So, what is "a song?"

[Guran]

Some post in another thread last week made me thinking about this.What exactly is "a song"? .There is probably a better term for it, but as I can't think of it right now I will call it "a song".

Is it the melody? Is it the melody in relation to the chords? That would count out single-voiced instruments or one voice vocals, right?

What happens when you re-arrange a song, like giving Hey Good Looking the full jazz treatment: Is it still the same song? I would say "Yes", but why is it still the same? For harmonic content?

And what if you take a major song and make it minor? I have heard that being done, and it has still clearly been "the same song". However, there has been lyrics, which may help it staying "the same".

Maybe we can boil it down to this: When you copyright a song, what exactly is it that gets copyrighted? These questions are not meant as much in a legal sense as in music discussion though.

I believe the lyrics is it's own entity, so we can leave that out for now.

[blacklinefish]

Great topic, this should be good.

I am pretty sure that a song is sung.

[Tim Armstrong]

Yeah, a song is words and music.

Tim

[Guran]

That was why I was reluctant to use the term "song". I guess there is another word... Well, composition maybe!

How much alteration can a composition take and still be the same composition? One obvious answer is none, because then it won't be the same. Still, it would in many cases be regarded as the same composition, song, tune or whatever word you choose. No?

[boneyguy]

I think the original meaning of the term 'song' describes a particular form or structure (ABA or AABA) of a composition.

Now it usually implies a piece of music that has a lyric that is sung.

[getbent]

A song needn't have lyrics. A song, I'd guess has a recognizable melody and form. I'm sure there are legal definitions since the courts have had to judge if one song was really just a malformation of another.

I'd disagree that a different arrangement would make a song no longer the song. A song has an essence, a critical set of attributes that define it as being unique.... in other words, I think a song can be a resilient creature that can take many different treatments and still be itself so long as key elements of melody and structure are in place.

Defining those elements is dependent on the individual song rather than the more generalized concept of 'songness' if that makes any sense. In fact, folks even talk about a song being 'ruined' because critical elements have been removed or changed.

[BritishBluesBoy]

The word song itself implies singing. It needs at least one voice and words but it doesn't necessarily need accompaniment. Without singing it is a piece of music or a tune, but not a song.

[Lathem]

Originally Posted by BritishBluesBoy

The word song itself implies singing. It needs at least one voice and words but it doesn't necessarily need accompaniment. Without singing it is a piece of music or a tune, but not a song.

That's the way things are in my lexicon as well. A "song" without lyrics is a "tune."

Back to the original question, I think it requires at least two lawyers and one judge to determine whether two songs (or tunes) are the same.

[jazztele]

what if a song has words, but is played as an instrumental version?

i think i like getbent's take the most so far--recognizable melody, recognizable form.

words are very/ unnescessary/they can only do harm (depeche mode, enjoy the silence)

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by getbent

A song needn't have lyrics. A song, I'd guess has a recognizable melody and form. I'm sure there are legal definitions since the courts have had to judge if one song was really just a malformation of another.

I'd disagree that a different arrangement would make a song no longer the song. A song has an essence, a critical set of attributes that define it as being unique.... in other words, I think a song can be a resilient creature that can take many different treatments and still be itself so long as key elements of melody and structure are in place.

Defining those elements is dependent on the individual song rather than the more generalized concept of 'songness' if that makes any sense. In fact, folks even talk about a song being 'ruined' because critical elements have been removed or changed.

In the mandolin world, a song does need lyrics. If it doesn't have lyrics, we call it a tune. I see others have already said this. Sorry, I replied before finishing the entire thread.

[klasaine]

Technically yes a "tune" is instrumental and a "song" is sung (lyrics). That's a bit semantical though. I too like Getbents definition - recognizable in melody and form. (Greek - μελῳδία, melōidía - tune, voice or song)

Many times to actually be able to recognize a melody we in fact do need some harmony. There's only 12 notes. In the west we've been arranging and re-arranging those same 12, give or take a temperament or two, for over 1100 years. There's not that many combinations. A melodies juxtaposition within a harmonic and rhythmic context definitely helps to define it's songness or tuneness. I would say that Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star sounds the same whether sung in the original French, played as one of Mozart's variations or done by a pre school class. We recognize the French national anthem seated squarely in the middle of Tchaikovsky's '1812' Overture as we do in the intro of the Beatles 'All you Need is Love'.

[Astro1176]

I think of a 'song' as an organisational and hierarchical unit, in the same way for language you have letters, words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs, chapters and novels.

First we have a note.

Then a few of these can be organised into a melody, a chord and/or a riff

A group of these form a 'section'. There are different types of sections, for example verses, choruses, codas, etc.

When some of these sections are combined, voila, we have a song!

(And if you put a load of songs together, you have an album or a set).

[J.T.S]

To me, a song is performed by a human voice, with or without words and music... - if theres no human voice - but still music, I call it a composition or a number, with or without chords and tones, could be strictly percussive and doesnt need a form...
To me, all of it is music... Each to their own...

[JayFreddy]

Song = A composition with singing

Tune = A recognizable melody, with or without singing.

[stevieboy]

I am not opposed to referring to an instrumental melody as a song, but really it's not. A song has to be sung. But it doesn't have to have words. Birds sing as do whales.

[BritishBluesBoy]

Originally Posted by stevieboy

But it doesn't have to have words. Birds sing as do whales.

Very good point...

[Guran]

It was a bit unfortunate that I used the word "song" in OP... It should have been "tune" or "composition" instead. Sorry for being unclear!

Yes, Getbent is definitely thinking along the lines that I did when I asked.

Klasaine - You're making a point about how Twinkle would be recognized, almost no matter what we do to it, while other tunes/songs would need more of a context.

Jazztele - I was about to include your point about instrumental versions in my OP, but somehow it slipped my mind.

Astro1176 - That's a good definition, but more of a technical definition of how a song is built. It is a very good answer to What is a song? though!

I was more thinking about if we have a given composition, what can we do to it and still have "the same" song/tune? What is the core identity or core essence of a given composition? Of course i varies from composition to composition, but I'm curious if we can find some common answers.

[blacklinefish]

Originally Posted by stevieboy

Birds sing as do whales.

That's easy, whales have a voice. I don't really care for the way it sounds, but it does seem like they are singing. I have no idea what birds are doing, though.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Guran

Klasaine - You're making a point about how Twinkle would be recognized, almost no matter what we do to it, while other tunes/songs would need more of a context.

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that the song or tune is the part that, no matter how much you mess with it, it's still identifiable as the tune. Or, it's the tune until you mess with it enough that it's NOT recognizable any more.

[charlie chitlin]

In traditional music (the boy plays Irish and wifey plays Old-Time) they strictly differentiate songs from tunes.
Tunes don't have words.