A stupid chord theory question here...

[psychotelepathic]

I know modes, circle of fifths, and a few other tricks. Sometimes the simplest nuances give me trouble. I was doing a progression G-F-C-G, all major chords. If my tonic is G, why does the F major "work" in the key of G? I was just pondering this, given I have played this progression so many times--as in the Eagles (Already Gone). Thx

[FirstBassman]

As you know, the Major Scale has a semi-tone between the last note (seventh) and the tonic. So, in the Key of G, the last note is F#.

What you are referring to and hearing is a scale with a lowered seventh (a full tone away from the tonic) which is called the Mixolydian scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixolydian

Yes, it sounds great. That’s probably why about ten million rock songs (and about 90% of Grateful Dead songs) use Mixolydian.

[psychotelepathic]

Thx, so does that mean I'm not really in the key of G when playing that?

[Leon Grizzard]

It's just a mixolydain progression, I VII IV I, so yes, you are really in mixolydian rather than major, but it's just one note difference, - in the case of G as tonic, G major has F# and G mixo has F natural. Play the melody and see which, if either, it uses. A lot of tunes mix in that "modal" move and also use the major scale I V7 I.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by psychotelepathic

Thx, so does that mean I'm not really in the key of G when playing that?

You're in the key of G Mixolydian rather than G Maj.

[Valvey]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

You're in the key of G Mixolydian rather than G Maj.

You could put it another way by saying you are really in the key of C.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Valvey

You could put it another way by saying you are really in the key of C.

I know what you're saying but I think technically if the tonality is centered around G it would be more accurate to call it G Mixo. In other words your ear would hear the song as organized around a G tonality rather than some sort of C.

Likewise if a song is centered around an Am (Natural Minor) tonality we don't say it's in the key of C even though all the chords can be found in CMaj. Our ear hears the key as a minor tonality and it would be misleading to name the key as if it were a major tonality.
Same thing with the G Mixo example. G Mixo just doesn't sound like the key of C Maj.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Valvey

You could put it another way by saying you are really in the key of C.

Yup,

This is where knowing how to read music makes things a lot easier.

G Mixolydian is a modes of C Major- it has no sharps or flats.
If you were in G Major you would have one sharp, F♯ which would be on the staff for you to observe when learning the music.

Technically one cannot play in 'the key of a mode'- ie G Mixolydian although you can certainly think of the G Mixolydian mode when playing over those chords.
It is best to relate it back to the key (and scale) C Major.

[wangdangdoodle]

Goes to show... a lot of people are wrong when they think the first chord of the song is the key.

[JayFreddy]

I'm with Octatonic. The tonality of the entire progression is C major. It's perfectly fine to think of that as G Mixo, F Lydian, etc., but the overall tonality as it relates to the key siggie is C.

The key of A minor is different. The V chord, E7, has a G# note. So even though Am is based on a mode in the key of C and shares a key signature with C, it's not C, it's Am.

This is the same debate that crops up every now and then about Sweet Home Alabama, i.e., DCG... Is it in D or G? Technically it's in G major, but Ed King, who wrote the song, is on record saying he plays it in the key of D.

In the context of Mr. King's comments, it makes sense to think of Sweet Home Alabama as being in D mixo, though technically that would make it in G major.

Goes to show you don't need to be technical to write a great song.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

I know what you're saying but I think technically if the tonality is centered around G it would be more accurate to call it G Mixo. In other words your ear would hear the song as organized around a G tonality rather than some sort of C.

Me too. If you posit G as the tonic, then it is mixo.

[Larry F]

If G is heard as the tonic, then they key will have to reflect that. That is one of the primary criteria for determining key. However, you would want to make sure that it is feasible to strike the G chord and hold it at the end of the song. Many of these kinds of songs, it seems to me, use fade out endings. That makes it harder to determine what the tonic note is. When I hear a song like this move to a G chord, I do not hear it resolving; instead, I just hear the cycle of chords restarting. That is very than resolving. Of course, the F chord is not a particularly strong way to resolve on G, since it is the F# that is critical in that.

Another way to look at it is called mode mixture. This is very common in classical music. This occurs when a major key incorporates harmonies from it parallel minor. The parallel minor of G major is G minor. The F major chord is the sub-tonic or bVII of G minor.

