First use of 7+9?

[Larry F]

I first heard the 7+9 in Purple Haze. Shortly thereafter, I encountered it in jazz band arrangements of the late 60s - early 70s. Can anyone pinpoint earlier uses? I wouldn't be surprised if be-boppers used it, but I don't have hard evidence of that. Those chords go by so fast.

[Telehackster]

Miles Davis, "All Blues"?

[mr tom]

Bill Doggett, "Hold It"

[bobthecanadian]

For a minute there I thought you were going to teach us about an alternate way of playing four time (bar 1 = 7/8 bar 2 = 9/8).

[jazzbender]

I think Hendrix heard Kenny Burrell and/or Wes use it.

[klasaine]

The "stock" jazz intro to 'All the Things You Are' is Db7#9 to C7#9 (two bars each with a rhythmic figure). I don't think Kern and Hammerstein wrote it that way in '39, but Parker and Dizzy codified the now standard arrangement utilizing that intro. That was mid 40's(?).

There's gotta be some late 19th century English string music that utilizes a 7#9 or something in Debussy's 'Nocturnes'. I can't imagine Stravinsky NOT using that color for a chord.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by klasaine

There's gotta be some late 19th century English string music that utilizes a 7#9 or something in Debussy's 'Nocturnes'. I can't imagine Stravinsky NOT using that color for a chord.

That's exactly what I was thinking.
Perhaps though the 7#9 was never used as a sustained, underlying harmony in the past. It may have been more of a passing note #9 over a Dom 7 harmony. I'm sure that must have been used many times.

[DavyA]

Kenny Burell's Chitlins con carne

[jackleg]

that chord when played on any instrument other than guitar just doesnt sound the same.... probably have hear it thousands of times but didnt recognize it..... played on guitar, can identify every time....

[Larry F]

Funny you should mention. Yesterday, I played a Bb7 barre on the 6th fret and flattened my 4th finger to hit the Db on the first string. Pretty anemic compared to the Purple Haze voicing.

Here's one for the oldsters. In the late 60s, there was a discernible us against them, hip vs square, young vs old old, long hair vs short hair war going on. When I would play guitar in certain situations, I remember lobbing the 7#9 in there as a flip of the bird gesture to the authority figures in attendance. I also used it to excite girls, or so I intended. Sound familiar, anyone?

[Chuck 909]

I first heard it on the soundtrack to I DREAM OF JEANIE TV show in 1965/66? So maybe it was Tommy Tedesco? I was 6 years old and getting interested in guitars (my Dad played acoustic) and I heard that weird chord for the first time. It really perked up my ears. I always thought maybe Jimmy Hendrix got it from there since I've read he dug watching Batman and the Green Hornet, not much of a stretch

[daves561]

Originally Posted by klasaine

There's gotta be some late 19th century English string music that utilizes a 7#9 or something in Debussy's 'Nocturnes'. I can't imagine Stravinsky NOT using that color for a chord.

I had a 'duh' moment in the car this morning. I put on Ravel's Piano Concerto in G and it's all over the place, voiced frequently like this:

--5---------
------------
--3---------
------------
--4---------
--2---------

It's intended to be very jazzy, borrowing plenty of spirit from Rhapsody in Blue. The principal theme is a minor phrase over its parallel major, giving rise to the #9 sound.

So that puts the #9 at 1930 or whereabouts. What I'm wondering is: is the #9 chord a classical composer's attempt at incorporating the b3/3 swoop that defines blues and jazz? It's a fittingly "square" way of illustrating the duality. And what a strange trail if that were the case: classical adopts the b3 into its dialect, only to have it borrowed back by jazzers and rockers later. Just a conjecture.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by daves561

I had a 'duh' moment in the car this morning. I put on Ravel's Piano Concerto in G and it's all over the place, voiced frequently like this:

--5---------
------------
--3---------
------------
--4---------
--2---------

It's intended to be very jazzy, borrowing plenty of spirit from Rhapsody in Blue. The principal theme is a minor phrase over its parallel major, giving rise to the #9 sound.

So that puts the #9 at 1930 or whereabouts. What I'm wondering is: is the #9 chord a classical composer's attempt at incorporating the b3/3 swoop that defines blues and jazz? It's a fittingly "square" way of illustrating the duality. And what a strange trail if that were the case: classical adopts the b3 into its dialect, only to have it borrowed back by jazzers and rockers later. Just a conjecture.

Very interesting observation and analysis. In the early 20th century, there was a lot of juxtaposition of harmonies. Even a term, polytonality. This is a great insight that you have.

[klasaine]

COOL!

[daves561]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Very interesting observation and analysis. In the early 20th century, there was a lot of juxtaposition of harmonies. Even a term, polytonality. This is a great insight that you have.

Good call. The bitonality comment made me think of Jacques Ibert's Concertino da Camera for Alto Saxophone and 11 Instruments. I had the pleasure/challenge of accompanying a saxophonist on this a few years ago (playing the reduction on piano). The second movement has a very lush homophonic texture, and it occurred to me that there's gotta be some #9s in there or something. So I pulled out the score and was not disappointed. This piece was published in 1935, which is later than the Ravel, but the chords are more absolute in their #9-ness. Check it out:



(Larghetto: quarter note = 60)

(Note also the saxophone is in alto clef, so subtract a sixth or add a minor third to coordinate with the piano.)

The first chord is straight-up Hendrix! A really neat piece if you have the time to Rhapsody it.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by daves561

(Note also the saxophone is in alto clef, so subtract a sixth or add a minor third to coordinate with the piano.)

The first chord is straight-up Hendrix! A really neat piece if you have the time to Rhapsody it.

Wow! Even in the same key as Purple Haze (well, not really since Hendrix tuned down a 1/2 step).

[OutlawSteph1975]

Out of curiosity, I looked through my Charlie Christian songbook and didn't see it. The great majority of his early bebop material was triads, slash chords, and seventh chords, with occasional extensions.

[Chefacaster]

Kenny Burrell... Midnight Blue.

Also, if you take that Hendrix shape and change the root from the "e" on the 5th string to the b flat on the sixth string you'll have a dom 13th chord. There substitutions for each other and have been in jazz since Charlie Parker (It's in the intro to All the Things you are). I'm sure it's all over in Classical music as well.