Robert Cray sound - why not so common?

[nosuch]

thin and sterile?
bullocks!
look and listen:

[Warren Pederson]

WHOA! that was freakin' beautiful

[TG]

I remember reading an interview with Jimmie Vaughan where he said, "If you don't like Robert Cray, you don't like Blues.

I don't like anything about Jimmie Vaughan's playing/tone either so I'm hardly going to take that comment too seriously.

thin and sterile?
bullocks!
look and listen:

I did and most of it was thin and sterile...even with the overdrive pedal on. Clumsy, choppy licks too. Insipid lyrics.

I've tried and tried to 'get' Robert Cray. But he somehow manages to make a great guitar sound like a plinky toy. Boring technique, bland lyrics, no feeling. Leaves me cold every time.
Blues muzak, IMO.

[Roli]

Those solos were fully improvised, not a boring mix of rehearsed riffs and licks. I like musicians that are able to create on the fly, where every little note and nuance has a musical meaning to it.

[Tonemaster]

Originally Posted by TG

I don't like anything about Jimmie Vaughan's playing/tone either so I'm hardly going to take that comment too seriously.



I did and most of it was thin and sterile...even with the overdrive pedal on. Clumsy, choppy licks too. Insipid lyrics.

I've tried and tried to 'get' Robert Cray. But he somehow manages to make a great guitar sound like a plinky toy. Boring technique, bland lyrics, no feeling. Leaves me cold every time.
Blues muzak, IMO.

Sounds like you have something stuck in your ear then,,but I am sure your tone is much better, not to mention your improvisational chops. Oh,,,did Fender pay you to play Namm as well??

Sheesh,,,some people's kids!


T.

[Tonemaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZj4pQgB5EQ


T.

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by TG

Clumsy, choppy licks too. Insipid lyrics.

I've tried and tried to 'get' Robert Cray. But he somehow manages to make a great guitar sound like a plinky toy. Boring technique, bland lyrics, no feeling. Leaves me cold every time.
Blues muzak, IMO.

What music do you like, TG?
Did you listen to it in HQ with a decent pair of speakers, btw?

[TG]

Originally Posted by Tonemaster

Sounds like you have something stuck in your ear then,,but I am sure your tone is much better, not to mention your improvisational chops. Oh,,,did Fender pay you to play Namm as well??

Sheesh,,,some people's kids!


T.

First of all, remember the Forum rules about respect. Any more crap like that and I'll report you to the mods.

Secondly, what in the world does my playing style, ability, tone or fame have to do with whether or not I like something? Would someone not be allowed to dislike Yngwie Malmsteen's music, for instance, unless they can pull off the same licks and fill concerts around the world? Dumb logic.
Nobody has to like Robert Cray just because you do. Unless, of course you reckon your taste is somehow superior to everyone elses' (which is basically the definition of a snob, by the way).

The OP was about why Robert Cray's sound isn't being copied by guitarists very much. Perhaps it's because not that many people like it.

What music do you like, TG?
Did you listen to it in HQ with a decent pair of speakers, btw?

I like lots of stuff. A few of the guitarists I do like to listen to, and wish I could play more like, are Jeff Beck, Roy B., Chet Atkins, Albert King, Peter Green, Cliff Gallup, George Harrison, Scotty Anderson, Richie Blackmore, Hank Marvin, Gary Moore (he's good...get over it), Derek Trucks, SRV, James Burton, Larry Carlton, Joe Bonamassa, Brian Setzer, Johnny Winter, early Billy Gibbons...can't think of any more off hand.
But I also don't like some players.
Which is which just happens....it has nothing to do with what I'm supposed to like and dislike. Same as with broccoli, sweet potato and carrots.

And I have heard some Robert Cray on a good stereo. Makes no difference...I just don't like his playing or the tones he tends to use. I bought Strong Persuader and gave it several goes....I cringed more and more each listen.
(I still have Strong Persuader if anybody wants it cheap...)