My vote, then is to call F an example of mode mixture. This is a well-established practice going back to the Baroque period. The key, then, is G major.

The question of Ed King is interesting. Just because he is the composer doesn't mean that he gets to name the key. However, if he HEARS the D as the tonic, then that is valid. Theory is a way of formalizing and expressing how we hear things.

I am conflicted about mixolydian here. The iii chord is a B diminished. If that chord is used in the song, along with F major, then I would vote for calling it mixo. However, since I don't remember hearing this, then I can't say that this is a textbook example of mixo. For those who would like to say that this song is in mixo, try playing a B diminished chord and see if it sounds like it would fit into the song, say, for example, if the composer wrote another phrase using it. Is that a reasonable, logical chord to use in a new phrase? If so, then you are hearing the song in mixo. If not, then you have to consider your options, depending on what you hear for the chord based on scale degree 3. It would either be: Bb, Bb+, B dim, or B minor.

I know this reads as technical, but I am writing about what I hear. If we were sitting around together, it would be much easier to convey these thoughts with a guitar.

[FirstBassman]

Put me in the G mixo camp.
If the song starts at G, ends in G, the soloing is around G, to me it's G mixo.

As I said before, there are a million rock songs that go from I to VII - Gloria, Can't Explain, Cocaine, and on and on . . . .

[jazztele]

i'm with first bassman and the others who say mixo.

the key sig. should reflect no sharps or flats, so it'll look like C, but if we're treating G as the tonic, we're getting at mixolydian...

like "sweet home alabama." that song is in "D Mixolydian" to me.

oh, and jayfreddy, if we're viewing the V7 in a minor key as such (ex: E7 in Am) we're really getting at melodic minor harmony. technically, even though the V7 will often be played, that chord is not part of straight up minor scale harmony--which simply refers back to it's relative major...(so in other words, i see what you're saying, i just don't want to confuse the OP)

[JayFreddy]

I think we're all saying the same thing, but using different words to say it. I'm not disagreeing with anyone who says it's G Mixo, I'm just saying that G Mixo is diatonic to C.

If those chords (GFCG) were written down on paper with a melody, would the key sig have a sharp or not?

If it's in G, the F would be sharped, and then you'd use natural indicators for the F natural. If it has no sharp, it's in C, even if the first and last chords are G.

At least in my world, the choice of which key sig to use has more to do with which is easier to read than any "carved-in-stone" music theory rules. Of course, my world has lots of other things wrong with it too... lol

Originally Posted by jazztele

oh, and jayfreddy, if we're viewing the V7 in a minor key as such (ex: E7 in Am) we're really getting at melodic minor harmony. technically, even though the V7 will often be played, that chord is not part of straight up minor scale harmony--which simply refers back to it's relative major...(so in other words, i see what you're saying, i just don't want to confuse the OP)

Appreciate that, I respect your opinion.

The dominant V7 has been an integral part of minor harmony in Western music for 250 years or so, give or a take a few decades. If I see a tune with no sharps or flats in the key sig and lots of A notes, I'll look for the G# accidental. To me, the G# confirms that it's in A minor. If there's no G#, I'd be more inclined to call it C, but of course, it could still be modal...

Which, of course, brings us back to the original question!

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

The key of A minor is different. The V chord, E7, has a G# note. So even though Am is based on a mode in the key of C and shares a key signature with C, it's not C, it's Am
.

That's why I specifically said.....

if a song is centered around an Am (Natural Minor) tonality.......

in order to distinguish that the V chord would not be a dominant 7th which of course would no longer come from the key of C Maj.

Interesting what LarryF has to say. I was hoping he would respond because I know there's always more than one way to skin a cat and he would be the fella to know.

[Larry F]

A question for the mixo camp: how do you hear the iii chord? If you were to write a phrase that used that chord, would it be B dim, B minor, Bb major, or Bb augmented? Of these chords, which fits in best with the chords used in the song?

[JayFreddy]

BTW, The V doesn't have to be a dominant 7 to have the leading tone, sorry if I was unclear about that.

Larry, In the context of GFCG, I hear the three chord as Bm.

