Memory, Ear...Maybe both...How do you play songs?

JKSteger · December 26th, 2008, 07:58 AM

I'm wondering how most here play songs. I pretty much play by memorization based on chord charts, but I'm working on developing my ear and I'm trying to transcribe simple "old time hymns" and folk songs...for a beginner!

Let me know how you all do it. I might pick up some tips and may want to emulate you...at least give it a try. I've only been playing again for a year and half. Don't have any dreams of playing for more than my dogs, wife, myself. I would like to jam with friends to pass a few hours on a saturday but I don't know any other players.

Jeremy

Telenator · December 26th, 2008, 08:23 AM

You have the right approach man. Fun.

Nothing will prepare you better for a lifetime of playing and sharing popular music than learning hundreds of songs as exactly as you can by listening to the recordings and sticking with the arrangements as they were recorded.

Now, before everyone jumps in saying how boring and unimaginative that is, consider this.

Knowing A LOT of songs as recorded gives you three distinct advantages.

1) You have done your due diligence and learned to play a song as intended by the author. Whether you know it or not, that has added a new "style" element to your playing arsenal. And the more songs you learn, the easier it becomes to learn.

2) Knowing a butt load of songs as recorded means that you can pull out your guitar anywhere in the world and people can participate. Whether they want to sing along, jam, of invite you to sit in at a gig, there are no surprises, trainwrecks or fumbling around.

3) Having played the songs alot, as recorded, makes it much easier for you to stray from the original version and then land on your feet again because, "you really know the song."

So, what I'm saying is, learn songs thoroughly, completely and always complete the original arrangement before moving on to variations of it. It's a great big world out there and you are far more likely to run across 1000's of people who know the original version as opposed to some hybrid rendition you and your buddies worked out. So much of music is about meeting on common ground. Once you're all on the same page, use your skills to take it somewhere else! And have fun!!!

bingy · December 26th, 2008, 09:35 AM

What has helped me more than anything is studying Jazz harmony.

Understanding harmonic motion gives you the key to all of popular music.

I started playing folk songs when was about 13...moved to rock...got into bands at about 17...played semi-pro till about 22 when I figured it was about time that I studied.

Began reading every book I could find about modern harmony (mostly jazz guitar books).

Now when learning tunes I can recognize standard chord sequences as I am hearing them. ll V l ... III VI II V... I IV V ...etc.

This makes learning particular tunes very much easier.

S. Rock · December 26th, 2008, 09:49 AM

what I've done over the years, is to buy song books with the songs of my prefered artist. my wife loves to go to "thrift" stores. so, I ask her and my daughter to look for any "older" song books that may be there. most of the time the chords are in the song book. so, check in some of your local music/guitar stores. hint : the older ones are cheaper.

Doug Ferguson · December 26th, 2008, 09:53 AM

Both, mainly ear. Sometimes tabs and chord charts to get going.

gaddis · December 26th, 2008, 08:02 PM

These days I play mostly by ear. For most rock, pop, folk, etc., i.e. songs that do not have super complex chord structures, I can almost always just jump in and play along. Being able to do that sure gives your memory a break. How did I get to that point? Well, it was a long voyage, but I am self-taught and started figuring out tunes pretty early on in my development. It was just something I did, poorly at first then got better at it over time. I also picked up a lot of theory in my early days. That can be a big help sometimes. There was a period in my life, before I was married, when I would come home from work and bang away on my guitar to work out my frustrations. I would turn on my favorite radio station and just play along with whatever song came on. I'd do this for probably an hour, maybe two or three times a week. I think it was in this period of time that my ear as well as my playing developed the most.

JKSteger · December 26th, 2008, 10:05 PM

Hey everyone, thanks a million for all your input. It's so great to have great players and the experienced pass down tips, suggestions, etc to us beginner players who have a long way to go.

One thing I really like about this forum is that you guys really know how to play, not just a bunch of power chords like the members on other forums. I'm not really a country or jazz fan but I'm learning a lot from both and have come to have a big appreciation for all styles of music.

I'm still trying to learn as many songs as I can. I think I'm doing about 2 or 3 per week. Mind you it's mainly the rhythm section. It may be a while before I take on any lead playing but I'm learning and having fun at the same time.