[Roli]

Originally Posted by TG

Nobody has to like Robert Cray just because you do. Unless, of course you reckon your taste is somehow superior to everyone elses' (which is basically the definition of a snob, by the way).

...

Gary Moore (he's good...get over it)

LMAO!

[Tonemaster]

Originally Posted by TG

First of all, remember the Forum rules about respect. Any more crap like that and I'll report you to the mods.

Secondly, what in the world does my playing style, ability, tone or fame have to do with whether or not I like something? Would someone not be allowed to dislike Yngwie Malmsteen's music, for instance, unless they can pull off the same licks and fill concerts around the world? Dumb logic.
Nobody has to like Robert Cray just because you do. Unless, of course you reckon your taste is somehow superior to everyone elses' (which is basically the definition of a snob, by the way).

The OP was about why Robert Cray's sound isn't being copied by guitarists very much. Perhaps it's because not that many people like it.



I like lots of stuff. A few of the guitarists I do like to listen to, and wish I could play more like, are Jeff Beck, Roy B., Chet Atkins, Albert King, Peter Green, Cliff Gallup, George Harrison, Scotty Anderson, Richie Blackmore, Hank Marvin, Gary Moore (he's good...get over it), Derek Trucks, SRV, James Burton, Larry Carlton, Joe Bonamassa, Brian Setzer, Johnny Winter, early Billy Gibbons...can't think of any more off hand.
But I also don't like some players.
Which is which just happens....it has nothing to do with what I'm supposed to like and dislike. Same as with broccoli, sweet potato and carrots.

And I have heard some Robert Cray on a good stereo. Makes no difference...I just don't like his playing or the tones he tends to use. I bought Strong Persuader and gave it several goes....I cringed more and more each listen.
(I still have Strong Persuader if anybody wants it cheap...)

[nosuch]

TG, I respect you have your own preferences, but strong persuader is from 1986.
OK, the Namm video was recent and you didn't like it either.
To each his own. I'm a fan, you are not. I can't stand listening to some of your heros, you can't stand Mr. Cray, who IMHO is one of the contemporary musicians with an exemplary sense of melody and space and a perfect sensibility to embed his guitar in group interaction. Something I miss grievously in some of the mentioned musicians play. To each his own ...

[Tonemaster]

Well put. Cray is the future elder statesman of the blues. Gary moore, for instance, is indeed a greta player, but him calling himself a "bluesman" really grates on me. He is no more blues than Link Wray was.(RIP Link)

T.

[TG]

Originally Posted by Roli

LMAO!

What's your problem Roli?

Gary Moore is a good guitar player. Are you disagreeing with that? I never said you or anybody else has to like him...just as I don't have to like Robert Cray....or that you have to consider Gary a 'bluesman'. I only put that comment there because of the automatic 'Gary Moore is crap' comments that people seem compelled to post on these threads (same as with shredding, John Mayer, SRV clones....).

How does that make me snobby?
Please explain.

[nosuch]

There's no arguing with taste. Please be patient, gentlemen.

[TG]

Originally Posted by nosuch

TG, I respect you have your own preferences, but strong persuader is from 1986.
OK, the Namm video was recent and you didn't like it either.
To each his own. I'm a fan, you are not. I can't stand listening to some of your heros, you can't stand Mr. Cray, who IMHO is one of the contemporary musicians with an exemplary sense of melody and space and a perfect sensibility to embed his guitar in group interaction. Something I miss grievously in some of the mentioned musicians play. To each his own ...

Did I say otherwise? To each his own indeed.

I don't expect people to agree with my views or my tastes. (And those players aren't my 'heroes', by the way. I'm not a kid.)
But I do take offense to people expecting me to agree with theirs, and being ridiculed...or patronised...for disagreeing is unacceptable. I expect better from this forum.

Incidentally, I have heard more recent Robert Cray. Still nuthin'...

