Tempo Range?

[JayFreddy]

Everyone's ears are different. Some people hear lows better than highs, some people hear the highs better than the lows. Typically, as our ears age, we lose sensitivity to the highs first.

I have a theory... Just as each person has their own their own personal pitch range, that being the highest and lowest notes you can audibly hear, I suspect we have a personal tempo range too. I.e., the slowest and fastest tempos where you can hear a tempo and still feel the groove.

Just as sounds played below or above your pitch range are inaudible, if music is played slower or faster than your tempo range, it stops being recognizable as music. That would help explain why many people don't care for fast guitarists... Beyond a certain speed, and everything sounds like "Flight of the Bumblebee"...

I've found most beginning guitar student's natural tempo range is between 80 and 120 beats per minute, but a lil' time with metronome expands this pretty quickly.

Do you like fast music? If yes, how fast?

If not, what are the tempo ranges for the music you do like?

[boneyguy]

I'm of the opinion that rhythm and tempo are the most personal and unique aspects of an individuals musical expression. How someone habitually moves, speaks, gestures, breathes etc. usually indicates a prefered range of tempo and rhythmic cadence.

I think rhythm and tempo are far more ingrained and hard wired than melody preferences for instance.

I'm not sure that the ability to detect pitch equates in any way to tempo considerations.

It seems to me that the ability to detect pitch is a physiologically/biologically determined thing. I don't see tempo as having the same physiological limitations but rather tempo seems to be more about preference to me. In other words people don't choose be able to hear a particular range of pitches but people do choose a certain range of tempo over other possible tempos and rhythms. You either hear a pitch or you don't. Whereas either you prefer a tempo or you choose another that is more pleasing.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

I'm not sure that the ability to detect pitch equates in any way to tempo considerations.

I'm not sure either, it's just a hypothesis... But thanks for the reply!

You can measure your tempo range using a metronome. I originally addressed this in terms of hearing fast tempos, but it's equally true at the lower end of the tempo range too.

Start with the metronome around 100, then clap every other click. When you clap exactly on the click, you won't hear the click, only the clap. Note that you don't actually have to clap very loud, so long as you land exactly on the click.

Most non-musicians find tempos less than 80 difficult to keep in time, while the upper end of a non-musicians' tempo range is usually between 120 and 140... Seriously, if you've never tried it, check it out. I was first introduced to this concept by William Buonocore, aka "good ol' Bill", my former guitar instructor from Boston Conservatory.

What got me thinking about this again is that I have a bunch of guitar buddies who I like and respect, and many of them seem to hate fast guitar pickin'. "Too many notes...", etc.

For years, I thought that players who didn't like the fast stuff were just insecure... They didn't like it because they couldn't play that way, and that it was some kind of ego thing. I.e., "I can't do that, so it must suck..."

I'm certain that for some people, ego and insecurities play a role in how they perceive and judge other people (and their music), but I also know some very humble players who don't like fast playing either, so the ego thing doesn't hold true for everyone.

The easiest explanation is, as you said, people like what they like, and everyone has different tastes. Still, I'm wondering if there might be measurable psycho-acoustical factors involved too. The key is to identify and be able to measure those factors.

Thanks again for your reply.

[boneyguy]

I remember many years ago when I had a great friend who was a sax player. We used to play jazz standards together alot and we were both studying music at the same college. He recorded himself one time practicing along with Abersold probably and I noticed something that I never heard before when playing with him live. His musical phrasing sounded like his speech phrasing patterns. It was really obvious to me when I heard it recorded.

That was probably the beginning of my thinking and interest in the sort of ideas and questions you've raised in this thread Jay.

I know you've raised the question specifically about tempo but I tend to see tempo as included in what I think of as general 'rhythmic personality traits' and how those are translated into an individuals musical expression.

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

The easiest explanation is, as you said, people like what they like, and everyone has different tastes. Still, I'm wondering if there might be measurable psycho-acoustical factors involved too. The key is to identify and be able to measure those factors.

I wasn't meaning to imply that personal preferences don't have psycho-acoustic' factors. I think almost certainly they do. I think those facors are what the preferences are based in. So I'm not so certain that the idea of personal taste or preference is an "easy explanation" because it involves alot of factors that contribute to those preferences some of whcih will be biological I'm certain.
I was just trying to distinguish that the ability to hear pitch, it seems to me, is more a hardwired, unchangeable and physiologically based thing whereas tempo preferences are more flexible and as you point out in your OP the range preference can be extended with practice.

I find the whole area of how psychology and biology and music interface really interesting. I've read "This Is Your Brain On Music" and thought it was pretty interesting but it didn't quite get into the things that interest me the most.

[boneyguy]

Here's an interesting discussion about rhythm that relates somewhat to what I'm talking about. Again Jay I know you were specifically talking about tempo but to me tempo is a part of the whole rhythm thing.

This vid was posted in another thread on this forum and I thought it was kind of a neat coincidence that it related to what I was talking about in this thread.

[JayFreddy]

Sounds like your sax player friend was pretty good. There's a breathing exersice I like to do to develop phrasing... Ties in with that directly.

About pitch recognition being hardwired, it is, but it can also be learned and/or acquired. Just like the ability to see color is hardwired, children can recognize pitch too, but if you don't teach them and reinforce it, they lose it over time. I think the same is true for rhythms too. Think about Latin music...

I really enjoyed that Al "digada didada" Dimeola video, thanks. He was one of my heros as as teenager. While he's a great player, I don't agree with his comments about, "Asians, not so much..." If he was running for election, I'm pretty sure his campaign manager would have to resign... lol

As a teenager, I took a Flamenco lesson from some Spanish guy who used the entire hour to lecture me on how I'd never be able to play "real Flamenco rhythms" because I wasn't of the proper genetic origin. My Flamenco playing will probably never recover from that racist jerk.

