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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:46 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Help With Diminished and Altered Phrasing

I'm kinda' stumped. I know there are some heavy players here, so I'm hoping some of you might be kind enough to give me some tips.

Whenever I use diminished scales, they come out sounding sounding Latin or neo-classical...

I can handle melodic minor in the context of straight minor as well as Lydian #4 over a IV7 chord, but I'm still trying to wrap my ears around the super Locrian, aka altered scale.

Can anyone suggest some good Tele-style playing that incorporates these tonalities, in the context of phrasing?

Thanks in advance!

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Old January 26th, 2009, 10:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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When players refer to diminished and augmented scales they usually mean arpeggios. At least those are more common in country and western swing than phrases based on the full scales.

Here's a lick from Brent Mason's "Pick it Apart," which ends in a C# arpeggio starting on the 5th string:


G____________________________(C#dim)_________G
e--3--------------------------------------------------
B----5-4-3---------3---3-5p3-----------------5p3------
G----------6-4p3-4---4-------4-----------3-6-----4----
D------------------------------5-2---2-5-----------5--
A----------------------------------4------------------
E----------------------------------------------------

Alt scale phrases over the dominant that are kept short and resolve into the I chord won't sound too outside:

_______Dm7___Galt____________CM7_____
e----|----------------------------------
B----|----------------------------------
G----|-----2-5-6-4h6p4-3----------------
D----|---3-----------------6\5-3\2--------
A--4-|-5--------------------------------
E----|----------------------------------
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I’m with you Jay Freddy. In fact, I find the 4# note sounds fine in the bottom register, but when I get up to the higher strings, it sounds out. And as far as using 5# melodic minor as the altered 5 dominant scale - it sounds great on the couch and terrible at the gig.

Where’s Tim “Mr. Melodic Minor” Bowen?
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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1. Use a diminished arppegio 1/2 step above a dominant . This gives a 7b9 sound which resolves neatly to a I maj7 or 1 Minor(its much easier to hear the arpeggio rather than the scale at first). And you can move it up or down three frets before resolving


2. Personally the altered scale always sounds mechanical to me. I prefer to add one of the outside notes to a regular dominant 7 eg add the b5,#5 ,b9 or #9 of your choice to a plainer run.I find its easier to play and listen too this
(obviously were talking V I movement here)

3.A similair trick is to play a regular lick over the IIm. repeat up three frets for the V and move back a half step for the I chord

To be honest I allways find it easier to keep the chords in my mind than all the possible scales that can work.

YMMV etc
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeocaster View Post
1. Use a diminished arppegio 1/2 step above a dominant . This gives a 7b9 sound which resolves neatly to a I maj7 or 1 Minor(its much easier to hear the arpeggio rather than the scale at first). And you can move it up or down three frets before resolving

YMMV etc

I like that too. For the the problem note in altered dominant is the b5, ie Ab in the D altered dominant scale. It's a half step above tonic, and just sounds too outside for me.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:48 PM   #6 (permalink)
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the altered scale sounds very hip---over altered dominants. i usually just think "melodic minor up a half step," so in other words, Ab melodic minor over a G alt chord.

here's a lick i might use over that G7alt, 8th notes, running back to the I (ending on the E over a Cmaj7)

-3-4-3--------------|---------------------------------
--------4-----------|-------------------------------
----------4---------|-------------------------------
-------------5-4-3--|--2-------------------------------
---------------------|-----------------------------
---------------------|-----------------------------

but without the backdrop of a pretty juicy chord, these things can sound a little "outside,"--but that's also what they're there for. playing an altered scale lick over a straight up G7 is going to sound pretty whacked out. but pretty cool, perhaps, as well.

as far as the diminished and other symmetrical scales, they're not my favorite...they do sound a little "patterny," so i don't use them a whole lot.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 03:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valvey View Post
When players refer to diminished and augmented scales they usually mean arpeggios. At least those are more common in country and western swing than phrases based on the full scales.
I can find juicey notes when I just stick to chord tones/arpeggios, but I have a hard time getting diminished or altered scales to sing for me in the same way as vanilla-modes or blues scales... Thanks for those examples, I like the 2nd one alot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard View Post
...it sounds great on the couch and terrible at the gig.
You just described about 95% of my best licks! lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazztele View Post
i usually just think "melodic minor up a half step," so in other words, Ab melodic minor over a G alt chord.
So Super Locrian is the same as Altered?