[Roli]

Originally Posted by TG

What's your problem Roli?

Gary Moore is a good guitar player. Are you disagreeing with that? I never said you or anybody else has to like him...just as I don't have to like Robert Cray....or that you have to consider Gary a 'bluesman'. I only put that comment there because of the automatic 'Gary Moore is crap' comments that people seem compelled to post on these threads (same as with shredding, John Mayer, SRV clones....).

How does that make me snobby?
Please explain.

No problem here, keep up the show! lol

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by TG

Did I say otherwise? To each his own indeed.

well to be honest, you used some really rude words to describe your opinion about cray's music. unnecessary in my opinion. you shouldn't wonder that some people react somehow passionate and jump on it.

[TG]

Originally Posted by nosuch

well to be honest, you used some really rude words to describe your opinion about cray's music. unnecessary in my opinion. you shouldn't wonder that some people react somehow passionate and jump on it.

Perhaps. But no more rude' ('strong' is a better word) than the words people commonly use discussing many other players...such as poor Mr. Moore, for instance.

But the point is...I didn't say anything against any forum members, nor did I say people had to agree with me or be 'wrong'.
People didn't 'jump on it' in response, they jumped on 'me'.
That's different...and wrong.

[Tonemaster]

Originally Posted by TG

Perhaps. poor Mr. Moore, for instance.

Poor Mr. Moore,,,thats funny right there.

T.

[68 Shovelhead]

Originally Posted by Tonemaster

Poor Mr. Moore,,,thats funny right there.

T.

Sorry, that reminded me of a Tombstone from the movie "Tombstone"...

"Here lies Lester Moore
Four slugs from a .44
No Les No More."

As you were gentleman

[TelecasterSRRI]

Originally Posted by TG

I don't like anything about Jimmie Vaughan's playing/tone either so I'm hardly going to take that comment too seriously.

I've tried and tried to 'get' Robert Cray. But he somehow manages to make a great guitar sound like a plinky toy. Boring technique, bland lyrics, no feeling. Leaves me cold every time.

While neither Vaughan nor Cray are guys that a lot of us try to emulate as far as tone or style, I don't think it's a bad thing to hear something a little (or maybe a lot) different now and then. The thing about both of these players (and there are many others as well) is that they sound so unique that their audiences end up being similarly unique, or maybe "narrow"??

How many of us go to any blues/rock bar on a Saturday night and hear Guitar Player X pull out the "Stevie" sound? There are certain styles and/or sounds out there that are replicated either well or poorly all of the time. I think there are a lot of players that could do the Stevie thing much easier than they could Cray or Jimmie (or Jimi for that matter). There is something about the way that those three play that is so "them" that it is difficult to copy IMHO....or maybe it's just that nobody cares to try .....

In the case of Hendrix there are A LOT of people outside the guitar player's circle who I've seen cringe at his music, it's so out there, so JIMI that you either understand, appreciate and enjoy it or you don't. I think we might even be suprised at how many guitar players don't care for his music, or at least don't actually listen to an entire album all that often even if they still appreciate his musicianship. My wife calls all things Hendrix, noise plain and simple

By the way, I'm not trying to say that Cray and Jimmie are at all comparable, or in the same league as Hendrix--so don't everyone get their panties in a bunch. I'm merely stating that unique players or unique sounds are naturally not everyone's taste.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by nosuch

well to be honest, you used some really rude words to describe your opinion about cray's music. unnecessary in my opinion. you shouldn't wonder that some people react somehow passionate and jump on it.

I have to disagree with this. On this and many other fora, far too many people take such things far too personally. No one is talking about your mom, your wife or your kids. What does anyone care if another doesn't get their favorite artist. If I had a dime for everyone who's not gotten Delbert McClinton, I could retire.

If something someone else has written makes you angry, don't blame them, blame yourself. Your reaction is a choice.

Thin skin is really unattractive.