Thanks,
Jeremy

charlie chitlin · December 26th, 2008, 11:38 PM

If you lern to play by memorization, eventually you'll learn to hear the changes...especially if you really pay attention to what it sounds like to go, for instance, from the I to the V.
For me, it's a combination of ear, memorization, and even remembering physical patterns.
For instance, I play a lot of Blues, and I do a I,VI, II, V change by using 3 different chord shapes in 2 positions, 2 frets apart.
It seems to be more of a muscle memory thing than anything else, in that case.
I've recently joined a very different kind of band than I'm used to, and the leader is a very sophisticated musician, and a keyboard player (as in, "those dudes play a lot of chords!"). The reason I'm in the band is because he had the idea that he wanted the guitar to be Bluesey, but now I'm a Blues guy playing songs that have 6 chords, 3 sections and lots of FBs (fiddly bits). So, I usually start with memory of chord names and physical positions, and I can play the songs that way, but I never feel like I really own the tune completely until I really hear the changes...then I can comfortably add fills, transitions, different chord shapes, etc.
All I can tell you is, each chord change (or interval) has its own gesture, or personality, and if you listen for it, you'll eventually be able to recognize it.
Try going from C to F a few times, then from A to D and see if you begin to hear not the chords themselves, but the interval between the chords...the way thay interact with each other. Because it's the same interval.
This will really help you to be able to learn songs by ear.
It's pretty seat-of-the-pants for me, but I suppose I could have saved a lot of time and effort if I'd had some actual ear training.

Lerb21 · December 27th, 2008, 12:14 AM

I rarely practice, improvise most of it.

I can do something along the lines the hearing a guitar riff, and then playing it back note for note. That, and I can make a sandwich myself!!!!

So you could say ear I suppose

ut4ever8 · December 28th, 2008, 11:03 PM

I play by ear probably 99% of the time now. I started off reading tabs and very early in my playing I realized that tabs weren't always very accurate, so I would look at a tab and get a general idea of the song and basically fool around with it until I got it to a point that I think sounds best. At first, this would take a while to get everything figured out and as time passed I was able to figure songs out quicker and quicker and eventually I just reached a point where I didn't even need to reference a tab as a starting point. I agree very much with Telenator's post about learning as many songs as possible. I would suggest learning songs that you have known very well before you even played guitar, songs you knew front to back as a listener. Songs like that are already so engraved in your memory that once you learn the chords, you can sort of sit back and hear the song in your head just as you always have, but then you can put the pieces together and then your ear for the music will develop faster and faster.
Does that make sense? I've always found this sort of thing a bit harder to explain.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think this is pretty common in players who learned by ear, but I feel like the honest answer here is I don't really know how I learned to hear and analyze music in my head, it just sort of happened. I did my best to explain the steps I took in learning. Ultimately I always end up feeling like someone is asking me how to do something and I end up saying "well, you just do it" which is obviously not a very informative answer.

bigdaddyweed · December 28th, 2008, 11:28 PM

All of the suggestions I've read here are great. I've always played by ear, and by memorization. What helps me the most, is, after playing with the recording, and becoming familiar with the song, and how it's put together, I type out the words, and put the chords in their proper places. (Before I had a computer I wrote them out by hand) Somehow, this works wonders for me as far as memorization. Here's an example:

Poke Salad Annie

If some of you all ain’t never been down south too much, I’m gonna tell you a little bit about this, so that you’ll understand what I’m talkin’ ‘bout…….Down there we have a plant that grows out in the woods. And in the field, looks somethin’ like a turnip green, and ever’body calls it poke salad…poke salad.
Used to know a girl lived down there, and she’d go out in the evenings and pick her a mess of it, carry it home and cook it for supper, cause that’s about all they had to eat, but they did all right.

E7
Down in Louisiana…Where the alligators grow so mean

There lived a girl that I swear to the world
A7 E7
Made the alligators look tame Poke salad Annie…Polk salad Annie
G A G A …E
Ever’body said it was a shame…’Cause her mama was a workin’ on the chain gang
…a mean vicious woman…

E7
Every day ‘for suppertime…She’d go down by the truck patch

And pick her a mess of poke salad…And carry it home in a tote sack
A E7
Poke salad Annie…Gators got your grannie…chomp chomp, chomp chomp chomp
G A G A …E
Ever’body said it was a shame…’Cause her mama was a workin’ on the chain gang
…a wretched spiteful straight razor totin’ woman…Lord have mercy, pick me a mess of it

E7
Here daddy was lazy and no account…Claimed he had a bad back

And All her brothers were fit for…Was stealin’ watermelons outta my truck patch
A E7
Poke salad Annie…The gators got your grannie
G A G A …E
Ever’body said it was a shame…’Cause her mama was a workin’ on the chain gang

…sock a little poke salad to me…you know I need a mess of it…

....Then, after I use this print out a few times, I pretty well know the song, and, I always have it saved on computer for future reference, if needed.

