Blues to jazz

[GitHead]

Hi, I'm a blues guitarist who wants to expand his vocabulary. Since comming to this forum I have found out about some great music and that has given me a thirst to grow. I'm loving the chicken pickin stuff and I'm loving the jazz stuff. Its become an addiction really. I'm about ready to trade my kids in on a Telecaster!

The purpose for this post is to discuss some jazz blues songs that are good to disect and study for the blues guitarist who wants to learn the jazz language.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

[bingy]

IMO there is only one place to start:
T-Bone Walker (Stormy Monday is the quintessential cross over tune.)

[GitHead]

Thanks Bingy, I'm going to Amazon it right now.

[jefrs]

+1 on Stormy Monday
Most anything from late swing era R&B comes with jazz influenced blues and jazz-blues, even BB King throws in jazz licks. Once you've heard it you can't go back to just three chord blues.

[tjalla]

Two places to start: T-Bone Walker and Lonnie Johnson.



Then swing blues guys like Pee Wee Crayton and Hollywood Fats

Or Jazz guys with blues leanings - Grant Green, Barney Kessell.

[wangdangdoodle]

Do you mean recommendations for music, or purley on a technical level? All the guys mentioned above are great to listen to.

As someone who started off as a blues guy myself... I'd say the first thing to would be to learn some Jazz chords. In Swing/Jump Blues 9ths, 13ths, 6ths, diminished, are all common and bring much more colour and harmonic interest.

Single note wise... the best thing to start doing is target the 3rd's and 7th's in a Jazz/Blues 12 bar progression.

[stevieboy]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Or Jazz guys with blues leanings - Grant Green, Barney Kessell.

Add Kenny Burrell to that list too. Especially his work with Jimmy Smith the organist, along with Stanley Turentine.. To me that's the ultimate crossover jazz/blues stuff. You find in the jazz section (that is, if you can find a record store), but they played some gutbucket blues IMO.

If you haven't, check out the "Swingy Jazzy Blues Chords" thread in this very section of the forum.

[GitHead]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

I've done some major downloading today. I got some T Bone and Barney Kessell and BB and Pee Wee Crayton and Hollywood Flats and Barney Kessell and Grant Green and Kenny Burrell.

I appreciate all the suggestions but I was wondering. All these recordings sound pretty old. Not that I have a problem with listening to old recordings but I was wondering if there are any current people doing this kind of stuff?

Thanks

[Corey]

+1 on Stormy Monday. Another good one is Blue Bossa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sr7BXinJMw

[jefrs]

I saw The Cadillac Kings recently. They're not blues and they're not jazz but somewhere in-between. Maybe semi-pro but they're on iTunes http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...23687&s=143444
I had a natter to them. The lead was playing an original 53/54 Harmony Stratotone.

[Axis29]

Originally Posted by GitHead

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

I've done some major downloading today. I got some T Bone and Barney Kessell and BB and Pee Wee Crayton and Hollywood Flats and Barney Kessell and Grant Green and Kenny Burrell.

I appreciate all the suggestions but I was wondering. All these recordings sound pretty old. Not that I have a problem with listening to old recordings but I was wondering if there are any current people doing this kind of stuff?

Thanks

Most of the bigger acts in Jazz have moved further from the Blues. I think after Coltrane, many feel they have to push the limits. But if you find guys playing in smaller clubs, I think you'll find more Bluesy jazz... or maybe I'm just not listening to the right radio stations and finding the guys I'd like to hear more!

The Bebop crowd of the late 50's and into the 60's started expanding blues based songs and pushing the ideas of substitution. This continues to this day. However, I am still drawn to the more bluesy sounds of jazz myself.

Check out Tuck Andress:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M56QwDjE6PQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfjFdtMlH6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLujUQx6mk

Amazing guitarist....

A more Bluesy guy for me is Clarence Gatemouth Brown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT42VwUTsRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTpg9f4oF8

This is where I lvie when it comes to music... Wishing I could play Jazz, but loving the Blues....

[jefrs]

It's certainly out there. The local, cof, jazz scene tends more to swing then bebop and there are a lot of jazz elements creeping into the local, cof, blues scene. But these are not big acts and it's not main stream, so little recorded.

[tjalla]

Looking for a newer guy? Grab Duke Robillard's Uptown Blues, Jazz, Rock Swing DVD.

[nosuch]

chitlins con carne by kenny burell would be a nice song to learn. simple but effective

[GitHead]

Wow that Calarence Gatemouth Brown was cooool! What an unusual picking style. All index finger but hes pretty quick picking that way. That one oclock jump was really hopping!

The Tuck Andres was cool too. I love the way he redid the Hendrix. its like he peeled away the efects and revealed the real song living underneath.

The Duke R stuff is very cool. I have it along with Duke in concert coming via Netflix.

Thanks again for all your suggestions

[tjalla]

Sidenote gem - anyone notice Alison Krauss in the Gatemouth "Okie Dokie stomp" clip? Seems he's playing bluegrass on her fiddle

[GitHead]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Sidenote gem - anyone notice Alison Krauss in the Gatemouth "Okie Dokie stomp" clip? Seems he's playing bluegrass on her fiddle

Yah and I like that little talkin riff he does at the end!