[frogger]

I look at the total package of the Cray performance and yes his tone may not suit everyone but I still like what he gives to the blues. Buddy Guy's guitar playing I must say I can't stand but I appreciate his contribution very much. Neil Young's playing gives me hives but again I respect what he has given us over the years. My point being " bend with the wind" and your eyes and ears have a new prespective.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by TG

What's your problem Roli?

Gary Moore is a good guitar player. Are you disagreeing with that?

Not my place to say if he's good or bad, but I can say he holds not a shred of appeal for me.

Pun intended.

[bingy]

No one has mentioned the rich patina that Robert is aquiring over the years...I much prefer him these days.
I thought his appearance on the Clapton Crossroads concert 07 was really great.
He is getting better, both playing and singing.

[nosuch]

eventually this (still interesting) discussion is coming back to the initial question: why do not more people use that "natural" tone, wether they try to emulate cray or not?

Simplified there seem to be two role models for guitar players today:
the "group player" who uses a rather natural sound and is into laying nice and original rhythm parts that blend into what the other players are doing. even when he takes a solo he is interacting with the fellow musicians, thus using a concept of tone which leaves enough space for the rhythm group to be clearly heard.

at the other end of the spectrum is the "guitar hero" who is interested in soloing, showing his skills. these guys are more likely to not pay too much attention to rhythm playing comping, use a loud and distorted tone to solo which leaves less space for any other musical event happening the same time so the emphasis is more on the soloist than on group interaction.

I am trying not to judge, but you know where my sympathy is.

there is a lot of grey between black and white ... and it's contrast that makes our live interesting.

this video pretty much demonstrates what I am trying to put in words:

[Warren Pederson]

Gary Moore just doesn't "get it". No purer example as the above video clip.

[TG]

Originally Posted by Warren Pederson

Gary Moore just doesn't "get it". No purer example as the above video clip.

'Didn't' get it. That was in the '90s and the whole point of his 'style' then was a mix of 1970/80s rock (which, let's face it, is where he came from), '80s shred (which was still fashionable) and 'blues'. He's often said since that he overplayed way too much at the time and that Albert King especially taught him to back off more with his tone and playing.

But I agree that Albert Collins' approach in the clip was way more suitable to the song.

[TG]

Originally Posted by petebradt

Not my place to say if he's good or bad, but I can say he holds not a shred of appeal for me.

Pun intended.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, and I'm not Gary Moore's publicity agent either. He not my favorite guitarist, in fact.
But this post does show a bit of what I hinted at previously. 'Shred'. What exactly is it and why is it always something to deride?
Lots of notes? Why is it acceptable if Danny Gatton plays fast and hard...or John McLaughlin...or Scotty Anderson...or a classical violinist...but is automatically 'bad music' if it happens within a 'rock guitar' context?

And most deriders (and I'm not assuming yourself Pete) have probably not even given the player in question a fair listen. Gary Moore has done loads of 'slow' music as well. Hasn't been heard by the naysayers, apparently.

Too many guitar forum views seem to be more based on what's considered fashionable...or cool...or credible...or whatever...than on people actually listening and making up their own minds.

I've listened to Robert Cray. Quite a bit of it.
I've listened to Jimmie Vaughan. I like his work in The Fabulous Thunderbirds. A lot.
But I simply do not rate either of them as solo guitar players, or rather, I don't like their playing personally. But at least I gave them a chance.

[nosuch]

TG, I think everybody got the idea. I could imagine that Cray and Moore look at each others music with respect. they are completely different, you could say the antipodes in contemporary blues-inspired music. still I believe they could go on stage together and have fun. while we are flaming each other here.
;-)

[nosuch]

so what do you guys think about my concept of "group player" vs. "guitar hero"?
wouldn't that be interesting to discuss?
which role model do you prefer?