Later...........weedman

bender-freak · December 28th, 2008, 11:36 PM

i am a "by ear" player almost totally since i only barely read music well enough to be dangerous to myself and an annoyance to someone that CAN READ.....

my approach to learning a new song is to listen carefully to it until i "think" i hear the chord changes...then....once i "think" i have them right, i do a search and compare different chord charts and compile one of my own that i feel sounds the closest to the actual song...THEN..i start trying to figger out the melody lines/notes....sometimes i get it right myself without doing the search and sometimes not...

there is a knack for knowing how to "listen to a song" when learning a particular song...

it has been the ONLY way i have been able to put together a pretty good list of Chet Atkins/Merle Travis style tunes and make them "use-able"..

i also try to hang around and play/jam with guys that are doing the stuff i wanna do and do it better than i can and ask questions...

mainly by ear for me..

Thorpey · January 9th, 2009, 05:23 AM

yeah maybe tab for a starting point!!!... as i am still early on in my playing!!! just to get an idea of the area to work from as well as key perhaps!!!

however i tend to remember songs reasonably well... but on the advice of our very own bcbeak i have started compiling a folder of tabs (both chord charts and leads) in order of artist etc...

works for me

Be cool

James

porkadon · January 9th, 2009, 05:52 AM

I also play "by ear." I play mostly Blues, which is all about feeling. I tend to play with my eyes closed, especially when soloing and singing. I learned playing along with the radio and Beatles records in the beginning, and only had a few lessons during the first year or so. After 45 years, I have more technical knowledge, but still rely on feeling. I can sort of read chord charts, but tab and note reading I just never took the time to learn, to my regret sometimes. Develop your ear, but learn everything ANY WAY you can to get the results you want. It's all about you liking what comes out in the end. PRACTICE, but also try to play with others when you get the chance.

December 26th, 2008, 07:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
JKSteger Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Griffin, GA Age: 34 Posts: 142	Memory, Ear...Maybe both...How do you play songs? I'm wondering how most here play songs. I pretty much play by memorization based on chord charts, but I'm working on developing my ear and I'm trying to transcribe simple "old time hymns" and folk songs...for a beginner! Let me know how you all do it. I might pick up some tips and may want to emulate you...at least give it a try. I've only been playing again for a year and half. Don't have any dreams of playing for more than my dogs, wife, myself. I would like to jam with friends to pass a few hours on a saturday but I don't know any other players. Jeremy

December 26th, 2008, 08:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
Telenator VENDOR Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 5,812	You have the right approach man. Fun. Nothing will prepare you better for a lifetime of playing and sharing popular music than learning hundreds of songs as exactly as you can by listening to the recordings and sticking with the arrangements as they were recorded. Now, before everyone jumps in saying how boring and unimaginative that is, consider this. Knowing A LOT of songs as recorded gives you three distinct advantages. 1) You have done your due diligence and learned to play a song as intended by the author. Whether you know it or not, that has added a new "style" element to your playing arsenal. And the more songs you learn, the easier it becomes to learn. 2) Knowing a butt load of songs as recorded means that you can pull out your guitar anywhere in the world and people can participate. Whether they want to sing along, jam, of invite you to sit in at a gig, there are no surprises, trainwrecks or fumbling around. 3) Having played the songs alot, as recorded, makes it much easier for you to stray from the original version and then land on your feet again because, "you really know the song." So, what I'm saying is, learn songs thoroughly, completely and always complete the original arrangement before moving on to variations of it. It's a great big world out there and you are far more likely to run across 1000's of people who know the original version as opposed to some hybrid rendition you and your buddies worked out. So much of music is about meeting on common ground. Once you're all on the same page, use your skills to take it somewhere else! And have fun!!! __________________ Dogs have the right idea! www.telenator.com

December 26th, 2008, 09:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
bingy Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Champlain Valley,Vermont, USA Posts: 521	Memory, Ear and Knowledge What has helped me more than anything is studying Jazz harmony. Understanding harmonic motion gives you the key to all of popular music. I started playing folk songs when was about 13...moved to rock...got into bands at about 17...played semi-pro till about 22 when I figured it was about time that I studied. Began reading every book I could find about modern harmony (mostly jazz guitar books). Now when learning tunes I can recognize standard chord sequences as I am hearing them. ll V l ... III VI II V... I IV V ...etc. This makes learning particular tunes very much easier.