That's partly why I like Jason McGuire so much. Apart from being a monster player and a nice guy, he's a white boy from the suburbs who absolutely smokes 99% of all the "real Flamenco" players out there. Many hardcore Andalusian guitarists harbor a real disdain for him, he violates too many of their preconceived prejudices about their own cultural identity.

Still, Flamenco dancers seem to like him a lot, and in Flamenco, it's ultimately the dancers who get to decide what matters...

I think music is mostly cultural. While a propensity for music is hardwired from "The Factory", you can also acquire it, just like learning a foreign language.

If you don't like a particular style of music, you will be less inclined to learn it, but if you like something, and spend the required time developing it, I don't see where genetic background has much to do with it.

I was talking about this with another guitar teacher today, one who doesn't play very fast himself, but he echoed the sentiment that "those who frown on fast playing are just jealous because they can't do it themselves..."

Maybe it really is sour grapes. I was trying to find a logical, non-ego based explanation for why such a large portion of the guitar playing public seem to dislike fast guitar players.

You know what? Screw 'em. Just as I should have ignored that Flamenco teacher as a teenager, I should probably ignore anyone who doesn't get where I'm coming from today.

Strange thing is, you don't see Al Dimeola, Yngwie, Frank Gambale, or Eric Johnson railing against Muddy Waters or Snooks Eaglin (two other personal faves) because they don't play fast enough...

Thanks again for sharing your time and insight. I have a feeling you must be a pretty good player. If you're ever in Dallas, look me up!

[boneyguy]

My friend is a good player and unfortunately I've lost track of him. The last time I spoke to him he had moved to England and was playing in some sort of theatre production that included Jack Bruce in the band!! Life is strange and sometimes in a good way.

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

About pitch recognition being hardwired, it is, but it can also be learned and/or acquired. Just like the ability to see color is hardwired, children can recognize pitch too, but if you don't teach them and reinforce it, they lose it over time. I think the same is true for rhythms too. Think about Latin music...

Just to clarify I had said 'pitch detection' not 'pitch recognition'. By detection I mean to actually be able to physiologically hear a pitch. From your original post you said....

Just as each person has their own their own personal pitch range, that being the highest and lowest notes you can audibly hear,..........

....and it's that that I was refering to as pitch detecion.

Pitch recognition is something different and presupposes pitch detection. You have to hear it first before you can identify it. So it's pitch detection that I said seemed hardwired not pitch recognition. And I agree that pitch recognition is absolutely a learnable skill.

I don't see DiMeola's comment as racist in any way. His comment was not about race but about culture. Growing up in certain cultures tends to expose a person to melodic, harmonic and rhythmic preferences within that culture. I think that's all that Al was saying. He didn't say every single Asian wouldn't be able to get that rhythmic thing he was talking about but that most probably wouldn't given the musical environment they had likely grown up in. And there would be of course many examples of these musical quirks within all cultures in the world I believe.

For example if we view specific musical styles as unique cultures I would have to say I've never heard a classically trained musician play jazz well. Or at least never as well as a devoted and accomplished jazz musician. The classical musician can never seem to leave behind the classical time feel to really get the swing thing. It always sounds somehow 'syncopated on the beat' or some weird thing to me.


So even though there may initially be cultural limitations on an indivduals musical abilities as a result of growing up in that culture I believe that there is alot of musical flexibility within the individual to learn new ways. I get what your flamenco teacher was saying but I don't like to think what he said is true. But to be honest I'm not completely sure that what he said isn't true. At least it may be true for most people but not everyone.

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

Thanks again for sharing your time and insight. I have a feeling you must be a pretty good player. If you're ever in Dallas, look me up!

It just shows how easy it is to create an internet persona. Well thanks for the vote of confidence. I"ve been at it a long time and I should be alot better than I am but I can hold my own in a few musical settings.

I'm really enjoying this conversation with you. Thanks. And if you're ever in Victoria you'll have to drop by as well.

[rhh7]

I can not speak very fast, and my preference is on the slow end of things...I find many technically proficient guitarists who play too many notes for my taste.

I think the use of space around the notes is a key part of great melody.

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

Pitch recognition is something different and presupposes pitch detection. You have to hear it first before you can identify it. So it's pitch detection that I said seemed hardwired not pitch recognition. And I agree that pitch recognition is absolutely a learnable skill.

Yup, I didn't mean to confuse the two. Lately it seems I'm confused alot...

For me, the pitch recognition thing opens up a whole other can of worms. I hear lots of famous guitarists who play out of tune all the time. Very few people seem to notice this, at least in the rock and blues idiom. For me, there are some players I just can't listen to for very long, because it hurts my ears...

Anyway, I'm willing to let Al slide because he's not running for election, but it wasn't clear to me whether he meant culture or genetics... As I said, I'll let it slide, I don't think it's important to the context of this thread.

Peace.

[boneyguy]

Yeah, I agree. I don't like hearing out of tune guitars. Or voices or whatever.

Even though I don't think Big Al was being racist I think that if he was running for office he'd cause himself some problems saying stuff like that. He should probably just stick with the guitar anyway.

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

Yup, I didn't mean to confuse the two. Lately it seems I'm confused alot...

For me, the pitch recognition thing opens up a whole other can of worms. I hear lots of famous guitarists who play out of tune all the time. Very few people seem to notice this, at least in the rock and blues idiom. For me, there are some players I just can't listen to for very long, because it hurts my ears...

Anyway, I'm willing to let Al slide because he's not running for election, but it wasn't clear to me whether he meant culture or genetics... As I said, I'll let it slide, I don't think it's important to the context of this thread.

Peace.