swamp ash pickup question alnico 5 or 2

[copperheadroad]

i just finish a couple projects strat and tele,both with a swamp ash body and ebony board
http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/s...=26875&page=2-
http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/s...ad.php?t=24898
the tele has a 1/4" maple top all with alnico 5 pickups the strat has very nice cleans very bright overdrive is not quite so nice, i was just wondering if a wound alnico 2 pickups would it smooth-en the tone a little bit, not be so bright even though it sounds pretty good so if you would go with a alnico 2 pickup would you over wind it

[Telenator]

If the guitar tends to be bright and you have good quality pickups in it already, then it will just be kinda bright. You can try setting the pickups lower for a more compressed sound that sometimes helps.

Alnico II can sound a bit dull in a guitar that tends to be bright because there's a lack of low end to fill out the sound spectrum. You end up with squashed highs and not much in the low end department.

You can try a set of SD 5/2 pickups where the alnico 5 helps keep the lows crisp and tight while the alnico 2 helps smooth the highs.

One thing for sure is, you're going to be swapping stuff around for a while. If you've got the wallet, time and stomach for this, you might find a clear answer but the chances of asking for advice and nailing the sound you're looking for are very slim at best.

Have you considered simply buying a guitar that sounds exactly the way you like it right off the rack? They're out there. And in the long run cost a lot less than "chasing your tone."

[Wally]

Telenator, this is the first time I have ever heard/read that backing pickups away from the strings will 'compress' the sonics. IN fact, the sonics become more articulate and transparent when the pickups are backed away from the strings. When the pickups are closer to the strings; the output is increased, things get thicker and more powerful, and there is more of a chance that this will cause an amp to compres. That is my experience.

Copperheadroad, welcome. Swamp ash body, ebony board, alnico 5's....bound to yield some cutting tone, I would think. What value pots did you use? Tone cap? What amp and what settings? Just curious.....

[Telenator]

Wally, when you're talking single coil Telecaster pickups, the output is so weak that they don't even begin to push the front end of the amp.

When I use the term "compression" I mean that as you lower the pickups the strings are playing on a wider, less focused magnetic field thereby "smooting out" (compressing) the sound from the guitar. As you raise the pickups, and each magnet gets closer to the string above it, than the string next to it, the pickups tend to become more articulate, more dynamic and less "smooth" or compressed. The focus gets tighter.

Lowering the pickups also has the added advantage of better amp compression because you have to turn the amp up louder when the pickups are low to get the same volume out of it. The harder you push the amp, the more it compresses. Lower pickups are better for your tuning as well.

[Wally]

Telenator, we'll have to disagree here. IME, articulation improves with lowering the pickups....decreasing the output. Compression increases by raising the pickups...increasing the output.
I will agree that weaker single coils....read: stock Fender single coils.....don't push an amp the way a more powerful pickup does.
Many people these days equate 'compression' with smoothing out or balancing the output of the individual poles. That is not compression....it is one effect of compression but it is not all of what compression is about. Compression is the 'capping' of the peak of the signal then releasing the signal without ever exceeding the 'cap'. IN mild compression, this will 'smooth' the output....that is to take the peak off of the output of certain hot strings...plain G on staggered FEnder pickups intended for wound G's...and allow the other strings to rise to that output cap, thus smoothing or balancing the output. IN strong compression, the capping effect is effective on the entire output and sustain is born when the voltage is released as the amp's circuit catches up to the demand of the signal on the circuit.
I am going to think that what you are hearing when you back the strings away is a balancing or smoothing that might take place when that hot string is weakend enough not to stand out from the others. This is imho not a real result, but weakening that hot string can fool the ear somewhat. Otherwise, the output of all of the strings is weakened when the pickup is backed off.
When you raise a pickup, the magnetic field comes closer to all strings and output increases. The sonics get thicker. This is the opposite of 'more articulate'. IT is less transparent, thicker, less articulate.....unless one has a bass cut on their guitar such as my 'strat' build(not strat pickups but SD lil '59 in series/parallel switching and 2 duckbuckers.) and then one can increase the articulation by cutting the mud out of that powerful signal.

[Tony Reid]

Just to add another opinion into the mix;-
To my ear Alnico 3 pickups go very nicely with swamp ash guitars. Alnico 3 has less of the high frequency 'rattle' where you hear the extraneous noises of the string windings on the frets, and other high pitched components of the sound. Alnico 3, like alnico 2 has less of the potentially harsh highs, less of a scooped mid sound (depending on the pickup's output) and a smoother transition from mids to treble. However, Al 3 gives a bit more 'grit' to the bridge pickup sound than Al 2, and even Al 5. Other factors to consider are the type of coil wire - formvar or PE; staggered magnets or not staggered; high or low output of the pickup (i.e. 'stock' wind, underwound or overwound).
Basically, if you are fussy and have a certain sound in mind, it may take you several sets of pickups to get there. Enjoy the journey.

[Telenator]

Wally, I think we're hung up in semantics. It's OK. But back to the OP's concerns, I think we can both agree that lowering the pickups would be one way help to smooth the sound out.

[Wally]

copperheadroad, my apologies for getting sidetracked there. IT all relates, though.
'Smoothing' the output is one reason why I like to run adjustable polepiece pickups....or adjust non-adjustable poles as players have been doing for years/decades.
In your situation, I would suggest starting by understanding the resonant peak of the pickups that you have. I am thinking that you will want to lower that freq no matter what direction you go in a pickup, and getting away from those Alnico 5's is probably a good thing. Ebony boards are bright and artiuclate The maple is bright and articulate. You may have to tame those tendencies by choosing your pickups carefully. You might also want ot measure the pots that you are using and make sure that you are as close to that 250K as you can get...not over at all if possible. One might even consider going to a larger value on the tone cap/s. ???
Another consideration woud be the choice of strings. A pure nickle strings will warm those guitars up. This would be cheaper than new pickups and might surprise you with the results. OF course, the plain strings are still stainless steel, so that high end won't change, will it? Back the pickup down on that side???
HEre's another useless observation. Maple can be a beautiful wood on a guitar, but there are probably some good reasons why it is rarely used as the only wood in a solidbody guitar body. Gibson's choice of maple over mahogany makes good use of the attributes of both of those woods....and the maple's sonics compliment the mahogany's
tendencies.
And...yes, overwinding will bring the resonant peak down and darken the tone. IT is one consideration among the other choices mentioned above.....magnet, wire, etc.