December 26th, 2008, 09:53 AM	#5 (permalink)
Doug Ferguson Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Age: 56 Posts: 2,215	Both, mainly ear. Sometimes tabs and chord charts to get going. __________________ "If I don't like the way the times are moving I shall refuse to accompany them." -Horace Rumpole

December 26th, 2008, 11:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
charlie chitlin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bucktown, Pa Age: 47 Posts: 3,244	If you lern to play by memorization, eventually you'll learn to hear the changes...especially if you really pay attention to what it sounds like to go, for instance, from the I to the V. For me, it's a combination of ear, memorization, and even remembering physical patterns. For instance, I play a lot of Blues, and I do a I,VI, II, V change by using 3 different chord shapes in 2 positions, 2 frets apart. It seems to be more of a muscle memory thing than anything else, in that case. I've recently joined a very different kind of band than I'm used to, and the leader is a very sophisticated musician, and a keyboard player (as in, "those dudes play a lot of chords!"). The reason I'm in the band is because he had the idea that he wanted the guitar to be Bluesey, but now I'm a Blues guy playing songs that have 6 chords, 3 sections and lots of FBs (fiddly bits). So, I usually start with memory of chord names and physical positions, and I can play the songs that way, but I never feel like I really own the tune completely until I really hear the changes...then I can comfortably add fills, transitions, different chord shapes, etc. All I can tell you is, each chord change (or interval) has its own gesture, or personality, and if you listen for it, you'll eventually be able to recognize it. Try going from C to F a few times, then from A to D and see if you begin to hear not the chords themselves, but the interval between the chords...the way thay interact with each other. Because it's the same interval. This will really help you to be able to learn songs by ear. It's pretty seat-of-the-pants for me, but I suppose I could have saved a lot of time and effort if I'd had some actual ear training. __________________ Dig yo'self http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...6-bf3537901a07

December 26th, 2008, 09:49 AM	#4 (permalink)
S. Rock TDPRI Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Minnesota Age: 57 Posts: 10	what I've done over the years, is to buy song books with the songs of my prefered artist. my wife loves to go to "thrift" stores. so, I ask her and my daughter to look for any "older" song books that may be there. most of the time the chords are in the song book. so, check in some of your local music/guitar stores. hint : the older ones are cheaper.

December 26th, 2008, 08:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
gaddis Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New York Age: 53 Posts: 430	These days I play mostly by ear. For most rock, pop, folk, etc., i.e. songs that do not have super complex chord structures, I can almost always just jump in and play along. Being able to do that sure gives your memory a break. How did I get to that point? Well, it was a long voyage, but I am self-taught and started figuring out tunes pretty early on in my development. It was just something I did, poorly at first then got better at it over time. I also picked up a lot of theory in my early days. That can be a big help sometimes. There was a period in my life, before I was married, when I would come home from work and bang away on my guitar to work out my frustrations. I would turn on my favorite radio station and just play along with whatever song came on. I'd do this for probably an hour, maybe two or three times a week. I think it was in this period of time that my ear as well as my playing developed the most.

December 26th, 2008, 10:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
JKSteger Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Griffin, GA Age: 34 Posts: 142	Hey everyone, thanks a million for all your input. It's so great to have great players and the experienced pass down tips, suggestions, etc to us beginner players who have a long way to go. One thing I really like about this forum is that you guys really know how to play, not just a bunch of power chords like the members on other forums. I'm not really a country or jazz fan but I'm learning a lot from both and have come to have a big appreciation for all styles of music. I'm still trying to learn as many songs as I can. I think I'm doing about 2 or 3 per week. Mind you it's mainly the rhythm section. It may be a while before I take on any lead playing but I'm learning and having fun at the same time. Thanks, Jeremy

December 27th, 2008, 12:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
Lerb21 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Florence, PA Age: 17 Posts: 2,355	I rarely practice, improvise most of it. I can do something along the lines the hearing a guitar riff, and then playing it back note for note. That, and I can make a sandwich myself!!!! So you could say ear I suppose __________________ "Is it okay not to like [insert favorite artist]...at all?" Old Avatar ---->

December 28th, 2008, 11:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
ut4ever8 TDPRI Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cincinnati Ohio Age: 23 Posts: 50	I play by ear probably 99% of the time now. I started off reading tabs and very early in my playing I realized that tabs weren't always very accurate, so I would look at a tab and get a general idea of the song and basically fool around with it until I got it to a point that I think sounds best. At first, this would take a while to get everything figured out and as time passed I was able to figure songs out quicker and quicker and eventually I just reached a point where I didn't even need to reference a tab as a starting point. I agree very much with Telenator's post about learning as many songs as possible. I would suggest learning songs that you have known very well before you even played guitar, songs you knew front to back as a listener. Songs like that are already so engraved in your memory that once you learn the chords, you can sort of sit back and hear the song in your head just as you always have, but then you can put the pieces together and then your ear for the music will develop faster and faster. Does that make sense? I've always found this sort of thing a bit harder to explain. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think this is pretty common in players who learned by ear, but I feel like the honest answer here is I don't really know how I learned to hear and analyze music in my head, it just sort of happened. I did my best to explain the steps I took in learning. Ultimately I always end up feeling like someone is asking me how to do something and I end up saying "well, you just do it" which is obviously not a very informative answer.

