Connecting Scales?

[mikespe]

Ok...I learn all these scale shapes (boxes) but trying to connect them confuses me. How do I go about connecting the scales patterns I have learned...for now I'll stick to pentatonic minor but I might need help with the others.

Thanks

[Telenator]

There isn't an actual "right way" to do this that I know of. I had a very good teacher who once told me to take the first 5 notes of the major scale and play them in the same key all over the neck, but to use different forms of the scale. He said, "don't look at this as a scale. Look at it as an idea." After a couple weeks of fumbling around I began to grasp what he meant.

When you can identify the same 5 note run in several places and forms all over the neck, you now have a place you know can go to and then combine, or expand on.

Thinking in terms of full length scale patterns can make a player start to sound very predictable.

I might also suggest you start with the major scale. Do it long enough and the origins and true richness of those minors suddenly become obvious.

[ddewerd]

One thing that can help is to realize that - especially easy with the pentatonics - is that it's all the same up and down the neck. The thing that screws with you in particular is that pesky B string tuning, meaning it throws you off because it's tuned back a fret vs the other strings, so the pattern is not as obvious.

So look at the 5 notes of the pentatonic, and pay particular attention to the root note, and the relative position of the other notes to the root (above/below/behind/next). You're probably familiar with the standard "box". Well that box appears over and over up and down the neck. The relative position of the notes in the scale doesn't change.

I've attached a couple of jpg files that show this. I was taught (a looooooong time ago) to think of the 12 frets being divided into 5 positions (I have a specific use of the word position, which may vary from others). All of these positions just repeat the 5 note pentatonic pattern. So you can move up and down by changing strings, or by moving up and down on the same string. You then find your familiar patterns, repeated everywhere.

As an example, you probably know 1st position (e.g. in key of A, starting on 5th fret). Well, the same pattern repeats it self almost perfectly in 4th position, except that it's shifted down a string and up 7 frets.

To string them together, you play only parts of a position and move to the next. Some examples are:

- Play 1st position, and then slide into 2nd on the G string, and play the "house" pattern on the e,B,G strings of 2nd position.
- The standard box appear at the E,A,D strings of 3rd position, which can then be slid into 4th position from the D string.
- Same with 5th position, you can slide from the box on the E,A strings back into 1st position

To play the major pentatonic, just slide the starting point of the position back 3 frets - the patterns stays the same. But you have to now know that the root note's position has changed. Practice the difference between the minor and major by playing the 5 notes from root to root. Even though the pattern is the same, the starting and ending points is different.

A couple of comments about my charts:
- Slide3 shows just the major and minor pentatonics
- Slide2 is the same as Slide3, but with a couple of added notes in. I refer to them as "minor" and "Major" which is not technically accurate, but should be interpreted as extra notes you can add when playing the minor or Major scale to make it sound more interesting. Once you've mastered the minor and Major pentatonics, you can start adding in additional notes.
- Slide4 shows all the notes within these scales, so again it's not technically accurate to call them pentatonic. This shows you even more "extra" notes you can add. It's also handy when learning something like the CAGED system, or trying to figure out the relative notes of a chord (for example, taking every 1-3-5 combination shows different chord shapes for that major chord).

Hope this helps. Once you connect the dots and can move a scale between positions, you'll start to see how the fret board is laid out. Then you'll see how chords fit into the layout of the notes.

Cheers,
Doug

[Leon Grizzard]

This is not so useful for pure pentatonics, but three note per string patterns are useful for connecting positions. By shifting your hand or reaching down or up a fret you can spider crawl across the fingerboard into a new position. Here is an example of a G run:

                                                  
------------------------------10-12-15--
----------------------8-10-12-----------
------------------7-9-------------------
------------5-7-9-----------------------
--------5-7-----------------------------
--3-5-7---------------------------------

[Sargeslide]

