Examples of out-of-phase sound?

[Alpino_321]

I've read a lot about in-phase/out-of-phase pickups around here and I'm sure I've heard them both a million times without realizing it. It's sometimes hard for me to distinguish what's coming from the guitar and what's coming from a pile of effects. Could somebody nail it down for me by pointing out a song or solo that is a good example? Based on nothing more than my imagination, I would guess that the solo on Steely Dan's "Do It Again" is out-of-phase, but I wouldn't bet on it. Also, is the Stratty "quack" I've read about related to phase? I realize that this is probably my fourth "stupid question" thread in a row and thank you all in advance for your continued patience.

[Jim.Collins]

Some of the more well known, out of phase sounds belonged to Peter Green, during his years with Fleetwood Mac. Once you hear it, you will know what out of phase sounds like -- quite nasally. If the guitar has a volume and/or tone control for each pickup, the out of phase sounds can be altered, significantly, by changing the volume and/or tone of each pickup.

Strats are not normally wired out of phase. The quack you hear is just two single coil pickups, in parallel, but in phase with each other.

[do not be afraid]

Originally Posted by Jim.Collins

Strats are not normally wired out of phase. The quack you hear is just two single coil pickups, in parallel, but in phase with each other.

well… that all depends on what you mean by "in phase." Stratocaster pickups are almost always wired electrically "in phase", but, they're never truly "in phase" — both pickups are picking up the signal from a different point in the "phase" of the vibration of the strings, and so the two resulting waveforms are "out-of-phase" with one another, and the "quack" you hear is the resulting phase-cancellation. you can hear this on any two pickups on any guitar, and in any humbucker. wiring two pickups out-of-phase really just sends them even more out of phase than they'd normally be, resulting in an even more severe phase-cancellation (or "quack") — and, actually, if the two waveforms were completely in-phase to begin with, they'd cancel each other out entirely, and you'd hear nothing!

[bluesy]

The solo on "Do It Again" is a Coral electric sitar. Prince's "When You Were Mine" is a good example of a funky out of phase rhythm track.

[halfalien]

When I swapped a humbucker into my neck position, my tech wired the middle position to be out of phase, so I am pretty familiar with that type of tone. At first, I wasn't happy that my middle position no longer sounded like the classic Tele tone, but since I love funk music and love playing it, the out of phase tone has really grown on me.

I don't know for sure, but to my ears, some of the guitar parts -- particularly the solo -- that John Frusciante does on "Mellowship Slinky in B Minor" (from BloodSugarSexMagik) are great examples of the out of phase tone. Funky-ass stuff!

[CIM]

Originally Posted by Alpino_321

I would guess that the solo on Steely Dan's "Do It Again" is out-of-phase, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If you want to know more about one way to get *that* sound (electric sitar) out of a tele, check out this thread which has an audio demo clip link in it - and which is nothing to do with out of phase wiring of course.

Real out of phase wired pickups on a tele creates a nasal hollow sound which I have never found a use for - most tele players would consider out of phase pickups to be a wiring error!

As someone has already mentioned, the so called out-of-phase sounds in positions 2 & 4 on a Strat are something else entirely. They have an distinctive sound to them which once you are familiar with it, is easy to spot in recordings.

One other place I have come across out of phase wiring is on a couple of cheap P-J basses which had half the precision split pickup in phase with the jazz pickup and the other half out of phase! This meant that with both pickups on, the out of phase half lost all the low end as the phase cancelling is more absolute for lower frequencies which have less phase shift than higher overtones (oops, got technical there )

[Vizcaster]

'fraid makes a good point. Sometimes you read interviews with artists who say they like the "out of phase sound" and their guitar techs are probably too polite to correct them. I've heard the term (mis-)applied to the discovery of the "in between" positions on a three-way Strat switch. There is some phase cancellation going on there, but the majority of the string's tone is in phase.

On the other hand, for a truly out of phase sound, you need to have the guitar rewired for that option. One example (non Tele, sorry) is BB King's Live at the Regal which has a very nasal sound compared to the current sound from that guitar great. The sound on those albums is so nasal that it sounds like out of phase wiring (I read somewhere that BB had out of phase wiring early on, now he uses a Varitone tone circuit).

OK now for the sleeping pill: If two pickups that have some distance between them are out of phase, then the fundamental and the first few harmonics will tend to get cancelled out, whereas the highest harmonics that you didn't hear before will become more apparent. Think of the wave forms on the string. The fundamental is one big arc from the nut to the bridge; the first harmonic is shaped like a sine wave with the string up from the nut to the 12th fret and down from there to the bridge; each harmonic after that would have more waves getting shorter and shorter. When the wavelength is short enough so the string vibrates up over one pickup and down over another, that part of the sound would ordinarily be canceled out if the pickups are in phase. Since the timbre of an instrument is a function of which harmonics are loud and which ones are soft, you can drastically alter the sound of the guitar by wiring the pickups out of phase. If the two pickups are close together, then only the highest frequencies would be coming through, so much so that the adjacent coils in a humbucker would be very weak and tinny if wired out of phase (remember the magnets are also reversed in a standard humbucker so the coils are electrically out of phase as far as hum is concerned but musically in phase as far as their operation as a generator/pickup of the string's sound).

By the way it is possible to get hum-cancelling operation with two single coil pickups; if they have the same magnet orientation then you have to reverse the phase of one pickup. When you combine them you'll get the nasal sound but it will be hum-canceling. By the same token if you take a humbucker and reverse the phase you lose the hum-canceling property.

[TG]

James Burton's tele in the '50s was out of phase when both pups were on. I guess Fender back then didn't worry about having them in phase since the 'official' wiring didn't include the both-on setting. You had to re-wire or do the 'inbetween' switch trick.
You can hear his out of phase both-on sound on Ricky Nelson's 'Travellin' Man'.