December 28th, 2008, 11:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
bigdaddyweed TDPRI Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 49	All of the suggestions I've read here are great. I've always played by ear, and by memorization. What helps me the most, is, after playing with the recording, and becoming familiar with the song, and how it's put together, I type out the words, and put the chords in their proper places. (Before I had a computer I wrote them out by hand) Somehow, this works wonders for me as far as memorization. Here's an example: Poke Salad Annie If some of you all ain’t never been down south too much, I’m gonna tell you a little bit about this, so that you’ll understand what I’m talkin’ ‘bout…….Down there we have a plant that grows out in the woods. And in the field, looks somethin’ like a turnip green, and ever’body calls it poke salad…poke salad. Used to know a girl lived down there, and she’d go out in the evenings and pick her a mess of it, carry it home and cook it for supper, cause that’s about all they had to eat, but they did all right. E7 Down in Louisiana…Where the alligators grow so mean There lived a girl that I swear to the world A7 E7 Made the alligators look tame Poke salad Annie…Polk salad Annie G A G A …E Ever’body said it was a shame…’Cause her mama was a workin’ on the chain gang …a mean vicious woman… E7 Every day ‘for suppertime…She’d go down by the truck patch And pick her a mess of poke salad…And carry it home in a tote sack A E7 Poke salad Annie…Gators got your grannie…chomp chomp, chomp chomp chomp G A G A …E Ever’body said it was a shame…’Cause her mama was a workin’ on the chain gang …a wretched spiteful straight razor totin’ woman…Lord have mercy, pick me a mess of it E7 Here daddy was lazy and no account…Claimed he had a bad back And All her brothers were fit for…Was stealin’ watermelons outta my truck patch A E7 Poke salad Annie…The gators got your grannie G A G A …E Ever’body said it was a shame…’Cause her mama was a workin’ on the chain gang …sock a little poke salad to me…you know I need a mess of it… ....Then, after I use this print out a few times, I pretty well know the song, and, I always have it saved on computer for future reference, if needed. Later...........weedman __________________ Good mornin' America , how are ya.....

December 28th, 2008, 11:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
bender-freak Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: springfield, missouri Posts: 1,640	i am a "by ear" player almost totally since i only barely read music well enough to be dangerous to myself and an annoyance to someone that CAN READ..... my approach to learning a new song is to listen carefully to it until i "think" i hear the chord changes...then....once i "think" i have them right, i do a search and compare different chord charts and compile one of my own that i feel sounds the closest to the actual song...THEN..i start trying to figger out the melody lines/notes....sometimes i get it right myself without doing the search and sometimes not... there is a knack for knowing how to "listen to a song" when learning a particular song... it has been the ONLY way i have been able to put together a pretty good list of Chet Atkins/Merle Travis style tunes and make them "use-able".. i also try to hang around and play/jam with guys that are doing the stuff i wanna do and do it better than i can and ask questions... mainly by ear for me.. __________________ bender-freak

January 9th, 2009, 05:23 AM	#13 (permalink)
Thorpey Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Manchester Age: 19 Posts: 102	yeah maybe tab for a starting point!!!... as i am still early on in my playing!!! just to get an idea of the area to work from as well as key perhaps!!! however i tend to remember songs reasonably well... but on the advice of our very own bcbeak i have started compiling a folder of tabs (both chord charts and leads) in order of artist etc... works for me Be cool James

January 9th, 2009, 05:52 AM	#14 (permalink)
porkadon Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Willimantic, CT U.S.A. Age: 55 Posts: 215	I also play "by ear." I play mostly Blues, which is all about feeling. I tend to play with my eyes closed, especially when soloing and singing. I learned playing along with the radio and Beatles records in the beginning, and only had a few lessons during the first year or so. After 45 years, I have more technical knowledge, but still rely on feeling. I can sort of read chord charts, but tab and note reading I just never took the time to learn, to my regret sometimes. Develop your ear, but learn everything ANY WAY you can to get the results you want. It's all about you liking what comes out in the end. PRACTICE, but also try to play with others when you get the chance.