[GitHead]

Okay an addon question. Anybody know where I can find a roadmap for chord and scale options for blues progressions? I mean from a jazz perspective.

[jazztele]

alright, so let's start with something simple: I7 IV7 V7 blues. (lets do key of A)

over the I, you can play:

A blues scale (or minor pentatonic)
A major pentatonic
A mixolydian (major scale with a flat seventh)

over the IV

A blues scale/minor pentatonic
D mixolydian (D major with a flat seventh)

over the V

A blues scale/minor pentatonic
E mixolydian (E major with a flatted seventh)

you can also play hybrids of each, so, over the A, start with a minor pentatonic line but land on a C# (the major third)

you can also think arpeggios/chord tones and throw the scales by the wayside...i like this approach. in other words, when playing over the A7, play the notes that make up an A7. or, get a little deeper, and try A9. A11. A13. If your ears like it and it doesn't clash with the melody, any dominant 7th chord can be extended further into the 9th, 11th and 13th range (11ths are probably less common than 9th or 13th, which have "instant" bluesy sounds to them)

now, in order to start sounding jazzier, you're going to want to play the notes between the notes too...huh? I mean, approach the "money notes" chromatically. check this lick out over an I in a three chord blues in A

------------------5-------------------------------
---------5-6-sl-7----8-7-6-5----5-5---------------
--5-sl-6----------------------7----5-h-6----------
------------------------------------------7-6-5---
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------

what's happening there? really major pentatonic to minor pentatonic back to major, with a few chromatic passing tones. the last note of the series is the G, the flat seventh, which can be thought of as returning to minor or sugesting mixolydian (mixolydian is essentially the scale that most directly relates to a dom7th chord--not the only choice, but never a bad one)

again, this is just a start. but if you dig it, I'll keep it coming.

[stevieboy]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Sidenote gem - anyone notice Alison Krauss in the Gatemouth "Okie Dokie stomp" clip? Seems he's playing bluegrass on her fiddle

That's backstage at the big all star blues tribute concert they had in NY, which is the subject of the "Lightning in a Bottle" DVD.

[wangdangdoodle]

Newer stuff? Charlie and the nightcats and James Harman.

[Hucklebilly]

Originally Posted by GitHead

Okay an addon question. Anybody know where I can find a roadmap for chord and scale options for blues progressions? I mean from a jazz perspective.

http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=GW959DVD

[GitHead]

Originally Posted by jazztele

again, this is just a start. but if you dig it, I'll keep it coming.

I dig it!

I do know those scales but I seem to have a hard time sounding Jazzy. I can play them and change them up with a reasonable amount of comfort. And it does sound cool to land on 13 but I still sound like a blues guy with one cool note.

Thats why I was trying to find some good songs to cop lick for lick. Throwing analysis out the window (just for a moment) and going based off an impression it sounds like the Jazzers are playing more arpegio related licks than scalar. I am totally a scale player at this time. And they seem to blaze through these substitutions. Like I moving to IV would really be (I7 9 13), (I7 b9 b13), (IV7 9). Sorry if this looks confusing but I'm trying to spell out the chord tones. Now when I play that as an arpegio it just sounds dumb. I think mostly because its a formula rather than a phrase.

And when I see scale books that show a diminished scale over a tri-tone sub chord that exists for one beat I find it rather hard to implement. I mean sure I can barf a few diminished notes out but it's not very musical.

I like the idea of your chromatic riff. I can't wait to get home tonight and try it. It kind of reminds me of how a bass player might think about aproaching a target note.

BTW: Thanks, I appreciate your help!

[GitHead]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

Newer stuff? Charlie and the nightcats and James Harman.

Thanks, I can't get to MySpace from here but I will definitely check it out tonight!

[GitHead]

Originally Posted by Hucklebilly

http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=GW959DVD

Thanks for the suggestion. Have you used this book? I have some books. They just are too formulaic and seem to take scales and chord out of a real musical context. Like I have this book from Ted Green. It has a hundred different scales and he recomments practicing them 2 chords/scales tied together at a time. I got about three pages before my brain leaked out my ear canal and I had to listen to John Mayall records slowed down to half speed for a month to recover.

[wangdangdoodle]

Originally Posted by Hucklebilly

http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=GW959DVD

+1!

This is actually a DVD, and not a book! Very worthwhile. I know Adrian in person and he's a fantastic musician with a huge knowledge of Jazz and Blues and everything in between. He's known as one of the leading Jazz/Blues guitarists and educators.

At a first watch some concepts might be a bit deep harmonically, but after a few times it will start to sink in. There's literally months of material to practise all on one DVD. Great thing about it his he explains things in terms of intervals and arpeggios and very little does he refer to modes.

He literally explains all the blues concepts of Jazz guitarists such as Pat Martino, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery. This will give you a really good insight into Jazz in general!

[GitHead]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

+1!

This is actually a DVD, and not a book! Very worthwhile. I know Adrian in person and he's a fantastic musician with a huge knowledge of Jazz and Blues and everything in between. He's known as one of the leading Jazz/Blues guitarists and educators.