[telefunk]

[quote=Vizcaster;951984]'fraid makes a good point. Sometimes you read interviews with artists who say they like the "out of phase sound" and their guitar techs are probably too polite to correct them.
I remember when I was a kid, one of the guitar players in my older brother's band had a strat which was modified with a toggle switch which reversed the phase of the middle pickup. To my ears the 'out of phase' sound in position 2 and 4 sounded like crap.

[thunderbyrd]

listen to pretty much any Robert Cray recording. he seems to use the "out of phase" tone all the time.

[Hucklebilly]

Here are two example that should give you a pretty good contrast. I recorded these with the same tele, same equipment, the only difference is in the first clip the bridge and neck pickups are wired normally, and in the second clip they are out of phase. This was back when I had a 5-way switch set up, and I kind of liked the out-of-phase setting, but eventually I went back to the simplicity of the original set up.

In phase

Out of phase

[boris bubbanov]

Hucklebilly, I think you nailed the difference with those two recordings; that's an excellent illustration of the 'out of phase' sound.

I've heard that sound called nasal or funky, but to me it is 'airy'; and to my ears at least I can read the notes individually, the extra clarity is there, in exchange for the loss of output.


Bubbanov

[stevieboy]

T Bone Walker

[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by Hucklebilly

Here are two example that should give you a pretty good contrast. I recorded these with the same tele, same equipment, the only difference is in the first clip the bridge and neck pickups are wired normally, and in the second clip they are out of phase. This was back when I had a 5-way switch set up, and I kind of liked the out-of-phase setting, but eventually I went back to the simplicity of the original set up.

In phase

Out of phase

Thanks for the clips. Nice illustration and great playing.

[giginthesky]

dire straits. that's the sound.

[giginthesky]

bridge and middle pickup.

[Old Cane]

I have a Dean with the 2 humbuckers wired (factory) out of phase in the center position. I hate it. I like the way a LP is wired and after nearly 30 years you'd think I would have fixed it. To me it's thin and useless. Out of phase is not "in between" (2nd and 4th position for you children that were born since the 5-way switch) as a lot of folks have posted here. I liken it to having a woofer go out on your stereo speaker and you have of course wired your speakers wrong. It's painful if it's loud. I can usually tell right away when something is out of phase because my sinuses hurt and I hear words coming out of my mouth that are generally not acceptable on forums.

[SixStringSlinger]

Originally Posted by Old Cane

I have a Dean with the 2 humbuckers wired (factory) out of phase in the center position. I hate it. I like the way a LP is wired and after nearly 30 years you'd think I would have fixed it. To me it's thin and useless. Out of phase is not "in between" (2nd and 4th position for you children that were born since the 5-way switch) as a lot of folks have posted here. I liken it to having a woofer go out on your stereo speaker and you have of course wired your speakers wrong. It's painful if it's loud. I can usually tell right away when something is out of phase because my sinuses hurt and I hear words coming out of my mouth that are generally not acceptable on forums.

Um...

Welcome to the TDPRI !

[GuitarJonz]

Originally Posted by Hucklebilly

Here are two example that should give you a pretty good contrast. I recorded these with the same tele, same equipment, the only difference is in the first clip the bridge and neck pickups are wired normally, and in the second clip they are out of phase. This was back when I had a 5-way switch set up, and I kind of liked the out-of-phase setting, but eventually I went back to the simplicity of the original set up.

In phase

Out of phase

Yes, thats what I think of when I think of out-of phase, nice clips. To further compound this, I assume that your clip is out of phase when the pickups are wired in parallel. I've seen some switches where they also offer the two pickups wired in series, but also out of phase. To me, that would sound like a more ballsy out of phase, not thin, as some perceive parallel & out of phase. Anyone have comparison of out of phase, both parallel & series??

[AlFo]

Guitar fetish do a 'super strat' wiring kit which allows you to have each pick up on individually as well as out of phase with the others. http://store.guitarfetish.com/bl3supiwikit.html

I just wired mine up and it really is rather cool to have all those sounds available. I never really knew what out of phase was though and listening to the 'out of phase' sound clip above I now recognise it.

[giginthesky]

i always thought 2 & 4 where out of phase. i learned something new today. guess i have a lot of growing up to do.

[Hucklebilly]

Originally Posted by GuitarJonz

Yes, thats what I think of when I think of out-of phase, nice clips. To further compound this, I assume that your clip is out of phase when the pickups are wired in parallel. I've seen some switches where they also offer the two pickups wired in series, but also out of phase. To me, that would sound like a more ballsy out of phase, not thin, as some perceive parallel & out of phase. Anyone have comparison of out of phase, both parallel & series??

Hmmm.... I'll have to check on that. I honestly can't remember whether they were parallel or in series. I've got some notes at home. I'll have go dig those out.

[Hucklebilly]

OK. I found the wiring schematic. It came from a Dan Armstrong column in the Sept. 1996 issue of Guitar Player entitled "Super Slick Telecaster 6-Way."

Armstrong uses the tone control to get additional sounds out of a 5-way switch.

With the tone control turned up:
1. Bridge (+)
2. Bridge and neck parallel in phase
3. Neck
4. Bridge and neck parallel out of phase
5. Bridge

With the tone control turned down:
1. Neck and bridge series in phase
2. Neck only
3. Neck only (tone control works normally)
4. Same as position 2
5. Bridge and neck series out of phase


Now the bad news is that I can't remember whether the pickups were series or parallel. I will say that the out of phase setting I used did not have a big drop off in volume from the normal in phase setting. Whether that's more typical of series or parallel I don't know.