You also need to understand that One scale or shape runs into the other! The end of one is the beginning of the next one. Look at the Mixolydian Mode or scale in "G". The notes it has on the 5th fret are the same notes as A Aeolian on the 5th fret. They all plug into one another in a logical order, one right after another. I would tell you to learn the shape by name. Locrian, Dorian and so on. Then you use the root note to begin that shape and move on thru the shapes up the neck- Now you are playing modes. The shapes are all the same, but played in different places to create diffrent tonal centers (sounds like I know what I am doing!), Phygrian gives a Spanish sound (try this shape when playing the lead to Starway to Heaven to hear some amazing lead) Mixolydian is major (think Grateful Dead), as is Locrian. Dorian ( ZEP and Santana) and Aeolian sound minor ( Am pentatonic scale). Once you see the patterns and hear the sounds- you will fly all over the fretboard. I have played a long time but only in the last few years have I started to understand modes and scales. Here's the cool thing, if you already know the pents, you already know the modes. They are just missing two notes! You can still play the bejesus out of them like the pros and use them in a infinite number of ways. SOmeone on here had a sheet that superimposed the pents on the modes, it would really clear things up for you.

And no, I cannot read music.

Sargeslide

[ryokan]

There are 5 areas of the fretboard, each one has a "box" scale. They always flow in the same order. Once you've learned those 5 patterns, and which one comes first, second, third, etc... then you've got it. Also, when you get to 5, the next pattern is 1. So, its a huge circular pattern. Learn those 5 patterns, get them in your soul, and you will be a long way ahead. I find that a lot of folks know only one of the 5 patterns -- and then get frustrated when it isn't connecting. That's what happened to me when I was younger, a guitar teacher showed me a "box" scale, but it was only 1 of the 5. I thought that it was THE scale, not just a portion of the entire scale. Screwed me up for years!

[mikespe]

Originally Posted by ryokan

There are 5 areas of the fretboard, each one has a "box" scale. They always flow in the same order. Once you've learned those 5 patterns, and which one comes first, second, third, etc... then you've got it. Also, when you get to 5, the next pattern is 1.

I know 3 of the patterns no problem...but like mentioned in my Learning the fretboard thread, that B string screws me up on the other 2 patterns. Where i get confused with the patterns is I know them starting with this pattern:

 -------------------------------5--8---------------
-------------------------5--8---------------------
-------------------5--7---------------------------
-------------5--7---------------------------------
-------5--7---------------------------------------
-5--8---------------------------------------------

Then I can build the rest. But if I don't start with this pattern then I am lost!

[Telenator]

In all seriousness you're doing yourself a grave dis-service by starting with the pent minor. The pent minor, like all other scales, and music in general are derived from the major scale. Learning the major scale first, and it's positions will unlock the answers to so many questions you haven't even though to ask yet.

Everything you need to know is right here:

E-----------7------8--------------------------
B------------------8------------10-------------
G-----------7-------------9-----10-------------
D-----------7-------------9-----10------------
A-----------7-------8-----------10------------
E-------------------8-----------10------------

It all repeats itself all over the fretboard.

You show great signs of initiative in wanting to learn more about your instrument and you seem unafraid to put in the effort it takes. Put that effort in a direction that will yield you proper return.

Learning from the standpoint of using your pent minors as your foundation might help you play a few little tricks on the guitar more quickly but you'll spend a lot of time trying to unlearn these bad habits if you ever get serious about playing in the future.

Take it from someone who was lured down the pentatonic path himself. It's a nasty little detour on the road to righteous playing.

[boneyguy]

One important aspect is to begin to recognize interval shapes and begin moving those around the fretboard. For instance in the A min pent scale the most important 'landmark' interval is the minor third between the root A and the C from the scale.

You will notice that there are only 2 possible ways of playing a min 3rd interval. On one string (horizontal) and on 2 strings (vertical) These are the interval shapes you want to start moving around and become very familiar with. Why? Because this is foundation of the A min pent scale. When you can move this interval around to all the different locations on the fretboard you can then begin to visualize and add the other intervals (notes) from the scale at all the various places on the fretboard. But first you need to begin to see the geometry of it all, the basic interval shapes.

HORIZONTAL MIN. 3RD. Since they are played on only one string they are not affected by the interval distance between the G and B string. In other words horizontal intervals always have the same shape regardless of where you play them on the neck.

||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

VERTICAL MIN 3RD. Vertical intervals are affected by the G to B interval. There will be 2 distinct Min 3rd shapes as shown below.

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Now notice that in the Amin pent at the 5th fret that you have both types of this min 3rd interval, horizontal and vertical.

||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|-- ---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-C-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Once you become familiar with how to find all the A - C intervals, horizontal and vertical, around the fretboard you have your foundation for adding in the geometry of the other surrounding intervals of the scale. You could add the note D from the A min pent scale for instance and practice locating A - C - D in all possible places on the fretboard.