Code:
Ab melodic minor over a G root gives:

G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F 

Gb Ionian, with a #1 over a G root gives:

G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
I think a lightbulb just went off... I need to practice my melodic minor stuff more. If anyone has listening samples or Youtube links, that would be great.

Thank you.

Last edited by JayFreddy; January 27th, 2009 at 06:19 AM. Reason: typo...
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Old January 27th, 2009, 05:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard
Where’s Tim “Mr. Melodic Minor” Bowen?
Ha, I'm here. Hey, where's that "dissing the melodic minor scale" thread that you promised us?!

Not much new here from me. As for the "altered dominant scale", I too mostly visualize as melodic minor up a half step from a V7 chord. There are other altered chords to associate it with, but the way I learned to see it (hear it) was to connect it with 7#9 grips that I know, even if the V7 isn't "altered" per se. I don't use the stuff as much as when I was regularly gigging, say, the tune "Invitation", but I still find plenty of blue collar tunes where it sounds and feels right to me - for instance, the old chestnut "House of the Rising Sun" and Dylan's "One More Cup of Coffee". Some players dig the sounds over I7 and IV7 chords, but I sort of hate it. That's personal taste, nothing more, nothing less.

I do really dig the Lydian Dominant (mixolydian w/ #4/11; melodic minor up a 5th from root, whatever you want to call it and however you want to associate it), over I7 and IV7 chords. But it's all about context of material... I can't see the point of being cerebrally and harmonically "hip" just because you know that the "theory" basically supports it - if the tune wants a Chuck Berry lick and that's what I hear, that's probably what I'll play. That said, I do recall tossing in some #11's on the tune "Matchbox" over the weekend, because that's what I heard and felt at the time. Next time I'll probably hear something different. I first became curious about this particular sound when I was attempting to transcribe Wynton Kelly's piano ride on "Freddie the Freeloader" from Miles Davis' Kind of Blue record, but the sounds had been around forever prior to my discovery of them.

As for using a melodic minor scale over a minor chord with root of the same name, I find a few blue collar tune applications for this as well, notably Dylan's "Simple Twist of Fate". When the A major chord changes to an A minor chord for a second before resolving to an E major, no set of notes better implies that transition than does an A melodic minor idea as resolving quite definitively to a G# (3rd of E), but that's just the way I sometimes hear it.

I so rarely encounter actual diminished chords in current material that I sort of enjoy going with an angular approach when they show up... half a bar of a diminished chord doesn't exactly allow one to settle in and milk a teet, so to speak. I dig superimposing diminished up a half step from root (usually IV7 chord) on bar #6 in a 12 bar or bar #4 in an 8 bar (such as Broonzy's "Key to the Highway"), as has already been mentioned.

As for phrasing with diminished ideas in a less angular and perhaps more conversational way, I'd suggest incorporating them within positions that you're already familiar with, in static 7th chord situations. For instance, over an E7 chord, find the diminished stuff that lives within the major pentatonic that occupies frets 9-12, as well as that which lives within the blues scale of frets 0-3 or 12-15. As you know, diminished cycles in minor thirds , so it's fun with connect the dots from there on out.

As for melodic minor stuff, I think it's helpful to see and hear the whole tone and augmented stuff that dwells within. If you're playing frets 5-8 on a guitar, you should be able to see and hear how a basic E augmented voicing plays with an A minor chord, a D7 chord, or an E7 chord, or at least I've found these associations to be useful.

Last edited by Tim Bowen; January 27th, 2009 at 06:06 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 06:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks for that.

I'm thinking I need to practice singing these scales more. Most of the time I can hum a melody that fits over a chord change, but even when I have other options, my "internal radio station" is tuned into the straight chord tones, natural modes, or the blues scale. In other words, the sounds of these scales aren't second-nature to me yet, so I have a hard time using them in the flow of a musical moment.