[TG]

Originally Posted by nosuch

so what do you guys think about my concept of "group player" vs. "guitar hero"?
wouldn't that be interesting to discuss?
which role model do you prefer?

This should really be a separate thread in the Bad Dog.
However, it is a topic I've been 'into'. I'll try to discuss it without being too clumsy...

The past few years I've been in a number of new band situations where I've become a sort of 'default musical director' due to having the most band experience. Several of the other people involved either were new to it all or had been solo acoustic performers. They'd bash away the same as they were used to doing alone. I'd explain to them about considering the whole band as an instrument and just being a part of it, even if the bit you play is 'small' and would sound empty alone. I'd use a number of bands as examples of where the individual members did this instinctively (or maybe consciously...I don't know). Gene Vincent's BlueCaps, The Who, The Beatles, Red Hot Chilli Peppers and U2 are some examples, IMO.

But with a 'solo act' with one person's name on the album/billboard it's a bit different since they intend to be the center of attention. In that situation I'm guessing that the interaction dynamics will be a mix of the individual's own tendency and also who they 'hire' to back them (or play with them). I'm not sure whether the individual's volume or tone has any relationship to it though. (I didn't say it didn't...I'm just not sure.) Jeff Beck has had various members in his band over the years and the interaction seems to vary accordingly. Eric Clapton also seems to play differently depending on who he's with (check the Crossroads DVDs).

So I'm not sure if your 'group' and 'hero' classification is accurate, but within that context I aim to be a 'group' player. (And I play mostly clean...)

Listening, I probably haven't a preference. I like to listen to something or I don't, and I can't see any preference for either offhand.

[Tonemaster]

Originally Posted by petebradt

Not my place to say if he's good or bad, but I can say he holds not a shred of appeal for me.

Pun intended.

Pete, we NEVER agree on just about anything, but in this case, I got yer back. Moore is over the top all the time. Greta player, but not a team player, and definitely not a bluesman.
I really really dig Delbert also. He is an AMerican treasure.

T.

[68 Shovelhead]

Originally Posted by bingy

No one has mentioned the rich patina that Robert is aquiring over the years...I much prefer him these days.
I thought his appearance on the Clapton Crossroads concert 07 was really great.
He is getting better, both playing and singing.

I still feel the same, the guy is a fantastic singer, tons of feeling and a monster picker, but I have the urge to sneak around him and start twisting knobs on his amp! His tone has no body or dimension, but I stress that his playing is fantastic! At the end of the day I still like his music, but it would add a little something if the tone had more zipp.

[Warren Pederson]

Back to Gary Moore for a sec....Nobody could ever doubt his prowess as a guitar virtuoso. It's just that the guy doesn't have a speck of taste..... in any way, shape, or form IMO.

[tjalla]

Oh geez... let's not make Gary Moore the next "he-who-shall-not-be-named" now!

Here's more love for RC

[Warren Pederson]

.......ah..I can barely catch my breath recovering from that Poor Jonny clip. Freakin' Beautiful. Not too many people were put on the planet with that kind of talent. I think that a lot of guitar guys that don't get Robert Cray miss the part where Cray actually considers himself an R@B performer who gets the blues. I'm not a gigger but could you imagine playing out and the management throws that video on between your sets?

[Tonemaster]

Originally Posted by tjalla

Oh geez... let's not make Gary Moore the next "he-who-shall-not-be-named" now!

Too late. He did it all on his own!! I think Bob's tone spanked EC's n that clip. Pure Super Reverb and Strat tone!! Lace Sensors,,,yuck.

T.

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by Tonemaster

I think Bob's tone spanked EC's n that clip.

Not to mention his outfit. eric had a real peculiar taste for fashion then. purple suit and green shirt. he looks like a pimp.

[Roli]

Originally Posted by nosuch

Not to mention his outfit. eric had a real peculiar taste for fashion then. purple suit and green shirt. he looks like a pimp.

In showbiz, anything works that grabs one's attention.

.