This is also a very practical way to learn note names on the fretboard.

This method of seeing interval shapes all over the fretboard rather than whole scales 'boxes' is much more useful and practical for the purposes of moving around the fretboard I think and can be applied to any scale, arpeggio etc.

[Telenator]

Better check that 3rd diagram boneguy. I don't know if it was your intention to introduce the major 3rd and 7th into that scale or not but, it doesn't quite fit what you're saying.

[kludge]

It's important to learn scales as SCALES, not as fingering patterns. First, just ditch those one-position, two-octave exercises everyone learns. They're junk, useless distractions. Try learning scale FRAGMENTS... say, three to six note patterns. That's how we really play anyway. Then when you practice a pattern, practice it in every possible location on the neck.

Take this fragment: C-D-E-F-G. Start on the low E string. First play with your pinky on the low C. Then your middle finger, then your index finger. Viola, three different fingerings of the same scale fragment, in one location! Now move it to the A string and repeat the exercise. It's sort of the same fingerings, but you can use open strings too. Now take it up an octave and start on the D string, then the G string, then up another octave and start on the B string.

This is a different way of thinking. Rather than trying to "connect" scales, you're learning to play the same scale in all its different locations. It'll really help open up the fretboard for you.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Telenator

Better check that 3rd diagram boneguy. I don't know if it was your intention to introduce the major 3rd and 7th into that scale or not but, it doesn't quite fit what you're saying.

My bad. Thanks for catching that. It's my first attempt at using that diagram feature and it was less then smooth sailing.

I'v edited it but I lost a fret on the high E and I don't know how to get it back. Oh well.

[markw51]

I found that if you can play, for example the pentatonic minor scale in 3 different positions for each key, that's all you really need for that scale and that's all most players, including the pros, generally use.

Its all the same notes anyway just played in different positions and jumping or sliding from one position to another just takes some practice.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by kludge

It's important to learn scales as SCALES, not as fingering patterns. First, just ditch those one-position, two-octave exercises everyone learns. They're junk, useless distractions. Try learning scale FRAGMENTS... say, three to six note patterns. That's how we really play anyway. Then when you practice a pattern, practice it in every possible location on the neck.

Take this fragment: C-D-E-F-G. Start on the low E string. First play with your pinky on the low C. Then your middle finger, then your index finger. Viola, three different fingerings of the same scale fragment, in one location! Now move it to the A string and repeat the exercise. It's sort of the same fingerings, but you can use open strings too. Now take it up an octave and start on the D string, then the G string, then up another octave and start on the B string.

This is a different way of thinking. Rather than trying to "connect" scales, you're learning to play the same scale in all its different locations. It'll really help open up the fretboard for you.

I agree completely. This is the point I was making in my example as well.

[mikespe]

Originally Posted by kludge

Take this fragment: C-D-E-F-G. Start on the low E string. First play with your pinky on the low C. Then your middle finger, then your index finger. Viola, three different fingerings of the same scale fragment, in one location! Now move it to the A string and repeat the exercise. It's sort of the same fingerings, but you can use open strings too. Now take it up an octave and start on the D string, then the G string, then up another octave and start on the B string.

This is a different way of thinking. Rather than trying to "connect" scales, you're learning to play the same scale in all its different locations. It'll really help open up the fretboard for you.

I like this idea and it makes sense. I have a book called 12-Bar Blues Riffs and when I look at the riffs most of them don't go all the way ACROSS the fretboard...usually only part way across then maybe up or down the neck. But I am assuming you are doing this based on KEYS though? You mean pick 5-6 notes in a particular KEY then find them in ONE octave, correct?

Thanks

[kludge]

Originally Posted by mikespe

I like this idea and it makes sense. I have a book called 12-Bar Blues Riffs and when I look at the riffs most of them don't go all the way ACROSS the fretboard...usually only part way across then maybe up or down the neck. But I am assuming you are doing this based on KEYS though? You mean pick 5-6 notes in a particular KEY then find them in ONE octave, correct?

Thanks

Right. And then do that same exercise, same scale fragment, in all twelve keys. Note that the shift point where you need to go up an octave changes from key to key.