BTW, Here's a cool video I found by Joe Diorio:

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Old January 27th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #10 (permalink)
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A Scathing Denunciation of Melodic Minor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bowen View Post
Ha, I'm here. Hey, where's that "dissing the melodic minor scale" thread that you promised us?!
Too much work. Okay, here goes:

In thinking about this topic, I’ve gotten out some books, and read some more about Melodic Minor and its modes. What are the virtues of thinking of those collections of notes as modes of the Melodic Minor of some root other than the chord of the moment, as opposed to variations or alterations of more the more basic scales, Major, Dominant, and Minor?

As I understand it, outside of playing Jazz tunes writtne in melodic minor, the most common applications of those melodic minor modes are:

Using the melodic minor scale one half step above the root of a dominant chord to yield the altered dominant scale for that dominant chord, ie Eb melodic minor over a D7 chord to yield the D altered dominant scale.

But it has nothing to do with Eb melodic minor; it is just a convenient way to remember how to get all the usual alterations of the D dominant scale, assuming you already know how the play the melodic minor scale, which may be a fairly big assumption in some circles. This is, after all, the Tele forum.

Another use is the play the 4th (?) mode of the melodic minor to yield the overtone dominant scale, which is the same as the dominant/mixolydian scale, but with a #4 scale degree, ie D overtone dominant scale has G# rather than G. Seems like an awfully convoluted was to get something when you could just remember to raise the 4th scale degree a half step.

Now I’m just a country boy, and got left far behind a long way back, but Ted Greene seems to get a little respect, and he takes a chord scale approach, as he says in the introduction to Single Note Jazz Guitar Soloing:

“(I)f a book included good sounds and had some explanations or principles, it always seemed to be confusing, and to propose some very cumbersome burdens on the brain. For instance, one well-intentioned author told me that proper scale of use with an Eb7#9#5 chord is the G Lydian Augmented scale. When I read this, I asked myself, “Doesn’t this scale really have the same notes as an Eb7 scale with a few modifications?” .... One of my basic outlooks on many things for the last five or six years seems to be, “Get rid of the confusion where possible” or “What’s really going on here?”

Specifically regarding the modes of Melodic Minor, M. Greene said :

“If the sounds you have just played seem familiar, it is because you already had many of them by other names. For instant, F Melodic Minor = Bb Overtone Dominant = Dm7b5 (Type 1) .....As in similar situations before, I highly recommend that you not try to take a shortcut that will only end up costing you more time and confusion in the long run, that if you had just learned what you were supposed to in the first place. How logical does it sem to you, to be thinking Bb Overt. Dom Scale, C major scale, and B major scale, over the chord progression Fm6 G7 F#13 Fm6? This is just one example of what can happen if you follow the ‘short-cut’ methods in question here.”

So unless you are playing actual melodic minor mode tunes by Wayne Shorter or something, how is this modal approach better, or more useful, than learning the cool notes as alterations of more basic scales?

That would not excuse a diligent student from studying these modes. If you want to be a real jazz player, you need to know them to understand and play tunes by Wayne Shorter, Chick Correa and others who wrote in those modes, to certain ones are good over specific types of chords. Even if you don’t aspire to real jazz playing, having some academic understanding helps you if you want to take a show tune or something, remembering that C Melodic Minor is a good choice over Cm#7. So I'm not really agin' it.

To me, as I posted above, some of the notes sound too outside; great on the couch, bad at the American Legion Hall.

Last edited by Leon Grizzard; January 27th, 2009 at 08:54 PM. Reason: typos
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Old January 27th, 2009, 01:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Speaking of melodic minor, Don Mock has a couple of books out. One covers the melodic minor and the other one covers the whole tone scale I think.

Very good.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 01:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Leon, basically your right on. "If" you know the various 'altered' notes over the various altered dominant chords then it's easy to say, "G half step / whole step diminished over a G13b9". The reason that so many like to learn the Melodic minor scale and it's modes, is that all of the various overtone and altered dominant scales (as well as sets of intervals) come from one of the modes of the mel. min. scale. So you only have to learn one 'collection of notes or intervals' and then apply those 'sounds' to many, many types of chords and progressions. If you know a diminished scale and a melodic minor scale there's not a single alt.dom. you can't play over.