How would you write GFCG down on paper? What key sig would you use?

I'm thinking I'd probably use an F#, i.e., key of G major...

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

I think we're all saying the same thing, but using different words to say it. I'm not disagreeing with anyone who says it's G Mixo, I'm just saying that G Mixo is diatonic to C.

If those chords (GFCG) were written down on paper with a melody, would the key sig have a sharp or not?

If it's in G, the F would be sharped, and then you'd use natural indicators for the F natural. If it has no sharp, it's in C, even if the first and last chords are G.

At least in my world, the choice of which key sig to use has more to do with which is easier to read than any "carved-in-stone" music theory rules. Of course, my world has lots of other things wrong with it too... lol

Appreciate that, I respect your opinion.

The dominant V7 has been an integral part of minor harmony in Western music for 250 years or so, give or a take a few decades. If I see a tune with no sharps or flats in the key sig and lots of A notes, I'll look for the G# accidental. To me, the G# confirms that it's in A minor. If there's no G#, I'd be more inclined to call it C, but of course, it could still be modal...

Which, of course, brings us back to the original question!

I actually don't think we're all saying the same thing.

It seems to me you're response above is missing one important aspect to this which (to me at least) is the most crucial aspect and that is "how does the ear hear it"?

For example if you read LarryF's post again you will see that how the ear hears the music is entirely what he is basing his various perspectives on. In the case of your post you're entirely talking about analyzing #'s and b's which is the realm of written music.
The ear simply hears notes, not sharps or flats. You're analysis it seems to me is based solely on a written representation of music. Again in my opinion this is not the best way to determine tonality. It boils down to how the ear hears things.

[jazztele]

Originally Posted by Larry F

A question for the mixo camp: how do you hear the iii chord? If you were to write a phrase that used that chord, would it be B dim, B minor, Bb major, or Bb augmented? Of these chords, which fits in best with the chords used in the song?

half diminished fits with my harmonization-- but this sounds like a rock type progression, and the half diminished really doesn't fit. Bb major sounds like it would work in the context of this tune, which seems to lend itself to a blues idea...minor third over major chord...

anyway, G mixo/ C major, call it what you want, it just ain't G major IMHO. but i think we might be getting dangerously close to over-analyzing a three chord rock tune. of course, it's fun.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

...the most crucial aspect and that is "how does the ear hear it"?

Agreed. Never meant to imply otherwise, though I can see how my poor choice of wording might come across that way.

The ear simply hears notes. Those notes have names, and sometimes those names contain sharps or flats. Even if someone doesn't know the names of the notes, the notes still have names.

So boiling things down to how the ear hears things, how would you answer Larry's question? Specifically, how do you hear the three chord? And if you were to write a tune using the GFCG progression, what key siggie would you use for the melody?

I'm hearing Bm at the three chord, and would probably use a G major key sig, respectively.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

Agreed. Never meant to imply otherwise, though I can see how my poor choice of wording might come across that way.

The ear simply hears notes. Those notes have names, and sometimes those names contain sharps or flats. Even if someone doesn't know the names of the notes, the notes still have names.

So boiling things down to how the ear hears things, how would you answer Larry's question? Specifically, how do you hear the three chord? And if you were to write a tune using the GFCG progression, what key siggie would you use for the melody?

I'm hearing Bm at the three chord, and would probably use a G major key sig, respectively.

This is interesting. I have to say my ear leans more toward the diminished sound because I'm hearing it as part of an alt G dom sound I think. Perhaps my ear is a little biased at the moment because I've been listening to alot of Charlie Christian and jump blues stuff lately.

If I'd been listening to the Eagles for the last couple weeks I may have wanted to hear the Bm.

It's an interesting and unsettling chord progression isn't it. When you get to the C it doesn't totally have a sense of resolution to me as I would think it would if you just look at key theory. Why is that? Somehow my brain knows that's not where the song wants to revolve around tonally.

So if you've heard Bm as the most compelling iii chord and you've chosen G maj as the key how do you account for the F? Is it as LarryF has suggested, an example of mode mixture. You see to my ear I don't hear modes being mixed in the example. It sounds much more homogenous (couldn't think of a better word) or seamless than that.