.

I had three years of piano as a kid and dropped it. But it meant that when I picked up guitar at age 30, I way way ahead in understanding basic theory. I doubt I would have even tried that had I not had the exposure as a kid.

Great post. Great and helpful posts everybody. This is the info I need. My fear was that she would dread lessons, which is the worst possible scenario. Suzuki sounds like a happy medium indeed.