It was weird for me at first too because I learned the various altered scales in the earlier stages of my jazz education. But, once I was 'hipped' to mel.min. and I realized that all those different alt. scales were just one mel.min. starting on a different tone, my brain thought that that was easier(?). Also, for us guitarists, you can look at it simply as one finger pattern (at least as a start) in different places on the neck.

Looked at from another POV ... in jazz generally and be-bop specifically ... playing the root, especially over a resolving dominant chord, is not a great choice. So, not thinking the root scale can help one get away from that.

Ted Greene did in fact hate that method (though he perfectly understood it too) but he also knew literally and instantaneously every possible scale, pattern, collection of intervals, substitution - whatever - over any chord functioning in any way at any given time. And he HEARD it!

Different brains, different methods. Whatever gets you through.

Back to the OP : I never really hear any truly alt. dom. in country music.
Occasionally I'll hear some diminished or whole-tone or alt. in the instrumental and western swing/jazzier tunes of new and old. Danny Gatton, Brent Mason, Jimmy Bryant, Jimmie Rivers, some of the Bob Wills stuff, etc. Hank Garland of course employed it in his actual 'jazz' recordings. And yes, when played as a scale it sounds totally mechanical.

Think intervals instead of scales - melody as opposed to 'mechanics'.

For example: next time you have to play a G7 that resoles to Cmaj - play an Ab and a B (notes) that resolves to G and C.

**The Don Mock books mentioned above are in fact great short volumes focusing specifically on Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor and Whole-Tone/Diminished in three separate volumes.

Last edited by klasaine; January 27th, 2009 at 02:37 PM. Reason: italics abuse.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 04:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You guys kill me when you get these types of threads going. I don't understand a word of it but it sure is interesting reading. I'm truely in awe of folks who can carry on conversations about music like this, keep it up!
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Old January 27th, 2009, 04:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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another guy who's getting an advance copy of "the hell you can't play jazz"


i should be finished this summer...should be.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 05:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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melodic minor by accident

Take a chord progression like G G7 C Cmin

When going from C to Cm keep playing as you were but flatten any e note to eb.


This is C melodic minor (though you dont have to even know that, or know its modes).It gives a nice bluesy effect that wont be out of place anywhere
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Old January 28th, 2009, 02:50 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard
Too much work. Okay, here goes:

In thinking about this topic, I’ve gotten out some books, and read some more about Melodic Minor and its modes. What are the virtues of thinking of those collections of notes as modes of the Melodic Minor of some root other than the chord of the moment, as opposed to variations or alterations of more the more basic scales, Major, Dominant, and Minor?

As I understand it, outside of playing Jazz tunes writtne in melodic minor, the most common applications of those melodic minor modes are:

Using the melodic minor scale one half step above the root of a dominant chord to yield the altered dominant scale for that dominant chord, ie Eb melodic minor over a D7 chord to yield the D altered dominant scale.

But it has nothing to do with Eb melodic minor; it is just a convenient way to remember how to get all the usual alterations of the D dominant scale, assuming you already know how the play the melodic minor scale, which may be a fairly big assumption in some circles. This is, after all, the Tele forum.

Another use is the play the 4th (?) mode of the melodic minor to yield the overtone dominant scale, which is the same as the dominant/mixolydian scale, but with a #4 scale degree, ie D overtone dominant scale has G# rather than G. Seems like an awfully convoluted was to get something when you could just remember to raise the 4th scale degree a half step.

Now I’m just a country boy, and got left far behind a long way back, but Ted Greene seems to get a little respect, and he takes a chord scale approach, as he says in the introduction to Single Note Jazz Guitar Soloing:

“(I)f a book included good sounds and had some explanations or principles, it always seemed to be confusing, and to propose some very cumbersome burdens on the brain. For instance, one well-intentioned author told me that proper scale of use with an Eb7#9#5 chord is the G Lydian Augmented scale. When I read this, I asked myself, “Doesn’t this scale really have the same notes as an Eb7 scale with a few modifications?” .... One of my basic outlooks on many things for the last five or six years seems to be, “Get rid of the confusion where possible” or “What’s really going on here?”