Also, work on arpeggios as well as scales. I find arpeggios MUCH more musically useful most of the time. And find scale/arpeggio fragments that go up or down a certain distance with a certain number of notes - for example, find different ways to go up one octave in five notes. I find myself doing things like C-E-G-A-C a lot - very musical. Once you get into this, you can start slipping in chromatic tones. A classic example of this is the "bop scale", which is just a major scale with an added b7. That makes a one-octave scale run nine notes rather than 8, so it's rhythmically more useful... C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B-C. Try it!

[mikespe]

Originally Posted by kludge

Also, work on arpeggios as well as scales. I find arpeggios MUCH more musically useful most of the time.

You could say I use arpeggios a lot too by holding chords and playing several individual notes in that chord...yea I know not EXACTLY an arpeggio but the results are the same musically...at least to ME it is!

[Telenator]

To quote myself, I agree with you guys on the 5 note approach. Not pentatonic mind you, but the first 5 notes of the major scale for starters.

Originally Posted by Telenator

I had a very good teacher who once told me to take the first 5 notes of the major scale and play them in the same key all over the neck, but to use different forms of the scale. He said, "don't look at this as a scale. Look at it as an idea." After a couple weeks of fumbling around I began to grasp what he meant.

When you can identify the same 5 note run in several places and forms all over the neck, you now have a place you know can go to and then combine, or expand on.

Thinking in terms of full length scale patterns can make a player start to sound very predictable.

I might also suggest you start with the major scale. Do it long enough and the origins and true richness of those minors suddenly become obvious.

[kludge]

Yeah, what Telenator said! Especially the part about how it'll make major versus minor all the more clear.

Something I learned from drumming that many guitarists miss is the importance of the LENGTH of a phrase. When you start to play something, you should already know how many beats (or beat subdivisions) the phrase will be, how many notes will be played in the phrase, and what the first and last notes will be. THIS is what governs the notes in the middle, not some "scale" fingerings! Allegiance to the scale rather than the time makes many guitar solos sound awkward and unmusical.

Here's an example... practice a one-octave scale run, and it'll show up in your solos. Now, start that one-octave scale on the downbeat and play it as eighth notes. Where does it end? The solid downbeat of the next bar? No, it ends on the last eighth note of the first bar - severely syncopated! If you end it there, it sounds clumsy and inconclusive - like you ended too early. But follow the "scale" habit to get it to work rhythmically, and you end on the second rather than the tonic - out of harmony! Oops.

So a one-bar, eighth-note run is really NINE notes, not eight. In order to sound musical, you want a nine-note phrase where the first and last notes are both strong chord tones. Scales are all right for fragments of that, but for a complete-sounding phrase you need something other than a scale.

Literate drummers are very systematic about this - they have rudiments to provide them with clean phrases of specific length. You can learn a lot by taking drum rudiments and turning them into picking exercises.

At any rate, this is where you can put clear logic behind "connecting scales". Start with learning this relatively short, fixed-length phrases (dare I call them licks?). Then, you connect them at the beginning and end of the phrases - just shift from one position to the next, in time with the music, as Phrase A ends and Phrase B begins. Again, time matters here... how far you need to move on the neck governs how long it will take and how neatly it can be done. If you need to move your hand across several strings, or up and down several frets, give yourself a beat or so to do it. Alway strive for smoothness... the listener shouldn't hear your position shift.

[Leon Grizzard]

Here are a few examples of what you can do to connect a
couple of minor pentatonic positions.  To go from your basic blues box in G


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up to this position (shown just on top strings):	

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use the notes on the G string to make the shift as shown below. 
 You can slide up to the 7th fret, playing the middle note
 on the G string or not.  You can slide up with either 
the 2d, 3d, or 4th finger, but if you use 3 or 4 you’ll 
have to shift your left hand up a little more as you 
work across the B and E strings.  Alternatively, 
you could finger the three notes on the G string 
with 1, 2 and 4, or any other way you want to.
  The five fret reach is very useful for moving between 
positions.

	
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To move up to the next position:

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slide or reach up with your 3d finger to the 10th fret on the E string.

You can get back down to the 6th fret position by sliding, or by using
 a five fret reach on the E string like this, with the 4th finger playing
 the 10th fret:

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