At a first watch some concepts might be a bit deep harmonically, but after a few times it will start to sink in. There's literally months of material to practise all on one DVD. Great thing about it his he explains things in terms of intervals and arpeggios and very little does he refer to modes.

He literally explains all the blues concepts of Jazz guitarists such as Pat Martino, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery. This will give you a really good insight into Jazz in general!

Awesome, thank you very much! Good thing tomorrow is payday!!!!

Sorry if I sounded like a snot. The description does really sound like exactly what I asked for!

[weelie]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

+1!

This is actually a DVD, and not a book!

Sure, the book's called "Cool blues & hot jazz guitar". :)

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by GitHead

I like the idea of your chromatic riff. I can't wait to get home tonight and try it. It kind of reminds me of how a bass player might think about aproaching a target note.

!

well, first off, you're welcome.

jazz gets painted as a pretty complicated thing, but the basics are well, rather basic. for classic jazz sounds:

A. when the chord changes, change how you're playing. if you stick to one scale or set of notes over a whole progression, it won't sound jazzy. if you outline the changes to the tune with what you're playing, by either changing scale or arpeggio or whatever, it might start getting jazzier.

B. there are no bad notes, only bad resolutions. this means all 12 notes of the chromatic "scale" are fair game at any time, the trick is stringing them together in interesting ways, and in knowing where to land. that last part's the biggie. knowing where to land. landing on a chord tone is never a bad idea.

a lot of more trad. cats will say "don't think scales," and while i'll often think like that when playing--it can be limiting. there's nothing wrong with adapting the vocabulary you already have. the fretboard lights up into chord shapes when i'm playing, essentially, but i also know what scales have cool sounds (as related to the chords at hand) in 'em and what notes comprise 'em. So don't limit yourself. take it in small chunks, and work on one idea at a time. i've been tinkering with jazz since i was 17, and been essentially playing nothing but jazz (aside from a few fill in gigs here and there) for seven years, and i still learn something new every day. I don't think I'll ever be done learning. That's big and abstract and scary, but it's also kind of comforting...I'll never have to be bored.

listening is the key.

[wangdangdoodle]

Originally Posted by GitHead

Awesome, thank you very much! Good thing tomorrow is payday!!!!

Sorry if I sounded like a snot. The description does really sound like exactly what I asked for!

No problem, glad I could help. It's nice to see there are still decant folk who post around here.

[GitHead]

Originally Posted by wangdangdoodle

No problem, glad I could help. It's nice to see there are still decant folk who post around here.

The problem now is how I'm gonna explain to the wife why I need to spend another $30 on more guitar stuff.

Maybe I better buy some flowers on the way home.

[Corey]

Gatemouth's Chicken Shift is one of the coolest guitar tunes on the go and perfect for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFML2zYhsSk

Dang I love that!

[octatonic]

Start by analysing 'Real Book' tunes.
If you can get inside some II V I's (both major and minor) and analyse what is going on.

Also start by targeting chord tones in your soloing- if you can play a II V I and hit the notes of the chords as an arpeggio (in many positions) then you will have a good grounding for playing jazz.

[petesguitar1]

I found that listening to Stevie Ray Vaughan's more jazzy stuff also helped bridge a bit of a gap. Stangs Swang, Goin Home, Chitlins Con Carne (Kenny Burrell) - there are more but these were my first.

Also, check out Justin Sandercoe - he has some cool youtube vids etc on going from blues to jazz.

[jazztele]

I'll chime in on reccomending grant green. really accessible stuff--you'll hear it and say, I can do this. Then you'll try to do it and realize how good grant was! (that's what happened to me)

dig the pre 1965 or so stuff. I know you were looking for newer music, but grant did his best stuff before then.

[GitHead]

I did download some Grant Green. I listened briefly but I haven't dug in too deep yet. I'm still working my way through the Kenny Burrell tunes. Thats some great guitar. I have Blues for Del, Fever, Easy Living, Travelin', Soft Winds, Summertime, Freight Train, All Blues, Autumn Leaves, Blue Lights, Burning Spear, It Happens, Midnight Blue. I didn't get the Chitlins Con Carne as I had already downloaded them but I'll go back for that one.

[jefrs]

Real Book +1

e.g. ISBN 0-634-06038-4

[voodoo_idol]

In my opinion, nobody blended blues and jazz (plus R&B and rock) better than Mickey Baker. The best collection of his headlining and session work in on Revola's 2007 release 'In the '50s: Hit, Git & Split'. Amazing stuff. And he wrote the book on jazz guitar, literally.

You can sample it here:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p...0:wxfrxzwhldte

It's all great, but tracks 17-31 just tear it up.

[rsguitarplayer]

Grant Green, Album-Solid

[Tele66]

You might enjoy Robben Fords DVD's as well. In particular 'The Blues & Beyond'. He does a great section on 'I Ain't Got Nuthin' But the Blues' which is a great bluesy tune done in a Jazz style (or vice versa!). This is an excellent tune to get used to how the Jazz cats tackle a blues.

On TB&B there is also a section on playing on a groove ala Miles Davis.