Specifically regarding the modes of Melodic Minor, M. Greene said :

“If the sounds you have just played seem familiar, it is because you already had many of them by other names. For instant, F Melodic Minor = Bb Overtone Dominant = Dm7b5 (Type 1) .....As in similar situations before, I highly recommend that you not try to take a shortcut that will only end up costing you more time and confusion in the long run, that if you had just learned what you were supposed to in the first place. How logical does it sem to you, to be thinking Bb Overt. Dom Scale, C major scale, and B major scale, over the chord progression Fm6 G7 F#13 Fm6? This is just one example of what can happen if you follow the ‘short-cut’ methods in question here.”

So unless you are playing actual melodic minor mode tunes by Wayne Shorter or something, how is this modal approach better, or more useful, than learning the cool notes as alterations of more basic scales?

That would not excuse a diligent student from studying these modes. If you want to be a real jazz player, you need to know them to understand and play tunes by Wayne Shorter, Chick Correa and others who wrote in those modes, to certain ones are good over specific types of chords. Even if you don’t aspire to real jazz playing, having some academic understanding helps you if you want to take a show tune or something, remembering that C Melodic Minor is a good choice over Cm#7. So I'm not really agin' it.

To me, as I posted above, some of the notes sound too outside; great on the couch, bad at the American Legion Hall.
Thanks for your very well articulated thoughts, that was indeed a great read. While I don't necessarily disagree with anything that you've said, I do want to comment further, and the only way that I know to do so is to speak from my own personal experience.

The reason that I believe all (successful) approaches to harmony and theory are valid is because there are at least three different aspects to this multi-layered topic, or perhaps more to the point, toward the practical application of such. They are: hearing, visualizing, and thinking.

When I heard the #4 over a dominant chord on jazz records, I did the same thing that I did with everything else that I'd learned up to that point - I related it as an interval over a root (hearing), and because I was (am) a very visually oriented person, I found some visual reference point that I could relate to, simply so that I could grab it. What was definitely not a part of my approach at this point was any sort of cerebral process - I didn't know a mode from a commode. When I did start studying "properly" with a Berklee graduate, my instructor related all the altered tensions as individual intervals over chords, and the other thing that he absolutely made a point of (thank you, Jerry King, wherever the heck you are!) was to illustrate how so many of these sounds live within melodic minor scales, and he was 100% correct. When I started actually learning the scales (and transcribing lines from records that contained them), I noticed certain familiar sounds that I later learned to call augmented or whole tone or whatever, but I first identified them within my brain and ears as sounds that I'd heard before. Books such as Mickey Baker Jazz came later, and books and material by guys like Ted Greene came much later. And then there were instructional videos by guys like Danny Gatton, who - whether he was truly as "uninformed" as he purported to be - played, heard, and understood every bit of this stuff, regardless of how he chose to convey his information.

So when I work on this stuff with my students, I try to convey as much of the history of my personal education as is applicable, because I think it is all applicable. You can take a #11 over a dominant chord and you can see it as a major scale with a b7 and a #4/11, or as a mixolydian mode with a #4, or as a melodic minor scale up a fifth from the root of the dominant chord, or as intervals. In each case, at least from the initial onset, the natural phrasing can be radically different as depending on one's perception, understanding, and practical relationship with the intervals, and that's why I'm such a fan of looking at it (hearing it, thinking about it) from a variety of angles. It's kind of like the dorian mode - sure, you can play all the notes of a G scale and it'll work over an A dorian vamp, but the phrasing is likely to be quite different from the musician that's hearing on a more intervallic-based approach.

I haven't played an American Legion hall (or a VFW or a Moose club) in ages, but I've surely played loads of them, and to be completely honest, I think it's a bad decision to try and second guess the sophistication of the ears of patrons/laymen. What laymen will hear and not get is a note that lacks conviction. They'll jump up and down to an ear tweaker (or a cliche') that's been played like it's the only heartfelt choice, whether they know a #5 from a fifth of whiskey or not.
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